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losethos

Court Case Simulator

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I was thinking of doing a game on Exodus -- Moses and the Jews going out of Egypt and into the desert. One thing Moses did was judge court cases. I thought of trying to make the results of the verdicts affect outcome of the society. I could randomlyy generate crimes, but how would do it in an objective way so that there was a correct verdict? I really don't want to write a bunch of cases by hand. My only other thought was instead of "innocent" and "guilty", just assume all are guilty and pick "punish" or "have mercy". You guys have any thoughts on simulation formuli, and how to tackle randomly generated cases where there is a correct answer to "innocent" or "guilty"?

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Original post by losethos
is a correct answer to "innocent" or "guilty"?


No. It's subjective and you can't claim to have a system of objectivity set up if you make a "right" answer. What are you going to do if the player gives the wrong verdict? Make him try again?

I think it'd be better if consequences are generated without think of right or wrong. It also might make certain computations easier. Observe:

Crime: stealing
Defendant: beggar
Victim: Merchant

Always siding with the merchants in these cases will lead to a stronger economy, but weaker lower-class. Always siding with the beggar will lead to more crime, but stronger lower-class.

Crime: stealing
Defendant: Citizen
Victim: Merchant

Much the same as above, but siding with the citizen will make lead to higher market prices as well as more crime.

There's an online game you might want to research that actually did this interestingly: http://www.nationstates.net/
You might contact the person who did this for advice on the subject.

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Thanks. I was think along the lines of that, but you gave me ideas.

I thought I wanted to make games, but pulling formuli out of my backside doesn't really sound all that fun. Does it sound fun to you guys? The result is enjoyable.

Damn! I really got voted down, more then when I posted ads for my LoseThos operating system. I think it's the atheist crowd.

This game was going to have you talk to God -- a random word generator...
WONTED LANGUAGES GIVING ABIDE TRAVAILS OPINIONATIVE PRESERVE
ESTEEM WRITTEN EVINCING INCREDIBLE PROFITABLE REVENGE
BROAD PANTING HTTP SOMEONE RETURNING IMMUTABLE LEARNT

Anyway, LoseThos now has a first-person-shooter demo. You can download it and run it from a LiveCD. It's just the basics, to help other people do games.

In theory games sound fun, but I like doing operating system stuff more. If you guys get burned-out on games, you can do operating system stuff to LoseThos... maybe do a new file system? The whole thing is only 100,000 lines of code from 64-bit compiler, kernel, window manager, graphic library, tools, to demos.

LoseThos

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As for the Exodus game, I haven't gotten very far. There are the ten commandments and there will be internal numbers on how well they are being followed. God will punish if your people are bad. There has to be penalty of some kind for going the other way -- being too strict. I don't know... revolution?

Besides the court stuff, you'll be given scavenger hunts by God. If you read the Bible, there are these long lists of animal sacrifices they must make at various intervals. They're pretty funny. How about a Unicorn sacrificed every other fortnight.

I don't want the standard God game situation where you just grow and conquer -- not very original. The Jews sometimes beat opponents when vastly outnumbered, so maybe you focus on how holy your people are instead. Three hundred might take-on ten thousand... that kind of thing.

Maybe when you talk to God, He gives new commandments and ordinances. There should be some reason you want to do this, but I can't think of any.

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I saw on another post a guy wanting formuli for fighting. You obviously have to pull them out of your backside. Reminds me of something God said the other day -- an article about a Middle Ages painter who drew a scene of an African and a Roman soldier. He had no idea what they looked like so he drew an outlandish thing from his imagination. That's almost criminal negligence -- other people viewing the painting didn't know he made them up. Think about how much the game Civilization probably influences people. "Democracies don't start wars." Getting sidetracked, before the Iraq war, I let the media lull me into thinking Saddam was a genocidal tyrant. Propaganda in the media can really screw-up the logic of future leaders. In short, I'm a little imtimidated by the thought of making some of this stuff up.

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Here's something scary for game designers -- think about how many soldiers in Iraq played games -- FPS's.

I did a tank game and jokingly wondered if they should have an ISO standard for combat -- there might be generals who grow-up playing them. In my game, tanks have armor and I decided you either penetrate the armor or not. If you do not penetrate, it seems silly to decrease the armor or life level -- you don't shoot the same spot twice, in all likelyhood.

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think about how many soldiers in Iraq played games

Well the army uses FPS games for training soldiers, it's basically no different than some guy at home playing COD or something except that it's for war training and not fun.

Anyway, i saw your OS a few weeks ago in your sig. It's pretty cool, i like the idea of integrating the compiler into the OS so you can pretty much run C/C++ code just like you would with a shell command. I might think of downloading it someday, when i get a better computer and one that's 64-bit.

As for your game, are you planning on making the player choose the outcome or verdict or whatever, or do actually you want an algorithm that decides whether the person is innocent or guilty depending on what they have done. Because i agree with Splinter of Chaos, the game shouldn't have any idea of right or wrong. The game acts as a simulation and plays out the two different cases where the person is convicted innocent or guilty.

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Ba Ha! XTAL, you have a lower vote rating than I do! Badge of courage ;-)

Bible said Moses judged. Splinter made me think about rulings between two parties and outlined how that might go. That's probably what it was. I had been thinking about breaking God's laws. What about rulings between two peers? One might try to make the game about being wise, like Solomon and "splitting the baby". Just being a good judge in cases between peers has little bearing on society, though, so it would be sort-of irrelevant. I can't think of any way to randomly generate cases between peers that would make any sense and I'm certainly not thrilled about making them by hand! People would learn which outcome to pick if they played it more than once. I guess it's possible I could download public records on court cases. That sounds pretty cool, actually. I'm not that motivated, though.

The big question is "is judging fun?" That will determine how much the game is about that. Someone told Moses to delegate at one point in the Bible. Maybe, court cases will be a nuissance you have to deal with and if your back-log gets too big, something bad happens. I don't know. New laws or certain conditions might cause the court case rate to increase. A really ambitious game might allow you to write laws and see how that goes!

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Quote:
A really ambitious game might allow you to write laws and see how that goes!

Now that would be really cool. Maybe use a scripting language to write laws like you would write code.

Quote:
The big question is "is judging fun?"

Not unless you make it fun/interesting. There is a courtroom-based game called Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney. I have never played it and i only heard of it on other forums but it seems reasonably popular. I would play your game if the consequences of the ruling propagates through the game like Splinter of Chaos suggested. "Always siding with the merchants in these cases will lead to a stronger economy, but weaker lower-class. Always siding with the beggar will lead to more crime, but stronger lower-class". So you could play the good guy or the bad guy and the game would play out accordingly, i believe Fable is like that (although i have never played it).

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