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Madvillainy

On difficulty and learning-curves

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Do you remember how incredibly nerve-wreckingly difficult the Megaman games for NES were? Do you remember how many times you had to replay that first stage of Super Ghost N Ghouls before you got a hang of it? And if you did, you will also remember that the feeling of accomplishment in those games were great, even if we were never rewarded with any 15 minute CG sequence or anything like that. I have often asked myself why I think most (not all) modern video games suck and rarely brings forth the same feelings in me as they used to. After enjoying Ninja Gaiden II and Devil May Cry 4 I am now convinced that difficulty level is part of the answer. Because developers seem to be increasingly afraid of making their games "too difficult" in order to appeal to the great masses, hardcore gamers rarely get a challange worth mentioning. It seems like someone has confused the concept of "learning curve" with "difficulty"; while it is true that a game with too steep of a learning curve can seem daunting to a lot of players and make them tire of it quickly, it doesnt necessarily mean the game can be hard. Simple to learn, hard to master is my motto in game design and it just seems like most games today are simple to learn, simple to master. I think Ninja Gaiden 2 for the XBox 360 is a terrific example of good game design. The controls are so simple and logical that they immediately feel natural, yet the game is difficult enough that even the most hardcore gamer is guaranteed to die at least once. True, you do get frustrated, your palms do get sweaty and some of the harder bosses in the game are likely to have you exploding in cuss-words, but when you finally kill him you high-five your friends and jump around in joy. That´s what I felt like when I played the original Rockman. That´s what I felt like when I tried my first Cave shooter (it was Do-Don Pachi, I admit it) QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION: - Are games easier today than they used to be? If so, is this for better or worse? - How does the concept of learning curve relate to difficulty and what are your thoughts on these concepts? - Finally, is there any difficult game that has a special place in your heart? ( Just curious... ;D )

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As everyone here probably knows, I agree. As a player, challenge is the most attractive gameplay element for me. If the game can't present a challenge, it's worthless. And with greater challenge comes greater potential worth. It's a simple formula.

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Original post by Madvillainy
- Are games easier today than they used to be? If so, is this for better or worse?

Yes, beyound reason. Worse for me, better for someone else.

Some games with difficult settings are pretty decent. The Halo series and other shooters allow players to fight the good fight on the highest setting.

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How does the concept of learning curve relate to difficulty and what are your thoughts on these concepts?

You can disconnect the initial learning curve from the general difficulty with progressive difficulty (for linear games) and tutorial modes (for everything). In-game help, tool tips, and other similar features also provide assistance.

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- Finally, is there any difficult game that has a special place in your heart? ( Just curious... ;D )

Just old ones, like the NES Ninja Gaiden series. With modern gaming, I usually get my challenge fix by competing with friends in fighting games like Tekken and Street Fighter, where I get my head handed back to me on a platter every once in a while. It's funny, but every one of my friends has reined as temporary champion over a short time, and each one of us loves to finally lose when it happens, because that's when the game starts getting fun again.

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I have often asked myself why I think most (not all) modern video games suck and rarely brings forth the same feelings in me as they used to.


That really should be:

I have often asked myself why I think most (not all) modern video games don't work for me and rarely brings forth the same feelings in me as they used to.

Unless you actually think the games just plain 'suck' in the general sense, rather than particular to you (in which case I'd very much disagree with you)?

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- Are games easier today than they used to be? If so, is this for better or worse?


Some are, some aren't. Some games (eg: World in Conflict) seem to have decided to not bother making the campaign hard, and just basically have it a tutorial into the multiplayer; the campaign is nice for the story and as an intro, but not the main focus.

Describing competitive multiplayer games as easy or hard is a silly concept, I'd say, since its competing directly against others.

I'd say games have become less annoying in their difficulty. For example, less games these days make you replay large sections because you died at a certain point. Is this really making it harder, or is it removing false difficulty and making the experience less irritating? I'd say the latter.

Games could certainly do with better difficulty levels. This doesn't seem to be something that has improved much over the years; why not have difficulties ranging from anyone-can-beat-it to if-you-beat-this-you-are-god? (NB: Should also have controls over how much they cheat, etc.)

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- How does the concept of learning curve relate to difficulty and what are your thoughts on these concepts?


Easy to play, hard to master is an excellent maxim for stuff like this. Controls have certainly, for the most part, gotten much more intuitive and easier to control (WADS, customisable key mappings, better tutorials, multibuilding and unit selection, etc.). This doesn't make the game itself easier, just makes it easier to play.

A steep learning curve is, I would say, a false-difficulty. Something put in there, normally by incompetance, to make the game harder to play, without actually making the game harder for people who know what they are doing, which seems the wrong way around.

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- Finally, is there any difficult game that has a special place in your heart? ( Just curious... ;D )


Not really. Games rarely get a special place in my heart for their gameplay, difficult or easy (I may enjoy them, but my love is reserved for other things).

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- Are games easier today than they used to be? If so, is this for better or worse?


Very closely related topic.

Most games are easier nowadays. I think it's good, if the game is mainly plot driven (RPG, Adventure etc). I'm usually just playing the game to see what happens next, and get bored if I need to grind exp or run some pointless general sidequests. But if the game is simple controlled platformer / shooter that is mostly deterministic, I love the challenge.

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- How does the concept of learning curve relate to difficulty and what are your thoughts on these concepts?


Depends on the game, but if the frequency of player deaths/loses throughout the game is constant, i think you have pretty good curve/difficulty (for harder games at least). Of course you should include some easier and harder parts along the way, just to keep thing interesting.

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- Finally, is there any difficult game that has a special place in your heart? ( Just curious... ;D )


Megaman 1 (yes, I'm that old :). I rented this game on rainy weekend and ended up playing it all the way to second last level, without knowing that you could change weapons! Yeah, it was damn hard.

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I probably have a different take on this than many people.

I think being a programmer sours me on this subject. When I'm instantly sniped in an action or arcade game, it's not because the game is challenging, it's because the AI has my x,y,z coordinate, or has triangulated my future position using my current speed. I'm not fighting a worthy opponent, I'm fighting a math formula.

The same goes for what passes as difficulty in terms of levels. I'm not impressed with floor triggers and zones. If I'm on a level with enemies that keep flooding in with few places to take cover or walking into fixed kill sacks, again I'm not fighting a worthy opponent that moves about on the level doing things, I'm fighting the designer (and like a 12 year old boy, I'm forced to "pattern" the level).

When I think difficulty, I think being out manuevered: A roughly level playing field, an AI opponent with constraints as electronically close to mine as possible, and enough reasoning that he stands of chance of kicking my butt not because he handles physics faster or can mob on me, but because he's in the right place at the right time. I'd relish a difficult game with a Predator like scenario, where I've got the majority but can still get plastered. But with the rise of multiplayer and MMO gaming, I don't think I'll see that any time soon.

So naturally you might imagine that, even going back to the old Megaman days, I've been one frustrated gamer. [smile]

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Personally I can't play most single player games for any length of time. Even when the challenge is there, I don't find AI fun to beat. I only feel accomplished, challenge-wise, when I've either: beaten another player on a level playing field OR beat the developers in some way (doing something that's not supposed to be done). I think this is because whenever I beat a boss or a difficult section in a game, I always think "finally, took me long enough to beat something everyone's supposed to beat." That said, I can get through some single player games if they have significant value in some other form (Rez comes to mind).

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Original post by Kriuq
I think this is because whenever I beat a boss or a difficult section in a game, I always think "finally, took me long enough to beat something everyone's supposed to beat."

I share your aggravation. That's why I prefer games that bend future scenarios with past consequences. Where the game world isn't exactly predetermined by the designer. Most role playing games fit that description, where the player character can be trained into a killing machine that the designer can't rely on for specific objectives.

But even with linear action games, just because you win doesn't mean you have to win like everyone else. Depending on your strategy and foresight, you may get through it without a scratch, or while taking out far more enemies than was expected.

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Single Player games tend to bore me as well unless the game keeps progressing at a good pace. If there is a puzzle that takes me awhile to solve or a jump that is hard to land I usually just end up playing something else.

There are some games that are rewarding because they are difficult. Guitar Hero for example. Many people really find these games a challenge and feel like it is an accomplishment to beat a particularly hard song.

I also think that the most enjoyment comes from getting into a groove where you are challenged but progressing. A difficult task in a game is usually only fun if you end up beating it.

On the other hand finally jumping over that lava pit or solving that puzzle may not be as rewarding to some.

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You can disconnect the initial learning curve from the general difficulty with progressive difficulty (for linear games) and tutorial modes (for everything). In-game help, tool tips, and other similar features also provide assistance.


I really dislike tutorial modes, especially if you are forced to play through them if you dont feel like it. How lame is it to play an RTS campaign just to realize that the first third of it is dedicated to teaching you the game? Tool-tips are cool if they are subtle and I remember a 4X game called Ascendancy had a cool feature where you could shift click on pretty much anything and it would bring up a helpful tool-tip. But for the most part I wonder why people find it so damn complicated to the read the manual!
IMHO action games should be so easy to control that any explanation beyond the occasional splash screen or tool tip shouldn´t be necessary while more complex games like RPGs and strategy games should let the good old manual do the job. If roleplayers didn´t like reading, they´d probably opt for another genre anyway ;D

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Not really. Games rarely get a special place in my heart for their gameplay, difficult or easy (I may enjoy them, but my love is reserved for other things).


Yeah, same, but don´t you think difficulty and learning-curve play in a lot in what we call gameplay? In a broader sense, I think a "game" could be defined as a "fun challange" (as opposed to a real-life challange that might not be so fun) and even if videogames have gone beyond that definition in that many of them tell stories or even aim to stir emotions like narrative media, I have a hard time thinking of a fun game that wasn´t challanging.
In fact, the only title I can really come up with is Katamari Damacy, which is all fun and no challenge but that is really an exception rather than the norm.

In my eyes, good gameplay is about blood, sweat & tears and the most frustrating games are also those which I remember the best.

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Most games are easier nowadays. I think it's good, if the game is mainly plot driven (RPG, Adventure etc). I'm usually just playing the game to see what happens next, and get bored if I need to grind exp or run some pointless general sidequests. But if the game is simple controlled platformer / shooter that is mostly deterministic, I love the challenge.


Wonderful distinction. But do you know what I remember most vividly from Final Fantasy VII, besides that moment Aerith lost her life to Sepiroths cold Masamune blade in a mako reactor? Beating Ruby and Emerald weapons.
For those who don´t know, these two monsters were huge bosses that were optional to fight but left you with a great sense of accomplishment once you mastered them.

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I think being a programmer sours me on this subject. When I'm instantly sniped in an action or arcade game, it's not because the game is challenging, it's because the AI has my x,y,z coordinate, or has triangulated my future position using my current speed. I'm not fighting a worthy opponent, I'm fighting a math formula.


Agreed, and if this is the way the developer choose to make his game difficult, then surely it is a flawed design. I also hate how most RTS AIs dont seem to be restrained by any fog-of-war or dont seem to have any problem giving all their units different orders at once, even though it would be impossible for me as a player. I'd like to separate AI programming from difficulty adjustment since the ultimate goal for AI programming should be to make the enemy seem realisitic whereas the goal for difficulty adjustment should be to make the game challanging yet beatable, regardless of how the CPU "thinks."
However, I do recognize that there is bond between these two fields and it makes perfect sense to think of difficulty in-terms of AI cunning & ability.

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The same goes for what passes as difficulty in terms of levels. I'm not impressed with floor triggers and zones. If I'm on a level with enemies that keep flooding in with few places to take cover or walking into fixed kill sacks, again I'm not fighting a worthy opponent that moves about on the level doing things, I'm fighting the designer (and like a 12 year old boy, I'm forced to "pattern" the level).


I see what you are saying but I personally like the feeling of fighting the designer. With Ninja Gaiden, for instance, its like Team Ninja are saying "hey, we created this challange for you, are you up to the task?"
About "pattering the level" I don´t think this is necesarilly a bad thing eithier. If you play a Cave shooter like Do-Don Pachi or Espgaluda you will notice that to achieve a high score you must learn the level almost like a guitar player learns a certain song, and once you know the in-and-outs of it perfectly ad can land that multi-million score, the feeling of accomplishment is tremendous.

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There are some games that are rewarding because they are difficult. Guitar Hero for example. Many people really find these games a challenge and feel like it is an accomplishment to beat a particularly hard song.


I HATE Guitar Hero. Suddenly "gaming" is something for college frat parties and couples dinners where people who have never touched a console control exclaim: "Wow, I never knew video games could be this fun!"
This is so utterly ridiculous when there are so many other music games that are way better and dont scam you buy having you buy a piece of junk controller that you wont use for anything else: Gitarro Man and Oendan come to mind.

I'd like to wrap this rather lengthy tip off with a little game recommendation: Super Mario Bros II AKA Lost Levels in the US. This game is difficult in a good way, and I consider it to be Shigeru Miyamatos absolute masterpiece. Rather than improving Super Mario I by adding new features, he perfected it by refining the level design into something mesmerizing and unforgetable. Just don´t beat up your controller too much! :D

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Most of this stuff comes down to knowing your target market and not making stupid design decisions, like fake-difficulty (eg: omniscient AI).

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I really dislike tutorial modes, especially if you are forced to play through them if you dont feel like it.


You dislike optional tutorials...?

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I think a "game" could be defined as a "fun challange"


Not generally. That doesn't apply to quite a lot of games, and so fails as a definition. (Both the "fun" and "challange [sic]" parts can fail, incidently; the key distinction between enjoyment and fun kicking in there).

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I HATE Guitar Hero. Suddenly "gaming" is something for college frat parties and couples dinners where people who have never touched a console control exclaim: "Wow, I never knew video games could be this fun!"


So basically you hate anything that isn't to your taste? This is meant to be a game design discussion thread, not a personalised rant.

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- Are games easier today than they used to be? If so, is this for better or worse?

Easier. And if the game is too easy it is for worse. I think games should default to a good level of difficulty and provide an easier settings as an option.

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- How does the concept of learning curve relate to difficulty and what are your thoughts on these concepts?

A previous poster mentioned the tooltips and 'in-game' tutorial. I prefer that much more over a disconnected tutorial that breaks immersion. For reference I think LOTRO did a good job of a tutorial.

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- Finally, is there any difficult game that has a special place in your heart? ( Just curious... ;D )

The original Sierra games. King's Quest, Space Quest, etc. Back then when you played a game that was usually the only game you had. And there was no easy lookup on the internet option. You had to grind it out until you eventually solved the problem and when you did it felt awesome!

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Games are easier because gaming is becoming more widespread, and most players are becoming less willing to beat something ridiculously hard when they'd rather be having consistent fun. Overcoming a challenge is only one part of the enjoyment equation. Some people like seeing there score go up, others just like moving colored blocks around and seeing a row bloop out of existence(minor victories vs large ones). My mom doesn't play Spider Solitaire every day to show the XP programming team who's who, she does it because she likes playing it, and that's why most people play games. There's too much gamer elitism going on here.

I agree that the most challenging games are the most memorable, but does that mean they were the most fun? I think Oluseyi needs to come give one of his speeches on Nostalgia.

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I'd say games have become less annoying in their difficulty. For example, less games these days make you replay large sections because you died at a certain point. Is this really making it harder, or is it removing false difficulty and making the experience less irritating? I'd say the latter.
...
A difficult task in a game is usually only fun if you end up beating it.
...
Games are easier because gaming is becoming more widespread, and most players are becoming less willing to beat something ridiculously hard when they'd rather be having consistent fun.


Why does so many assume that hard games = no fun. Or that trying the same segment over and over again is irritating? If the game has good gameplay, it shouldn't matter that you need to replay some sections (if you're not just interested to see where the plot is going). Or has everything become so easy nowadays that people get angry if they don't get their way in 2-3 tries.

Maybe a poor comaprison, but I go rock climbing. I can work on a spesific route on one single move for weeks before i finally "complete it". Its damn fun everytime, even if I don't make it in first 3-20 tries :) But yeah, maybe it's just the adrenaline :)

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Original post by Prinz Eugn
Overcoming a challenge is only one part of the enjoyment equation.

Yes, but I would say its usually a scaler for the enjoyment equation. I don't feel good about scores, progress, or achievements, if they're trivial to obtain.

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There's too much gamer elitism going on here.

That's just crap. It's not elitism to want to nosedive deeper into your own enjoyment. Why can't some gamers enjoy a rough gaming session without appearing to look down on other gamers?

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I agree that the most challenging games are the most memorable, but does that mean they were the most fun? I think Oluseyi needs to come give one of his speeches on Nostalgia.

It was part of the reason they were the most fun. I've actually ruled nostalgia out for most of my gaming admirations, by playing newer games that hit the same sweet spot. Some of my "favorite games of all time" are only a few years old.

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Now being part of the younger generation, I have no experience of NES-N64 games (except for VC - where I have downloaded the Lost Levels for Mario) so I don't know what I prefer. However, surely the best option is a game where you never fail, but you are always one bullet, one HP and one second away from failure. To me, that is the Nirvana of gaming difficulty.

Having said this, beating something that is stupidly hard is a great feeling. For example, the hardest game in the world (Google Search: Addicting Games The Hardest Game in the World) is, as the name suggests, very hard and each level could take up to 30 tries, but every time you complete a level a euphoria sweeps over you. So I think there is definitely something to be said about hard games.

And then there is easiness, I don't enjoy an "easy" game as such unless there is an amazing story. I play games for, as someone said, a virtual challenge. But I think that is what difficulty settings are for. Furthermore, some bits aren't meant to be the challenge. For example, I have no problem with the difficulty in Legend of Zelda because killing the small creatures isn't MEANT to be the problem, but if in Halo the difficulty increase just made the platforming element harder in the final level, that would suck also because that bit isn't the challenge.

I think difficulty levels are very important. That way you can play through the game on easy (if you are new to the genre) or medium, and then set it to hard for a euphoric challenge and just play through the bits you enjoyed and don't mind repeating.

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Or that trying the same segment over and over again is irritating?


We don't assume that, we know that it is irritating for us. Primarily when it is as below. Note how I said 'large sections'. Replaying one boss a few times isn't that annoying; replaying one boss + 10 minutes of extra gameplay, though...

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If the game has good gameplay, it shouldn't matter that you need to replay some sections (if you're not just interested to see where the plot is going).


You try playing the same 5+ minute stretch of gameplay half a dozen times over (I've seen it sometimes go considerably past 10 minutes worth), most of which you can beat with your eyes closed, because you died to one bit over and over.

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Or has everything become so easy nowadays that people get angry if they don't get their way in 2-3 tries.


Games are to *enjoy*. If games annoy me that much, they frequently disappear and aren't seen again for 6 months+, and the sequel then damned well doesn't get bought. Irritating games == not fun. Not fun == missing the point.

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Maybe a poor comaprison, but I go rock climbing. I can work on a spesific route on one single move for weeks before i finally "complete it". Its damn fun everytime, even if I don't make it in first 3-20 tries :) But yeah, maybe it's just the adrenaline :)


Fun for you, maybe. Not fun for me.

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Frustration isn't fun unless made up for by reward, and how far people are going to go for a reward and what that reward should be(and it's perceived value) depends on the person. Some people like getting high scores, others like more gameplay(like a new level), or new features(unlocked material to customize a character). It depends on the person, but there's more kinds of one type of person than another...

Most people aren't going to play a really hard game for very long simply because what they get out of isn't going to be worth it to them. To a hardcore gamer, beating a hard game is reward enough, but not many want to make a game for an audience that small.

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I think the best answer to difficulty is to give the player room to challenge easier and harder aspects of the game. For example, in Mount&Blade, you can hire your own army and choose to only fight smaller armies than your own, or you can take on large enemy armies single handedly.

However, this type of gameplay requires the more difficult challenges to present better rewards. And I'm sure a few people here would complain about that.

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Original post by Captain Griffen
We don't assume that, we know that it is irritating for us. Primarily when it is as below. Note how I said 'large sections'. Replaying one boss a few times isn't that annoying; replaying one boss + 10 minutes of extra gameplay, though...
...
Fun for you, maybe. Not fun for me.


Yeah, I hear you Cap.

We just enjoy different things. I *like* to perfect my game so that I can almost play it in my sleep :) I do prefer that there is some kind of motivator to replay segments, as long as it is tied to the gameplay. For example, having more health for boss battle, having more lives for the final level etc. If the game has unlimited continues and replenishing health, it is kind of pointless to replay long segments (although I don't mind that in some games).

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Frustration isn't fun unless made up for by reward, and how far people are going to go for a reward and what that reward should be(and it's perceived value) depends on the person. Some people like getting high scores, others like more gameplay(like a new level), or new features(unlocked material to customize a character). It depends on the person, but there's more kinds of one type of person than another...

Most people aren't going to play a really hard game for very long simply because what they get out of isn't going to be worth it to them. To a hardcore gamer, beating a hard game is reward enough, but not many want to make a game for an audience that small.


Frustration is never fun. The reward is. But as I said, if the game is right, I don't get frustrated if I need to play over some segments. Maybe I'm just odd that way.

I like challenging games, but I don't think that makes me a hardcore gamer. Nowadays I play games maybe 2-3 hours a week (or more if I can find a good game). I would think hardcore gamers are ones playing WoW or similar titles 14+ hours a week. Your definition of the word may wary...

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As technology has progressed games I think have gotten better at introducing challenges that don't seem as scripted. For example one can take a look at the Horror FPS F.E.A.R. which is probably my all time favorite game. The AI in the game was amazing, always changing and reacting based on the situation. More than once I'd be fighting one enemy while others snuck back around to attack me, blindsiding me. Enemies would run for cover, protect each other when injured. They'd always play smart, which made it a very enjoyable game. It's a game I highly recommend if you don't mind screaming bloody murder every now and then.

But some of the best challenges will always come from multiplayer gameplay. Its one of the reasons why Super Smash Brothers Brawl is a favorite of mine when friends are around. Nothing is more satisfying than fighting someone who is equal to your strength and coming out on top.... barely.

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Original post by Madvillainy
Do you remember how incredibly nerve-wreckingly difficult the Megaman games for NES were? Do you remember how many times you had to replay that first stage of Super Ghost N Ghouls before you got a hang of it?
I always found MM quite easy, unless on the last few levels. I am not quite sure how much times I've completed G&G's 1st level but I can probably count this on one hand.

It seems there's alot of subjectivity.
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Original post by Madvillainy
- Are games easier today than they used to be? If so, is this for better or worse?
I agree they're easier as other posters pointed out, but I believe this isn't better, nor worse. The game medium is changed. There's still a game to spend some time which needs to be difficult, there's another kind of game, usually telling a nice story which - I believe - it would be better completed in a single blow.

For example, I believe that Prince Of Persia: Sands of Time would have been much more immersive if they hadn't to trick on the death issue. This is partially resolved in Pray, but still felt a bit of a cheap trick to me.
I felt Warrior Within much more combat oriented so that needed to be hard (actaually it was too hard for me).
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Original post by Madvillainy
- How does the concept of learning curve relate to difficulty and what are your thoughts on these concepts?
I'd say that the "current" point on the curve is the difficulty. The difference between the designed difficulty and the actual skill is the perceived difficulty, which we want to take under control.
How?
Why adaptive difficulty still hasn't taken much success?
In other terms: why adjusting the "perceived difficulty" isn't widespread and common practice?

In my opinion, because that's essentially hard to turn in numbers. Suppose some metric, based on health for example(note1) tells you the player needs help. How do you implement this? Spawning health packs is just lame. If the player has some sort of regen, cheating a bit on the rand could work, but that will be just a cheat and may actually become an exploit.

Even worse: suppose you give the player some rockets and quad damage. Immediatly after death the player walks in the boss room with a double rocket stock and a quad. The boss difficulty is now screwed.

Summing up: I think adaptive difficulty done right to be rather hard to implement nicely but hard to think at as well.

note1: the Halo approach is wonderful in this specific example. Essentially infinite, rechargable health - I still wonder where Master Chied keeps its batteries/reactors to power a so effective shield. I admit this is maybe a too simple example.
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Original post by Madvillainy
- Finally, is there any difficult game that has a special place in your heart? ( Just curious... ;D )
Too many from the oldskool days. I'd have to think for quite some time.
In the "recent" years I liked Max Payne 1 (still have to play the 2) and Pray.
I had great hopes for STALKER but looks like I cannot get my hands on a PC which doesn't bug on it. :-(

Offtopic: does somebody know more on this X-ray engine?

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Original post by Madvillainy
- Finally, is there any difficult game that has a special place in your heart? ( Just curious... ;D )


Over G Fighters- On Expert
Nothing like face-hurting realism to make yourself feel superior to those damn Ace Combat kids.

Command & Conquer- the Original
1 Commando+unarmed helicopter vs sprawling base? Awesome.

Master of Orion 2 -On Hard
Can't waste a single turn...

Halo 3- Multiplayer Matchmaking
Those 49/49 Team Slayer games where defeat is one mistake away.

Mechwarrior 4(and all sequels)- on Hard+
Shaving off all the armor on your arms so you can fit an extra ton of ammo for your torso's LBX 20? That's good stuff.

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Original post by Madvillainy
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There are some games that are rewarding because they are difficult. Guitar Hero for example. Many people really find these games a challenge and feel like it is an accomplishment to beat a particularly hard song.


I HATE Guitar Hero. Suddenly "gaming" is something for college frat parties and couples dinners where people who have never touched a console control exclaim: "Wow, I never knew video games could be this fun!"
This is so utterly ridiculous when there are so many other music games that are way better and dont scam you buy having you buy a piece of junk controller that you wont use for anything else: Gitarro Man and Oendan come to mind.


I guess I disagree with you on a few counts. The top RTS players can give over 100 commands per minute, which is very impressive that's almost 1.5 a second. So actually the difficulty levels are close to being accurate and all RTS games I always enjoyed (The AoE games mainly) the enemy always had to scout for you before they could attack.

I don't understand what you have against Guitar Hero, did you want gaming to just be for nerds and not become a social activity which they were designed for? Being a college student now and having been playing games for over 13 years I think you are flawed in your comment because most "college gamers" have been playing games for at least 6 years, I know almost know "new" gamers starting from GH other then a few girls. The game is a rip off you could say but also innovation it brings more interaction and can add more fun. If you don't see that I think you should seriously think if you can see a game from a profitable perspective where innovation and making it so college frat parties and couples dinners where people who have never touched a console control exclaim: "Wow, I never knew video games could be this fun!" is what you want and not a bad thing.

On topic I think a great game was God of War after beating the whole game and playing on Godly it was very difficult for me.

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