Quote:Original post by Hawkins8
players are getting sick of such a kind of EQ clones, or not.

OK, let me correct this. YOU are sick of EQ clones. Since people are buying EQ clones and playing them vigorously, I suppose it's not THAT bad.

Quote:Original post by Hawkins8
players' desires are not met due to the lack of genius designers, or not.

Your desires. Don't mix the rest of us into your discontent.

Hawkins8 - are you working on a game at the moment?

Quote:Original post by Metallon
OK, let me correct this. YOU are sick of EQ clones. Since people are buying EQ clones and playing them vigorously, I suppose it's not THAT bad.

They are hopping one after one. I already said that. It won't make your statement more regitimate. Continue to live in denial all you want.

Quote:
Your desires. Don't mix the rest of us into your discontent.

Hmm..what make you think that you are more legitmate to represent more?

Just another pointless one trying to justify how legitimate it is to live in denial.

Quote:Original post by Hawkins8
They hopping one after one. I already said that. It won't make your statement more regitimate. Continue to live in denial all you want.

I'm not denying anything, am I? And not everyone is hopping between games. Maybe you are, but that doesn't mean everyone else is. Every friend of mine that plays MMO's stick with one MMO. Though there are other games they play. And really, it's not a bad thing if you hop even bewteen MMO's, as long as you regularly play them, right?

Quote:Original post by Hawkins8
Hmm..what make you think that you are more legitmate to represent more?

Just another pointless one trying to justify how legitimate it is to live in denial.

I never said that. I just stated that just because you think one thing doesn't necessarily mean everyone else agrees.

Quote:Original post by Metallon
I never said that. I just stated that just because you think one thing doesn't necessarily mean everyone else agrees.

Good. I never intended to ask everyone to agree with me. All I said here is that, the below arguments are legitimate points for a discussion. No?


cookie-cutter games are made in reality, or not.
players are getting sick of such a kind of EQ clones, or not.
players' desires are not met due to the lack of genius designers, or not.


The 'or not' choice is always available for anyone to choose. Yet it seems to me that those proclaimed indies are offended whenever the legitimate discussion points are voiced out.

So as a fellow nobody and someone beginning to attempt to break in to the industry, I figured I'd pass on some general observations. It may amount to some encouragement to fellow nobodies, and be little more than a point of contention for all the so-called somebodies, but I'm more concerned with the former than the latter.

The principle rule I've learned thus far is no matter how profound, world-changing, or stellar I think my new idea is, it's worth just about nothing. I've come to associate these profound, world-changing, stellar ideas of my own with American Idol contestants, of all things. If every musician and vocalist in Hollywood suddenly croaked and we had a severe entertainment shortage, I may be able to justify a show like American Idol. Fact is the industry is saturated with talent, and another outlet for the same old thing is just a drop in the bucket that is already full to begin with. My ideas and stories alone aren't enough, and there are already 109140109241442 of them, times infinity.

That's not to say there isn't the rare circumstance, where the planets align and some lucky bastard trips into a career in the industry at a fraction of the effort his or her peers put forth, but it's one in a million and much safer to assume you'll have to claw and dig for every damned inch you get. That's not to say we all wouldn't like to be that one, but while everyone else is dreaming those big dreams I'd just assume be in the foxhole, doing things the hard way and earning my inches.

How do you get five minutes with the shot callers at a game studio? Nobody on these forums, industry pro or otherwise can answer that. If there was a three step method, we'd all do it. I resolve daily that I won't just get five minutes with the boss, but I'll be the boss. But I'll do it with degrees, hard work on a portfolio, experience from the very bottom end of the ladder whether it's with a studio or not, and constant application and zombie-like persistence on what I demand of myself. Plus, in the games industry "the boss" is more like numerous people all of whom get pitched something daily, and are damned certain their ideas of what the shelves need is better than yours.

If it's a career in games you want and you're anything like me, you'll find a way in. But it won't be a walk in the park, and you're ready to go to Hell and back if necessary to make your mark. Things like that don't fall out of the sky, or come from internet forums or even a good story idea.

I have absolutely zero experience in the *field* of game design on a professional level, but I can say that this thread had some great information, even if it isn't stuff you *want* to hear as a budding game designer, it is stuff you *need* to hear.

I annoyed a lot of my computer programmer friends for years wanting them to create my ideas. One of them finally started asking me these same questions that the other posters are asking you. I didn't have all the answers right at hand, I wasn't experienced. I hadn't made more complicated computer games before. My experience was limited to board games made while I was a kid, and GW BASIC programming from the same time period, but I had a feeling that I shouldn't need to learn everything about making a computer game to have good enough ideas to get one made.

The best advice I ever got from that friend was to google "Game Design Document" and make one for my 'billion dollar game idea'. Eight years later I have 300 pages (17 of which is just a table of contents) of a design document that isn't finished (by about 200 pages). In that time I've gained some very important things: a much more humbling approach to the realization of completing a game, a good friend who is writing a game engine, and a plethora of smaller -completable- game designs that we will finish up first.

The biggest thing is to get it all down on paper. As easy as it is to explain your project to people who are asking you questions, most people don't want to have to ask you questions. Why should they do all of the work to learn about your idea? Even if you got the meeting, it wouldn't mean anything without that document. As my mom used to say, live gives you the things you need when you're ready for them. Don't be too upset about not being able to get the meeting with the gaming execs until you're ready to meet with them.

Do I think that if I had a couple of hours with the head of a big game company that this whole process could have gone a lot faster? Maybe. But after learning so much more about the design process, I don't feel as strongly about it. When I did the research about the feasibility of completing *my* game, on *my* terms I realized how much capital and time it would take to develop. Then I thought about whether I would, if I had the money, trust it on someone untried - and I couldn't honestly say that I would. If my design document in hand, I know my odds would be better, but even then I'm not sure it would be enough.

The design document is the only chance you have at getting your game made, without actually making your game yourself, or working your way up, or proving yourself on other games. They are a lot of work (not necessarily as much as I've put in, since you're not talking about a full-on MMORPG). If you have the desire - and write one - make sure you spend as much time as your are technically capable of (and learn as much as you can) on the implementation sections of this document. Writing those sections is a crash course in back-end game design on its own and will illuminate a lot of what is not technically possible. If you can get a programmer involved as much as possible in these parts. In the (extremely likely) chance you can't get a meeting with someone, you can send a well written design document out the same way authors can send out manuscripts. If its well written, and the company is receptive, you might get your meeting.

With regards to story, it is important to many games. However, you do need to understand that in most cases (in fact since reading this entire thread I have been unsuccessful in coming up with an example of a case where it wouldn't be - though I allow for the possibility of its existence) the story is not as important as the game play - because take the same game, alter the story (which includes characters and settings, though not necessarily mechanics) and it can be, in its essence, the same game. This doesn't mean that a good story isn't important; it just means that a good story won't make a good game. A few of people will trudge through a bad game for a good story, but not enough to be profitable.

And I understand about the importance of a good story, and the desire for yours to be told - I started writing the novels of my game story as an alternate route to getting the game made. If the books become popular enough - then you suddenly have a marketable IP and that can definitely get you meetings with the right people in the game industry because a marketable IP means (to some extent) less risk. So take that route if it seems more appealing to you.

I don't know if my advice will help you at all, I'm not sure if I would have listened myself eight years ago. But while the road is long, it no longer seems as impossible as when I wasn't taking what steps I *could* do, because of what I hoped others would do. The key to removing frustration in any project is to eliminate the need to rely on the actions of people other than yourself...

...then realize you can't do it all yourself and be extremely grateful for any help you can get. :-D

Just an aside, guys : Hawkins8 isn't here to discuss the topic, rather he's here to insult and flame those that disagree with him in whatever manner he can. He started that over on our boards as well recently:
http://vnboards.ign.com/mmorpg_concepts_and_design_discussion_forum/b22584/108970515/p1/?17

Don't let him sidetrack your thread.