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EmptyVoid

Does XNA have all the Features of DirectX10?

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Well I'm working on a project that I'd like to move to the Xbox 360 at some point but I'm not sure if I can use XNA. So does XNA support all the features of DirectX10 such as the unified shader?

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"Unified shader" is a hardware term and has nothing todo with DX10; you could make a DX10 part which had descrete PS, GS and VS stages with no problem, or indeed go the route of Larrabee and not have any dedicated hardware at all. I'm pretty sure I've seen you throw this term around before; learn what a term means before using it, you just make yourself look foolish otherwise.

And to answer your question; the XB360 is (basically) a DX9 part, so you will have no DX10 funtionality there at all.

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Original post by phantom
"Unified shader" is a hardware term and has nothing todo with DX10; you could make a DX10 part which had descrete PS, GS and VS stages with no problem, or indeed go the route of Larrabee and not have any dedicated hardware at all. I'm pretty sure I've seen you throw this term around before; learn what a term means before using it, you just make yourself look foolish otherwise.

And to answer your question; the XB360 is (basically) a DX9 part, so you will have no DX10 funtionality there at all.


How would saying "So does XNA support all the features of DirectX10 such as the unified shader?" be inappropriate? I must be able to use textures in the vertex shader, meaning the shaders would need to be unified. And yes the unified shader has EVERYTHING to do with DirectX10 on the Xbox360 seeing as it does not support OpenGL...

I've always know what the term means and have always know that it's based on hardware but before I thought DirectX and OpenGL were going though different parts of the video card.

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Original post by Moonshoe
Linky

Also, phantom is right about the unified shader. Even though Xbox has a unified shader architecture, it doesn't support DX10.


You are wrong the Xbox does not have a unified shader because it's using a ATI video card which at the time of release ATI didn't have any video cards that support the unified shader.

If it did then it probably would support DirectX10 seeing as Microsoft is the owner of DirectX10, ATI, XNA and the Xbox360.

[Edited by - EmptyVoid on August 20, 2008 5:32:18 PM]

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Original post by EmptyVoid
You are wrong the Xbox does not have a unified shader because it's using a ATI video card which at the time of release ATI didn't have any video cards that support the unified shader.

If it did then it probably would support DirectX10 seeing as Microsoft is the owner of DirectX10, ATI and the Xbox360.


Another linky.

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Original post by EmptyVoid
You are wrong the Xbox does not have a unified shader because it's using a ATI video card which at the time of release ATI didn't have any video cards that support the unified shader.

If it did then it probably would support DirectX10 seeing as Microsoft is the owner of DirectX10, ATI and the Xbox360.


Another linky.


Why would Microsoft put features in the Xbox360 which can't even be use? If I wrote a game in DirectX10 /C++ is there some way to port it over to the Xbox360? I know Microsoft does not let random people do it for quality control but is it even possible?

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Original post by Moonshoe
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Original post by EmptyVoid
You are wrong the Xbox does not have a unified shader because it's using a ATI video card which at the time of release ATI didn't have any video cards that support the unified shader.

If it did then it probably would support DirectX10 seeing as Microsoft is the owner of DirectX10, ATI and the Xbox360.


Another linky.


Why would Microsoft put features in the Xbox360 which can't even be use?


They can be used by the XDK guys (lots of $$$ required, and C/C++ API).

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Original post by Daaark
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Well I'm working on a project that I'd like to move to the Xbox 360 at some point but I'm not sure if I can use XNA.


Whats that suppose to mean Daaark? Is that me hitting you with a chair for posting something that's completely useless?

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Original post by EmptyVoid
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Original post by Moonshoe
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Original post by EmptyVoid
You are wrong the Xbox does not have a unified shader because it's using a ATI video card which at the time of release ATI didn't have any video cards that support the unified shader.

If it did then it probably would support DirectX10 seeing as Microsoft is the owner of DirectX10, ATI and the Xbox360.


Another linky.


Why would Microsoft put features in the Xbox360 which can't even be use?


They can be used by the XDK guys (lots of $$$ required, and C/C++ API).


That's what I thought... Just another case of M$ stewing the little guy.

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Original post by EmptyVoid
That's what I thought... Just another case of M$ stewing the little guy.


To be fair, the fact that Microsoft allows XBox360 development through XNA essentially for free is more than any other major console developer has provided in the past. (to my knowledge)

The reason XNA on the XBox does not provide access to some of the advanced DirectX10 like capabilities of the graphics hardware is likely to maintain easy portability of XNA games between Windows and the XBox. It would be nice if there was a cheap version of the C++ development kit as an intermediate step between XNA and the big bucks XDK, but I'll take what I can get.

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Original post by EmptyVoid
That's what I thought... Just another case of M$ stewing the little guy.


To be fair, the fact that Microsoft allows XBox360 development through XNA essentially for free is more than any other major console developer has provided in the past. (to my knowledge)

The reason XNA on the XBox does not provide access to some of the advanced DirectX10 like capabilities of the graphics hardware is likely to maintain easy portability of XNA games between Windows and the XBox. It would be nice if there was a cheap version of the C++ development kit as an intermediate step between XNA and the big bucks XDK, but I'll take what I can get.


How much does the XDK cost? 10k- 20k?

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Original post by EmptyVoid
That's what I thought... Just another case of M$ stewing the little guy.


To be fair, the fact that Microsoft allows XBox360 development through XNA essentially for free is more than any other major console developer has provided in the past. (to my knowledge)

The reason XNA on the XBox does not provide access to some of the advanced DirectX10 like capabilities of the graphics hardware is likely to maintain easy portability of XNA games between Windows and the XBox. It would be nice if there was a cheap version of the C++ development kit as an intermediate step between XNA and the big bucks XDK, but I'll take what I can get.


How much does the XDK cost? 10k- 20k?


Xbox.com | Dev - Developer Information

Quote:

Building a full retail game for Xbox 360 or Windows
Work with your existing publisher or Microsoft account manager.

For First party publishing submission only to Microsoft Game Studios, contact gamesub@microsoft.com.


That's all I'm at liberty to provide :| I wouldn't want to accidentally break my NDA...

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Here's some thing to ask yourself....

What is the goal of you working on this project?

If its to learn DirectX 10 then you aren't going to be able to port directly over to XBox 360 because it won't do DX 10.

If you want to develop for XBox Live Arcade then you either learn XNA and cope with any limitations it has, or you get buy rights to a reasonably priced engine that has a path to put your work on XBLA. Torque would fit the bill there.

Unless you have a fully stocked trust fund buying the XDK is not a feasible option for you.

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Original post by donny dont
Here's some thing to ask yourself....

What is the goal of you working on this project?

If its to learn DirectX 10 then you aren't going to be able to port directly over to XBox 360 because it won't do DX 10.

If you want to develop for XBox Live Arcade then you either learn XNA and cope with any limitations it has, or you get buy rights to a reasonably priced engine that has a path to put your work on XBLA. Torque would fit the bill there.

Unless you have a fully stocked trust fund buying the XDK is not a feasible option for you.


Actually I was thinking of entering the IGF and thought if I won the 20k grand prize I could buy the XDK but that's massive long shot if there ever was one. >.<

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Original post by EmptyVoid
How would saying "So does XNA support all the features of DirectX10 such as the unified shader?" be inappropriate? I must be able to use textures in the vertex shader, meaning the shaders would need to be unified. And yes the unified shader has EVERYTHING to do with DirectX10 on the Xbox360 seeing as it does not support OpenGL...


No, it doesn't.

The 'unified shader' is a term for the hardware which allows one unit to process VS, GS and PS instructions. SM3.0 hardware, DX9 era, from NV allowed texture access from vertex shaders but did NOT have a unified hardware architecture.

So, as I said, don't throw terms around if you don't know what they mean.

Moonshoe has already provided a link pointing out that the Xbox360's GPU uses a unified shader architecture and yes, this was more advanced than ATI had in their commerical units at the time because it was custom designed for MS.

Oh, and even if you have the money to get a proper dev kit you are still remarkably unlikely to get one; you'd need to be a company with either a proven track record or a game MS want to get on the 360. Bedroom coders with dreams and no clue need not apply; too many trade secrets and sensitive NDA material in there.

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Original post by donny dont
Here's some thing to ask yourself....

What is the goal of you working on this project?

If its to learn DirectX 10 then you aren't going to be able to port directly over to XBox 360 because it won't do DX 10.

If you want to develop for XBox Live Arcade then you either learn XNA and cope with any limitations it has, or you get buy rights to a reasonably priced engine that has a path to put your work on XBLA. Torque would fit the bill there.

Unless you have a fully stocked trust fund buying the XDK is not a feasible option for you.


Actually I was thinking of entering the IGF and thought if I won the 20k grand prize I could buy the XDK but that's massive long shot if there ever was one. >.<


A devkit costs money but you can't just write MS a check and they'll send you one...you're going to either need a publisher or demonstrate that your studio is of high enough quality to obtain a publisher. MS naturally has an interest in making sure that there's a rather high barrier of entry for their platform.

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Original post by phantom
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Original post by EmptyVoid
How would saying "So does XNA support all the features of DirectX10 such as the unified shader?" be inappropriate? I must be able to use textures in the vertex shader, meaning the shaders would need to be unified. And yes the unified shader has EVERYTHING to do with DirectX10 on the Xbox360 seeing as it does not support OpenGL...


No, it doesn't.

The 'unified shader' is a term for the hardware which allows one unit to process VS, GS and PS instructions. SM3.0 hardware, DX9 era, from NV allowed texture access from vertex shaders but did NOT have a unified hardware architecture.

So, as I said, don't throw terms around if you don't know what they mean.

Moonshoe has already provided a link pointing out that the Xbox360's GPU uses a unified shader architecture and yes, this was more advanced than ATI had in their commerical units at the time because it was custom designed for MS.

Oh, and even if you have the money to get a proper dev kit you are still remarkably unlikely to get one; you'd need to be a company with either a proven track record or a game MS want to get on the 360. Bedroom coders with dreams and no clue need not apply; too many trade secrets and sensitive NDA material in there.


Tell me how I should have said it then? I in fact need the unified hardware architecture which is not supported by XNA because I'm guessing it uses DirectX9.

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That's what I thought... Just another case of M$ stewing the little guy.


No it isn't. It's a case of every console manufacturer ever keeping their platform closed and not releasing dev kits and SDKs to the general public.

I'd be willing to bet that you're not working on anything XNA can't do, anyway.

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Original post by EmptyVoid
That's what I thought... Just another case of M$ stewing the little guy.


No it isn't. It's a case of every console manufacturer ever keeping their platform closed and not releasing dev kits and SDKs to the general public.

I'd be willing to bet that you're not working on anything XNA can't do, anyway.


Well then you bet wrong...

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That's what I thought... Just another case of M$ stewing the little guy.


No it isn't. It's a case of every console manufacturer ever keeping their platform closed and not releasing dev kits and SDKs to the general public.

I'd be willing to bet that you're not working on anything XNA can't do, anyway.


Well then you bet wrong...


Yeah, "M$" is horrible for not catering to the every whim and need of all the hobbyist coders in the world. I mean, you represent a huge source of income for them, right? Why wouldn't they try to please you in every way possible?

If you are unhappy with Microsoft's offering, move to something else. Good luck.

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Original post by Mike.Popoloski
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Original post by EmptyVoid
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Original post by Driv3MeFar
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Original post by EmptyVoid
That's what I thought... Just another case of M$ stewing the little guy.


No it isn't. It's a case of every console manufacturer ever keeping their platform closed and not releasing dev kits and SDKs to the general public.

I'd be willing to bet that you're not working on anything XNA can't do, anyway.


Well then you bet wrong...


Yeah, "M$" is horrible for not catering to the every whim and need of all the hobbyist coders in the world. I mean, you represent a huge source of income for them, right? Why wouldn't they try to please you in every way possible?

If you are unhappy with Microsoft's offering, move to something else. Good luck.


I'm saying they went out of there way to limit XNA so they could make money off selling the XDK to game companies.

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I'm saying they went out of there way to limit XNA so they could make money off selling the XDK to game companies.


Yeah man, I hear you. I hate when companies try to make a profit. It's so not fair. They should do everything for free.

Also, just a little news flash: XNA can access just about every piece of hardware that the XBox360 has. You can't use DX10 with XNA because the XBox360 does not support DirectX10!

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