Quote:Original post by Majorlag
I'm going to go ahead and say it, because the others seem too polite. I apologize in advance for being so blunt about it, but: Quit acting like an arrogant p***k. You seem to think that you know everything there is to know about game design and as such believe that it is your right to have your vision made.

You don't even know how much you don't know. You have no experience, no way of knowing the pitfalls of the real development process, no way to know how to deal with unforeseen problems, no way to know how to deal with outright failure. Thats why you have to work your way up, its a learning process as well as a way to prove yourself.

Riggghhttt thanks for that…Seriously, thanks. It is now completely obvious that despite what I tried to explain about the way I felt, I have come across as an arrogant, bumbling fool. I clearly have given you all completely the wrong impression and have accomplished quite the opposite of what I had hoped.

I am not a complete dunce you know, I have worked in a team before and observed the development process of a large mod. I’ve been on the receiving end of someone that had a ‘grand vision’ and wanted others to do the work because he couldn’t himself, and indeed I tried to help him accomplish that. In my own little realm of modding I make or modify all my own textures, shaders and sort of makeshift ‘models’ if you could call them that… I plan out all the level flow, weapon placements and level design etc, and arrange all the beta testing. My experience may only be limited to the game that I mod for, but its not like I don’t know anything at all.

Obviously however those experiences cannot be extrapolated into the larger world of game design, and it is now clear that it is probably 95% impossible that I or anyone else would ever get their own ‘grand idea’ realised in real life.

Quote:Original post by Kekko
Nozyspy:
I consider myself a good programmer. Not great, really good or brilliant, but good. I'm probably among the better ones you can get for free. Because you know what? I would totally join you and help you envision your dream *if* I had the time over which I haven't since another guy with a vision snapped me up already.

But assuming I had that time, here is what I look for in hobby projects, speaking only from my very own personal experience:

- Awesomeness! Sell me a design/idea! This is usually done through a great design document or something similar that contains as much information as possible about the game. I'm a little confused why you come here complaining about why no one will make a game out of your great idea when you don't even tell us your idea. And no, a paragraph or two doesn't count. We want sketches of game screens, gameplay features, character bios and monster details (or whatever your game contains), etc. If you can sell your idea to developers, then you can probably sell it to players (with sell here meaning convincing them to download and try it). Most people here know that coming up with a couple of paragraphs is ridicolously easy while filling in all the details is fricking hard. From what you have said here, I cannot envision a game, there is just not enough information. And if I cannot envision a game, I will not be inspired. And if I'm not inspired, I'll not work for free.

- I want to do what I think is funny. If I sign up to program the game, I don't want to do manual writing or playtesting or marketing or art or sound engineering or something else. And the artist will probably only want to make art. You have basically three ways to make people work on your dream. You can sell your dream so well that it becomes their dream too (see above), you can pay them or you can make sure they have fun while working on it. This probably means that YOU will have to do a lot of stuff that nobody else likes to do, like playtesting, documenting,

What I'm trying to say is that if you can show us a great idea for a game (Not just telling us you have it, I also have several.) and promise us that you will take care of everything and just let us get on with programming/art making/music composing or whatever we want to do, then I think you will find willing recruits. Which means you'll be both designer, manager and producer. And all these three roles are just as hard and probably harder to be good at than being a good programmer or artist.

Thank you! Finally someone who is at least positive! Your comments are appreciated mate. You also touched on the main thing that I left out – completely on purpose – details of the idea. As I do some modding, I am used to keeping details quiet until they have more fully ripened, so that no one else might take the idea and claim it for themselves (which has nearly happened before…).

Sorry about that, but that’s just what I have learned to do.

The bare bones of my ‘fantasmagorical idea’ are thus:

- Period adventure, including references to and appearances of (real life) people and places.

- Archaeology, ancient mysteries. And no, not an Indy or Tomb Raider Rip off…

- A Mixture of FPS and exploration / puzzle gameplay. Though with more of a focus on the FPS side.

- Locations that most people have never heard of, but which do really exist and are ‘real life’ adventurer sort of places, mixed in with some fictitious locations. Including the ruins of Babylon, the Great Sphinx and the lost tomb of Alexander the Great.

- Bad guys: Sinister Germans / Russians – people who generally make good bad guys… And a burned to a crisp ‘uber mummy’.

Those are just a flimsy few of my ideas, the details are locked away in my brain. Since most of you said that ideas alone are worthless, I thought I should write a few down. Perhaps they are worth 0.001p now?

Clearly though I should just stick to writing a book…or maybe making some kind of mod, since it is clear now that getting your idea noticed is not as simple as I desperately hoped it would be.

I should probably just get lost soon I think.

Quote:Clearly though I should just stick to writing a book…or maybe making some kind of mod, since it is clear now that getting your idea noticed is not as simple as I desperately hoped it would be.

Being that you often mention books, movies in reference to your game, it seems to me that you have an idea for a story but arn't entirely sure what medium to use.

One thing to think about is what are you trying to achieve in turning it into a game vs writing a short story or novel? Is it just for the coolness factor of having made your own game? is it to make money? or is it truely the best way for someone to experience your idea?

Also, you mention a lot of your modding experience. Mods are a great way to see your ideas (especially stories) come to life. Is there a reason you don't want to turn the idea into a mod? There's many game engines out there these days and I'm sure you could find one that's somewhat close to the mark and take it from there.

Quote:Original post by Telastyn
And really, it sounds like a Indy/Tomb Raider/Mummy rip off... (and I fear perhaps a dollop of Myst *shudder*)

Nonsense! It could be a Lovecraft ripoff. Oh wait, sinister Germans? Honestly, it sounds like Return to Castle Wolfenstein.

Quote:Originally posted by Nozyspy

I ask myself this question constantly, as it is probably the thing that annoys me most about the games industry. The thing is, everywhere I read says the same thing; go to a university, do loads of courses, become a lowly minion at an unheard-of games studio and then somehow work your way up into a decent position at one of the well known studios. All this must be accomplished before you die of old age, if you ever want a crack at designing your own game.

Not exactly. You must go to university, do loads of courses, become a lowly minion and somehow (maybe) work your way up to a lead designer position on a project in a competent development team. For all you know, it might not even be a project of your choice!

Nobody said anything about getting a crack at designing your own game in the sense that you're given complete freedom to be creative and design something original from scratch, develop your own ideas and such.

There are only two ways to have such freedom (obviously limited only by what is technically possible or rational). One is to be an amateur game developer and do everything yourself the way you want to, and the other is to be the producer who finances everything.

Today there are such things as fixed standards and expectations for each and every genre and sort of game. I won't pretend to know much about inner workings of leading development teams in the industry, but I highly doubt that too many (if any) people in game design today have as much creative and artistic freedom as seems to be the popular opinion among aspiring game designers.

Hmm thanks for the insightful comments chaps.

Quote:Original post by Telastyn
And really, it sounds like a Indy/Tomb Raider/Mummy rip off... (and I fear perhaps a dollop of Myst *shudder*)

It is absolutely nothing like any of them!

Quote:Original post by gxaxhx
Being that you often mention books, movies in reference to your game, it seems to me that you have an idea for a story but arn't entirely sure what medium to use.

One thing to think about is what are you trying to achieve in turning it into a game vs writing a short story or novel? Is it just for the coolness factor of having made your own game? is it to make money? or is it truely the best way for someone to experience your idea?

The story could be adapted for any medium. However there are problems with each. The story requires some globetrotting, going to many disparate locations in a film is not an easy thing to pull off. Games don’t always allow the set-piece scenes that you might want. And as for books…well generally there are no pictures in novels (though you can add them on the odd page, as I have seen in some Sherlock Holmes novels), the thing is that one of the underlying themes of the story requires subtle hints dropped in here and there.

For instance, near the start, a bunch of coal miners dig out a lump of coal with an odd gold object encased within it, The patterns on the object crop here and there throughout the game and are meant to refer to the ‘grand scheme’ of the overall story arc. The thing is that these patterns aren’t meant to be obvious – a carving on a wall, a symbol in a scroll. The player is meant to just ‘notice’ these things appearing now and again without the story requiring that they be explained, at least in the first ‘part’. The idea is that each story is self contained and yet this common thread runs through them all, becoming more obvious untill it becomes the main objective of the final ‘story’. Like I said, the story arc idea I had in mind is meant to be split over three ‘episodes’.

Quote:Original post by Captain P
You've mentioned your modding experience a few times. I'm curious - how much experience do you have with releasing mods/levels?


One of the things I learned from modding and level-design was that, unless you happen to have the same taste as your target audience, going by what you like can be rather dangerous. It's always important to let other people test your levels, to see how they work out with the public. I've been able to build some fine levels because I had playtesters. The main reason why some of my levels are flawed is the lack of playtesting. Sometimes, playtesters pointed out things they found fun, where I didn't expect them. At other times, they asked me to change or remove things that I thought would work well.

Modding experience… Jedi Academy is one of my favourite games of all time (ridicule that all you want!) and the engine used is really very modifiable if you know what you are doing. I make multiplayer maps for this game, nine released maps, 2 in production and one on the drawing board. I released my first level in 2004, however I modded for my own enjoyment for almost a couple of years before that. I have my own site and I work as a file reviewer at JK2files.

I have studied the singleplayer and multiplayer level design in this and quite a few other games to get a sense of the linearity or the ‘openworldiness’ of them.

I am seriously considering trying to make a mod about this idea, but that still requires much searching and enquiry to ascertain its practicality and feasibility.

Wavinator, your suggestions are excellent, a lot of excellent points there, so thanks for that mate.

I only offered a few small snippets of my idea before, so I will elucidate a bit further.

The story is set in the late 20’s early 30’s when the Nazi’s first started poking their noses around. As everyone knows they were obsessed with many ancient mysteries which they hoped would further their quest for world domination. They also make excellent bad guys, because frankly everyone hates their guts, they’re evil and sinister.

The protagonist is a middle class Englishman, who fought and was a Major / Lt. Colonel during WW1. Not rich, but not poor either, so no super rich Lara Croft-alikes here. Said character worked for British intelligence, which automatically bestows upon him all the necessary prerequisites of brains and toughness etc. that you expect from an adventure hero. Possibly related to a famous archaeologist, hence the interest and training, or protégé of a famous university professor.

The idea is that there is a hierarchy of bad guys, and that the initial one you encounter is just one of the lower bad guys. The mastermind being someone who you for the most part only hear in voice, similar to how Professor Moriarty is in some of the Sherlock Holmes stories.

The artefact(s) – here there are some problems, which I am still trying to resolve. My grand scheme is that the lump of coal with the gold object embedded in it is what starts off the main thread of the series leading to a hunt for pieces of a device. The device can bestow upon the user great power, but only if they are strong enough to contain its power. Here is where the burned to a crisp mummy comes in. the device destroyed his body but his mind was strong enough to contain its power.

Ehem, back to the original McGuffin for the first story, this is where the problem lies. Really I would like it to be unrelated to the main story arc. The idea is that the first story is self contained, similar to how the original Star Wars movie is, in that it is a story in its own right but can be infinitely expanded upon should it be successful.

My original thought is the Ark of the Covenant. Now, this is not a cheep Indy rip-off. As far as I understand the Ark actually ‘disappeared’ after the Babylonian’s besieged Jerusalem, hence logically it should be in Babylon, not Tanis in Egypt… This story route allows some interesting globe trotting, since the idea is that the Ark is sealed in a hidden vault under the ruins of Babylon. Once the Babylonian’s captured it they became terrified of it and the Hebrew God, and sealed it underground so no-one could ever find it, and it wouldn’t bother them. Out of sight, out of mind as they say.

The door to the said vault can only be unlocked with 4 / 5 keys, each of which was given to an important Babylonian official. Through time Babylon was conquered by many nations. So one piece of the key is in the Tomb of Nebuchadnezzar, another in the lost tomb of Alexander the Great, and after the British gained control of Iraq one piece is in the basement of the British museum, etc.

The problem with the story is that its been done before in Raiders of the Lost Ark, and it also presents interesting religious issues since the Ark is a sacred object to a few different religions.

Alternatives could be a ‘sun stone’ that illuminates the surroundings without fire, some kind of ancient sword or other device.

Enough of the story, onto the gameplay.

The gameplay is more action oriented than Tomb Raider, however set piece puzzles would still play an important role in reaching the main objectives of each level. The environment should play a major role in the game, with the player having to find an appropriate path down a mountain pass for example, avoiding sheer drops and falling boulders. There being multiple paths down to the bottom. All the while enemies occasionally pop out from behind boulders and take pot shots at you.

One idea I had was for a British museum basement level. Basically you have a 30 minute time limit before a bunch of things turn up to find the ‘thing’ that is being searched for. You have to make your way around several large rooms and crowbar crates open until you find what you are looking for. The object could be magnetic ala Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, hence you would have a compass on the HUD to help you find your way to it. To avoid frustration the level might not end when the countdown timer expires, but rather, along with finding the object, you now have a bunch of armed goons to deal with.

No blood or sex and very minimal swearing, I envision this being suitable for most ages, these things aren’t necessary for a good game anyways. Weapons include army issue rifle and pistol, along with a shotgun, grenades and possibly some form of sword.

A sidekick (probably a young American with a penchant for fast cars) who will join you occasionally perhaps offering hints as to which direction to take and help in combat. This character ends the game with two Bentleys. How?! See below.

During the course of the story your discoveries will earn you a nice paycheque (including one from the Greek government). Your house serves the same purpose as Croft Manor in the TR games. Part for fun, and part training area. As you earn money from your discoveries you can add extra ‘bits’ onto your house like an extension, or a firing range etc. This could be nearer the end of the game, at the start of game ‘#2’ or at strategic points throughout the game so you can go back to your house and practice new moves, aim, awareness etc.

Right, those are again just a few of my ideas, I cant write any more as my fingers are tired, and I don’t want to tell you everything! I am sure I can trust you guys, but, ehhmm, who knows who else reads these forums?!

o.O

Noz

I really think you should just start writing novels instead of trying to make games. You clearly have a lot more ideas for story than gameplay and I doubt a game would make a better medium without turning gameplay into boring grind with story doled out one bit at a time as a reward.