Quote:- Are games easier today than they used to be? If so, is this for better or worse?
Easier. And if the game is too easy it is for worse. I think games should default to a good level of difficulty and provide an easier settings as an option.
Quote:- How does the concept of learning curve relate to difficulty and what are your thoughts on these concepts?
A previous poster mentioned the tooltips and 'in-game' tutorial. I prefer that much more over a disconnected tutorial that breaks immersion. For reference I think LOTRO did a good job of a tutorial.
Quote:- Finally, is there any difficult game that has a special place in your heart? ( Just curious... ;D )
The original Sierra games. King's Quest, Space Quest, etc. Back then when you played a game that was usually the only game you had. And there was no easy lookup on the internet option. You had to grind it out until you eventually solved the problem and when you did it felt awesome!
Games are easier because gaming is becoming more widespread, and most players are becoming less willing to beat something ridiculously hard when they'd rather be having consistent fun. Overcoming a challenge is only one part of the enjoyment equation. Some people like seeing there score go up, others just like moving colored blocks around and seeing a row bloop out of existence(minor victories vs large ones). My mom doesn't play Spider Solitaire every day to show the XP programming team who's who, she does it because she likes playing it, and that's why most people play games. There's too much gamer elitism going on here.
I agree that the most challenging games are the most memorable, but does that mean they were the most fun? I think Oluseyi needs to come give one of his speeches on Nostalgia.
Quote: I'd say games have become less annoying in their difficulty. For example, less games these days make you replay large sections because you died at a certain point. Is this really making it harder, or is it removing false difficulty and making the experience less irritating? I'd say the latter. ... A difficult task in a game is usually only fun if you end up beating it. ... Games are easier because gaming is becoming more widespread, and most players are becoming less willing to beat something ridiculously hard when they'd rather be having consistent fun.
Why does so many assume that hard games = no fun. Or that trying the same segment over and over again is irritating? If the game has good gameplay, it shouldn't matter that you need to replay some sections (if you're not just interested to see where the plot is going). Or has everything become so easy nowadays that people get angry if they don't get their way in 2-3 tries.
Maybe a poor comaprison, but I go rock climbing. I can work on a spesific route on one single move for weeks before i finally "complete it". Its damn fun everytime, even if I don't make it in first 3-20 tries :) But yeah, maybe it's just the adrenaline :)
Quote:Original post by Prinz Eugn Overcoming a challenge is only one part of the enjoyment equation.
Yes, but I would say its usually a scaler for the enjoyment equation. I don't feel good about scores, progress, or achievements, if they're trivial to obtain.
Quote:There's too much gamer elitism going on here.
That's just crap. It's not elitism to want to nosedive deeper into your own enjoyment. Why can't some gamers enjoy a rough gaming session without appearing to look down on other gamers?
Quote:I agree that the most challenging games are the most memorable, but does that mean they were the most fun? I think Oluseyi needs to come give one of his speeches on Nostalgia.
It was part of the reason they were the most fun. I've actually ruled nostalgia out for most of my gaming admirations, by playing newer games that hit the same sweet spot. Some of my "favorite games of all time" are only a few years old.
Now being part of the younger generation, I have no experience of NES-N64 games (except for VC - where I have downloaded the Lost Levels for Mario) so I don't know what I prefer. However, surely the best option is a game where you never fail, but you are always one bullet, one HP and one second away from failure. To me, that is the Nirvana of gaming difficulty.
Having said this, beating something that is stupidly hard is a great feeling. For example, the hardest game in the world (Google Search: Addicting Games The Hardest Game in the World) is, as the name suggests, very hard and each level could take up to 30 tries, but every time you complete a level a euphoria sweeps over you. So I think there is definitely something to be said about hard games.
And then there is easiness, I don't enjoy an "easy" game as such unless there is an amazing story. I play games for, as someone said, a virtual challenge. But I think that is what difficulty settings are for. Furthermore, some bits aren't meant to be the challenge. For example, I have no problem with the difficulty in Legend of Zelda because killing the small creatures isn't MEANT to be the problem, but if in Halo the difficulty increase just made the platforming element harder in the final level, that would suck also because that bit isn't the challenge.
I think difficulty levels are very important. That way you can play through the game on easy (if you are new to the genre) or medium, and then set it to hard for a euphoric challenge and just play through the bits you enjoyed and don't mind repeating.
Quote:Or that trying the same segment over and over again is irritating?
We don't assume that, we know that it is irritating for us. Primarily when it is as below. Note how I said 'large sections'. Replaying one boss a few times isn't that annoying; replaying one boss + 10 minutes of extra gameplay, though...
Quote:If the game has good gameplay, it shouldn't matter that you need to replay some sections (if you're not just interested to see where the plot is going).
You try playing the same 5+ minute stretch of gameplay half a dozen times over (I've seen it sometimes go considerably past 10 minutes worth), most of which you can beat with your eyes closed, because you died to one bit over and over.
Quote:Or has everything become so easy nowadays that people get angry if they don't get their way in 2-3 tries.
Games are to *enjoy*. If games annoy me that much, they frequently disappear and aren't seen again for 6 months+, and the sequel then damned well doesn't get bought. Irritating games == not fun. Not fun == missing the point.
Quote:Maybe a poor comaprison, but I go rock climbing. I can work on a spesific route on one single move for weeks before i finally "complete it". Its damn fun everytime, even if I don't make it in first 3-20 tries :) But yeah, maybe it's just the adrenaline :)
Frustration isn't fun unless made up for by reward, and how far people are going to go for a reward and what that reward should be(and it's perceived value) depends on the person. Some people like getting high scores, others like more gameplay(like a new level), or new features(unlocked material to customize a character). It depends on the person, but there's more kinds of one type of person than another...
Most people aren't going to play a really hard game for very long simply because what they get out of isn't going to be worth it to them. To a hardcore gamer, beating a hard game is reward enough, but not many want to make a game for an audience that small.
I think the best answer to difficulty is to give the player room to challenge easier and harder aspects of the game. For example, in Mount&Blade, you can hire your own army and choose to only fight smaller armies than your own, or you can take on large enemy armies single handedly.
However, this type of gameplay requires the more difficult challenges to present better rewards. And I'm sure a few people here would complain about that.
Quote:Original post by Captain Griffen We don't assume that, we know that it is irritating for us. Primarily when it is as below. Note how I said 'large sections'. Replaying one boss a few times isn't that annoying; replaying one boss + 10 minutes of extra gameplay, though... ... Fun for you, maybe. Not fun for me.
Yeah, I hear you Cap.
We just enjoy different things. I *like* to perfect my game so that I can almost play it in my sleep :) I do prefer that there is some kind of motivator to replay segments, as long as it is tied to the gameplay. For example, having more health for boss battle, having more lives for the final level etc. If the game has unlimited continues and replenishing health, it is kind of pointless to replay long segments (although I don't mind that in some games).
Quote: Frustration isn't fun unless made up for by reward, and how far people are going to go for a reward and what that reward should be(and it's perceived value) depends on the person. Some people like getting high scores, others like more gameplay(like a new level), or new features(unlocked material to customize a character). It depends on the person, but there's more kinds of one type of person than another...
Most people aren't going to play a really hard game for very long simply because what they get out of isn't going to be worth it to them. To a hardcore gamer, beating a hard game is reward enough, but not many want to make a game for an audience that small.
Frustration is never fun. The reward is. But as I said, if the game is right, I don't get frustrated if I need to play over some segments. Maybe I'm just odd that way.
I like challenging games, but I don't think that makes me a hardcore gamer. Nowadays I play games maybe 2-3 hours a week (or more if I can find a good game). I would think hardcore gamers are ones playing WoW or similar titles 14+ hours a week. Your definition of the word may wary...
As technology has progressed games I think have gotten better at introducing challenges that don't seem as scripted. For example one can take a look at the Horror FPS F.E.A.R. which is probably my all time favorite game. The AI in the game was amazing, always changing and reacting based on the situation. More than once I'd be fighting one enemy while others snuck back around to attack me, blindsiding me. Enemies would run for cover, protect each other when injured. They'd always play smart, which made it a very enjoyable game. It's a game I highly recommend if you don't mind screaming bloody murder every now and then.
But some of the best challenges will always come from multiplayer gameplay. Its one of the reasons why Super Smash Brothers Brawl is a favorite of mine when friends are around. Nothing is more satisfying than fighting someone who is equal to your strength and coming out on top.... barely.
