quote:by Ketchaval ...we should invent new shields/defensive techniques, which would bring with them new strategies and more gameplay. Whereas, for a start there is the issue of positioning of the armour / shield. If it is at the front, then they can advance etc. If heavier at the rear, then they can retreat in "greater safety". But what happens when we start to give more interesting properties to shields?What we are looking for is innovative gameplay, which is based on defense. Note that this is not only RPG-related, so feel free to post ideas on topic. Thank you. Boby Dimitrov boby@azholding.com
Inventing Defensive Gameplay
Author
As the previous topic (ANTI-weapons) became too long and was need mostly for clarifying the subject, we''ll try to start anew here.
1) Shield snaring: You have to run up to your opponent, crowd them against a wall, and deploy your magical shield to trap them. The enemy is firing arrows and flaming projectiles. You have shields of various shapes and sizes with multiple angles. A 90 degree shield, for example, could be used to trap an enemy in a 90 degree corner...
2) Richochet: You deflect your enemies shots back at them in a complex environment. The skill is in turning the right way, at the right speed. Sort of like 3D pong...
*aaaaaahhhhhhh* okay, that''s my braindump for the day... time to go to bed...
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Just waiting for the mothership...
2) Richochet: You deflect your enemies shots back at them in a complex environment. The skill is in turning the right way, at the right speed. Sort of like 3D pong...
*aaaaaahhhhhhh* okay, that''s my braindump for the day... time to go to bed...
--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...
Assuming that if more than two enemies close on to you, you''re dead (one parries your sword, the other gets your arm, the other gets the other arm, the first one stabs you).
You can use a lot of moves that do little damage but put distance between you and the enemies.
- kick them (if done on stairs, they may fall, may pull other enemies with them - domino like)
- throw stuff at them to delay them - barrels, furnitures, etc.
- open bad animal cage to give you time to run away
Another kind of defensive gameplay is threatening. Aiming your gun at the gang''s leader and slowly making your way towards your car, then blazing away. Taking the pin out of a defensive grenade and letting your enemies know that if they kill you, you let go and everyone dies (this would work well in high explosive areas) Lighting a cigarette in a gas station.
You can use a lot of moves that do little damage but put distance between you and the enemies.
- kick them (if done on stairs, they may fall, may pull other enemies with them - domino like)
- throw stuff at them to delay them - barrels, furnitures, etc.
- open bad animal cage to give you time to run away
Another kind of defensive gameplay is threatening. Aiming your gun at the gang''s leader and slowly making your way towards your car, then blazing away. Taking the pin out of a defensive grenade and letting your enemies know that if they kill you, you let go and everyone dies (this would work well in high explosive areas) Lighting a cigarette in a gas station.
I can see 4 possibilities. This could be very useful for modern settings - if you kill or seriously injure someone, even in self defense you''re still going to have some ''splaining to do to the police. This could be applied as well to futuristic, past, or fantasy societies that also frown on violence. Pacifist characters could perhaps have more options than "block, block, block".
The ultimate goal would be to bring an end to the combat, without causing harm to the opponent.
Entanglement : Incapacitate the opponent in some fashion, without causing harm. Handcuffs, shackles, wrestling/holds, lengths of rope or chain (I recall a story about a police force that was trained to bind the wrists of their opponents with a length of rope as they struck), nets, cloaks, etc. Combat would end when the opponent was no longer able to attack/resist/move or whatever.
Disarmament : Somehow disabling the opponents primary means of attack. This could be anything from knocking the weapon away, destroying the weapon somehow, or jamming it (the sword being stuck in a block of wood example). I remember reading a book on Iaido (spelling? - the art of drawing the sword) which described means of preventing an opponent from utilizing their weapon by partially drawing ones own sword (in very close quarters of course) in such a way as to prevent the opponent from removing their sword from its container. (This, of course would lead into an attack, but if the goal is non-violence, there is a certain amount of intimidation value to a move like this).
Intimidation : Prevent combat through fear. Waving a gun at someone, verbal threats, playing on superstitions (for example, making "arcane" gestures to make someone believe that you are capable of magic, or some such), disguise (wearing the badge or uniform of a powerful organization, that would not be happy if one of it''s members were attacked - the clergy perhaps). Calling for "backup" (whether the call will be answered or not).
Escape : End combat by distancing oneself from the situation. Run really fast. Use diversionary tactics (irritating powders, tear gas, camera flash, etc). Feign death. Lead the opponent to exhaustion by expending less energy in blocking or dodging than they do in attacking.
-pwd
The ultimate goal would be to bring an end to the combat, without causing harm to the opponent.
Entanglement : Incapacitate the opponent in some fashion, without causing harm. Handcuffs, shackles, wrestling/holds, lengths of rope or chain (I recall a story about a police force that was trained to bind the wrists of their opponents with a length of rope as they struck), nets, cloaks, etc. Combat would end when the opponent was no longer able to attack/resist/move or whatever.
Disarmament : Somehow disabling the opponents primary means of attack. This could be anything from knocking the weapon away, destroying the weapon somehow, or jamming it (the sword being stuck in a block of wood example). I remember reading a book on Iaido (spelling? - the art of drawing the sword) which described means of preventing an opponent from utilizing their weapon by partially drawing ones own sword (in very close quarters of course) in such a way as to prevent the opponent from removing their sword from its container. (This, of course would lead into an attack, but if the goal is non-violence, there is a certain amount of intimidation value to a move like this).
Intimidation : Prevent combat through fear. Waving a gun at someone, verbal threats, playing on superstitions (for example, making "arcane" gestures to make someone believe that you are capable of magic, or some such), disguise (wearing the badge or uniform of a powerful organization, that would not be happy if one of it''s members were attacked - the clergy perhaps). Calling for "backup" (whether the call will be answered or not).
Escape : End combat by distancing oneself from the situation. Run really fast. Use diversionary tactics (irritating powders, tear gas, camera flash, etc). Feign death. Lead the opponent to exhaustion by expending less energy in blocking or dodging than they do in attacking.
-pwd
Author
Hey Wavinator,
I saw a sci-fi comic once, where ricochet was the Good Guys main technique. They had some kind of deflector plates attached to their arms, legs and chest, so they were directing the enemy laser shots back at them by proper positioning their deflectors in special formations. In a low-gravity environment the combat looked like a ballet/laser show combination. It would be hard, though, to implement good controls for the deflectors, unless you give the player only one of them.
Boby Dimitrov
boby@azholding.com
I saw a sci-fi comic once, where ricochet was the Good Guys main technique. They had some kind of deflector plates attached to their arms, legs and chest, so they were directing the enemy laser shots back at them by proper positioning their deflectors in special formations. In a low-gravity environment the combat looked like a ballet/laser show combination. It would be hard, though, to implement good controls for the deflectors, unless you give the player only one of them.
Boby Dimitrov
boby@azholding.com
This topic shouldn''t be left behind, it is very important.
In my opinion offensive actions can be also considered into deffensive actions, since attacking with your sword can make null the attack of another sword. The same thing can be achieved with magic, when a destructive spell is casted and you want to nullify it without getting hurt at all you just cast another destructive spell that would make the other one explode.
So defensive gameplay can be started to be achieved by implementing attacks to defend yourself and without hurting your opponent.
Dark Era: Concealed Evil.
The next generation of online gaming.
By Drakonix Studios
In my opinion offensive actions can be also considered into deffensive actions, since attacking with your sword can make null the attack of another sword. The same thing can be achieved with magic, when a destructive spell is casted and you want to nullify it without getting hurt at all you just cast another destructive spell that would make the other one explode.
So defensive gameplay can be started to be achieved by implementing attacks to defend yourself and without hurting your opponent.
Dark Era: Concealed Evil.
The next generation of online gaming.
By Drakonix Studios
Author
quote:So defensive gameplay can be started to be achieved by implementing attacks to defend yourself and without hurting your opponent.
Yes, that is w/o you hurting your opponent, but how about your opponent hurting himself ?
Boby Dimitrov
boby@azholding.com
Great post pwd, you''ve classified them all 
ADOM had a lot of defensive gameplay to it.
It had two defensive attributes : armor resistance (if you are hit, you take less damage) and defence (the ability to escape blows). Tougher armor added to the first but decreased the second, so you had to make a trade-off between these two. Some weapons also droped your defence. You could wield shields that increased both of these, but that would decrease your attack, cause shields dont attack.
Then there was the awesome tactics system. It allowed a range of options between coward (most defence, less attack and no weapon experience gained) and berserker (big defence penalty, big attack bonus, good xp gain).
If you were surounded by many monsters, they had larger chances to hit you, so you had to go coward and run into a coridor.
entanglement :
- cream pies, blindness potions that can be hurled and caused temporary blindess.
- create web spell and magic wand
- create pit, earthquake, dig option that made a pit monsters could fall into
- confusion, sleep, paralyze spells
escape :
- teleportation traps (you could use them), teleportation spell, wand and scroll, teleportation control ability (you could even use teleport on the monster itself, or make him walk into the trap. The tough ones were resistant though.)
- dig wand and spell (can get you out of a corner)
- speed potions and speed attribute (ie, if you had a lot of items and got "burdened", you moved slower, harder to escape)
intimidation :
- charm monster spell
Good ideea ! And it shouldnt be that hard to implement. A system similar to critical hits : your tactics settings, your martial arts skills, your weapons special ability, the enemies attributes and who knows what else can all add or substract to the chance of an attack redirection. When this happens, you might have a choice as to who do you want to redirect the attack to so that you can kill other monsters using the big monsters attack.
I propose an equilibrum attribute (maybe not the best name). It has a max value depending on player stats, skills, armor. In combat it drops and recovers very fast. If you get hit, it drops a lot. If you dodge a hit, it drops. If you block a blow with your shield, it drops less. If you make a wild swing with a heavy weapon, it drops like hell.
Using such an attribute can solve these problems :
- more monsters get you killed very fast (first few hits drop your equilibrum, then the others all hit you, possibly with critical hits)
- slow retreat as a gameplay option (you retreat, in the time it takes your oponents to follow you, your equilibrum recovers a lot)
- special no damage attacks (kick his legs, push, bash with shield : no damage, large chance of success, and large equilibrum drop, maybe enough to allow a well placed blow to the head. Throw a rat, snake, spider at your oponent. Throw sand in his face. All drop equilibrum.)
- missed huge blows arent always such a catastrophy : if you swing with a huge axe and he has to jump to the sides and roll over (equilibrum drops to 0), you have all the time in the world to take your axe and go for him again (he might retreat to recover eq) (that is unless he is very skilled and can dodge the blow and still have enough equilibrum to hit back)
- feints (drop enemy eq)
- deceits : ("look there!" *points behind enemy* "where ?" *enemy looks behind his shoulder* -enemy eq drops- *BANG*)
- shakey feet spell, fear spell
ADOM had a lot of defensive gameplay to it.
It had two defensive attributes : armor resistance (if you are hit, you take less damage) and defence (the ability to escape blows). Tougher armor added to the first but decreased the second, so you had to make a trade-off between these two. Some weapons also droped your defence. You could wield shields that increased both of these, but that would decrease your attack, cause shields dont attack.
Then there was the awesome tactics system. It allowed a range of options between coward (most defence, less attack and no weapon experience gained) and berserker (big defence penalty, big attack bonus, good xp gain).
If you were surounded by many monsters, they had larger chances to hit you, so you had to go coward and run into a coridor.
entanglement :
- cream pies, blindness potions that can be hurled and caused temporary blindess.
- create web spell and magic wand
- create pit, earthquake, dig option that made a pit monsters could fall into
- confusion, sleep, paralyze spells
escape :
- teleportation traps (you could use them), teleportation spell, wand and scroll, teleportation control ability (you could even use teleport on the monster itself, or make him walk into the trap. The tough ones were resistant though.)
- dig wand and spell (can get you out of a corner)
- speed potions and speed attribute (ie, if you had a lot of items and got "burdened", you moved slower, harder to escape)
intimidation :
- charm monster spell
quote:
Original post by BobyDimitrov
Yes, that is w/o you hurting your opponent, but how about your opponent hurting himself ?
Good ideea ! And it shouldnt be that hard to implement. A system similar to critical hits : your tactics settings, your martial arts skills, your weapons special ability, the enemies attributes and who knows what else can all add or substract to the chance of an attack redirection. When this happens, you might have a choice as to who do you want to redirect the attack to so that you can kill other monsters using the big monsters attack.
I propose an equilibrum attribute (maybe not the best name). It has a max value depending on player stats, skills, armor. In combat it drops and recovers very fast. If you get hit, it drops a lot. If you dodge a hit, it drops. If you block a blow with your shield, it drops less. If you make a wild swing with a heavy weapon, it drops like hell.
Using such an attribute can solve these problems :
- more monsters get you killed very fast (first few hits drop your equilibrum, then the others all hit you, possibly with critical hits)
- slow retreat as a gameplay option (you retreat, in the time it takes your oponents to follow you, your equilibrum recovers a lot)
- special no damage attacks (kick his legs, push, bash with shield : no damage, large chance of success, and large equilibrum drop, maybe enough to allow a well placed blow to the head. Throw a rat, snake, spider at your oponent. Throw sand in his face. All drop equilibrum.)
- missed huge blows arent always such a catastrophy : if you swing with a huge axe and he has to jump to the sides and roll over (equilibrum drops to 0), you have all the time in the world to take your axe and go for him again (he might retreat to recover eq) (that is unless he is very skilled and can dodge the blow and still have enough equilibrum to hit back)
- feints (drop enemy eq)
- deceits : ("look there!" *points behind enemy* "where ?" *enemy looks behind his shoulder* -enemy eq drops- *BANG*)
- shakey feet spell, fear spell
Author
quote:Original post by Diodor
I propose an equilibrum attribute (maybe not the best name). It has a max value depending on player stats, skills, armor. In combat it drops and recovers very fast. If you get hit, it drops a lot. If you dodge a hit, it drops. If you block a blow with your shield, it drops less. If you make a wild swing with a heavy weapon, it drops like hell.
Hey Diodor,
As I see it, this "equilibrum attribute" is some combination between:
- action points from turn-based combat games, like Fallout
- time needed to perform attack
- time needed to recover after attack
- initiative rolls from pnp RPGs
Which leads me to a idea... What if in a turn-based combat system you could spare some of your action points for defence in the opponent''s turn? Example: Player 1 and Player 2 fighting in an office. Player 1 goes first (high initiative). He has 10 AP. He can attack with all 10 points or he can save some of them for defensive maneuers in Player 2''s turn.
- If Player 1 chooses to attack with all point, Player 2 gets a chance to set points from his next turns'' for defence.
- If Player 2 wants to defend, he loses those points in his next turn, but prevents damage and loss of AP due to Player 1''s attack.
- If Player 2 does not want to defend, he would have more points for stronger counterattack, but risks AP loss, due to Player 1''s attack.
- Player 1''s attack could either way lower Player 2''s AP for Turn 2, because he''s knocked out, stunned, etc.
- In Turn 2, Player 1 would not have any AP to defend himself, which makes him very vunerable.
- Player 2 gets to attack and he has the same options as Player 1 previous turn.
- If Player 1 chooses to save some APs for defense, he would not make much damage, but he could prevents further AP loss due to Player 2''s attack in Turn 2.
Now players have to think before they act, because a single wrong step could put them out in one Turn, and there isn''t any Undos
. Also, different weapons/shields (or w/s usage techniques)could have bonuses/penalties to the APs, so player would have to choose very carefully how to counteract specific weapon or defensive maneurs.My several cents...
Boby Dimitrov
boby@azholding.com
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