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Carnivorous Duck

Would you consider Thief II an RPG?

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It had RPG elements - Compelling storylines, (scripted) NPC interaction, character development in the form of item purchases - and certainly FPS elements - first person view, action-oriented combat. Would you say that it falls under the RPG category? What are the defining aspects that make it an RPG, or a non-RPG, in your opinion?

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No I do not agree that it was an RPG and many others wouldn''t too. An RPG is more in depth in many ways. Firstly, most RPGs have a level system which determines how powerful your character(s) are. Usually, these is used in conjunction with a statistics system.

Also, character development in the form of item purchases just doesn''t make it an RPG. Take for example Diablo 1/2. They are not RPGs but they have all the above qualities. There are more to it then just that.

It is hard to define the aspects of an RPG, but the feel of the game surely is one, for Diablo sure doesn''t feel like one. One reason was probably there wasn''t enough NPC interaction.

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Carnivorous Duck, I also do not consider Thief an cRPG game. It''s as cRPG as Diablo is, and maybe even less.

Darkor, you don''t really need leveling system to have a cRPG, IMO. But I do agree that interaction, not only with the NPCs, but with the game world as a whole, is one of the most important things. Neither Thief, nor Diablo had a decent interaction level.

Maybe there should be a topic "Define cRPGs" after all.


Boby Dimitrov
boby@azholding.com

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Aaargh! No! No! Not another ''What is an RPG?'' thread! Because that is what this will surely degenerate into.

The RPG ''category'' doesn''t exist. It''s too fuzzy a term, loaded with many preconceptions, misconceptions, and connotations. Does it mean stats based games, in the same vein as the original Dungeons and Dragons rules? Does it relate to the later tabletop games, with an emphasis on ''acting a part'', or ''staying in character''? Or to self-professed computer ''role-playing games'' which are sometimes one, sometimes the other...

Why do we care what category a game falls into? Why not evaluate the features that it contains, rather than worry about slapping a label on the composite of those features? Leave that until you need to market it.

To be annoying: Thief is an RPG. It''s a game, and you play a role (Garrett, the thief.) Thief is a FPS. It''s from the first person perspective, and you shoot things. Thief is an RTS. It''s played in real time, and involves a lot of strategy.

Who cares?

Kylotan, slightly annoyed that we get too many threads like this.

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I''m with Kylotan on this one. There is no one true definition of RPG, so there''s no way you could answer the question. But I''d say that at the very least, very few people who bought Thief did so because they thought it would have roleplaying elements...

And I think that goes some way to answering the question.


People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
Mad Keith the V.

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Thief was definitely an RPG because it took place in medieval times. Just kidding. I just had to say that to upset Wavinator

I'm 100% with Kylotan on this as well, but I have to say that Thief falls into my personal definition of an RPG better than any other game. This is because it allows you to play a role and truly act within that role. And it allows for the freedom to not act within that role too. This allows player choice and game elements that reward playing within a role.

But I agree w/ Kylotan overall. I'm so tired of these discussions.





...A CRPG in development...

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.


Edited by - Nazrix on June 12, 2001 11:56:53 AM

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Nazrix, Kylotan, don''t you sometimes get the impression that we''re getting old?
I mean, all we''re doing lately is posting about how we''re "tired" of certain discussions, hehehe...

Startrek 25, "So very tired".


People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
Mad Keith the V.

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I guess you should start a section in GameDev that publishes articles from conclusions that were made here in the forums. Therefore if someone asks about it you just tell them where they can find info about it. And sometimes newbies would just go to that articles section before trying to discuss here in the forums.

Now you just have to find someone who would like to make a smaller version of the RPG levels thread.



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quote:
Original post by Nazrix

Thief was definitely an RPG because it took place in medieval times. Just kidding. I just had to say that to upset Wavinator



DOH!!!! I heard that!!!!!

quote:

I''m 100% with Kylotan on this as well, but I have to say that Thief falls into my personal definition of an RPG better than any other game. This is because it allows you to play a role and truly act within that role. And it allows for the freedom to not act within that role too. This allows player choice and game elements that reward playing within a role.



It''s interesting to see at what point a cRPG crosses the line and becomes a simulator. Thief to me was almost a "Thief Simulator," which was really cool. It didn''t have the freedom that I''ve come to expect in a cRPG, but it certainly put you in a role.

quote:

But I agree w/ Kylotan overall. I''m so tired of these discussions.


LOL! Time to break out the walkers and Geritol, guys!


--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

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quote:
Original post by Wavinator

It's interesting to see at what point a cRPG crosses the line and becomes a simulator. Thief to me was almost a "Thief Simulator," which was really cool. It didn't have the freedom that I've come to expect in a cRPG, but it certainly put you in a role.




The way I thought of it, it does give put you in the role, but gives you the option to ignore the role somewhat. It just punishes you for not acting like a Thief. You're free to run around like a madman slashing at everything you see but you won't live long. It rewards thinking like a thief.

I guess it doesn't offer as much physical freedom in the form of exploration as most RPGs but I think still don't find that the most crucial part of an RPG...although that's just me of course





...A CRPG in development...

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.


Edited by - Nazrix on June 12, 2001 3:24:56 PM

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I'm not old. Just chronologically challenged

I don't mean to bash the people who bring these things up again, especially when they're new to the forums and didn't really have the benefit of being there for all the past discussion. It just can get a bit tedious sometimes to feel that it's going round and round in circles.

And I love Thief, btw. So it's not like I just dislike the game. It's one of my favourites, ranking alongside Laser Squad, Doom, and Ultima VII

Edited by - Kylotan on June 12, 2001 8:02:33 PM

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To say the truth, Thief II is a Stealth FPS( First Person Shooter ). It didn''t even come close to an RPG. An RPG will, in MOST cases, have a character with stats that can be incremented depending on your actions and behaviors...



"And that''s the bottom line cause I said so!"

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quote:
Original post by Kylotan
ranking alongside Laser Squad



You''ve played Laser Squad??? You actually KNOW that game? Man, I HAVE to do a remake of that game, it was just too excellent. (I remember doing that multiplayer on a Commodore 64).




People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
Mad Keith the V.

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quote:
Original post by MadKeithV

You've played Laser Squad??? You actually KNOW that game? Man, I HAVE to do a remake of that game, it was just too excellent. (I remember doing that multiplayer on a Commodore 64).




Heh. I didn't just play Laser Squad, I lived Laser Squad. There was nothing better back then. A lot of people don't know that the X-COM and UFO games were essentially Laser Squad sequels.

If you or anyone else cares, these games were made by Mythos, who apparently went out of business fairly recently due to apparently being treated pretty poorly by their publishers. But the team have resurfaced as CoDo Games and appear to be working on another Laser Squad game! They seem to be sticking with turn-based, but making it playable on a lot more platforms, with a global league system of some sort. Similar to play-by-email technology, apparently. Looks interesting.

Anyway. If anyone wanted to work on a Laser Squad style game, I'd certainly be interested in such a project

(PS. Anyone wanting Laser Squad for the PC can get it here, with full permission of the authors.)

Edited by - Kylotan on June 13, 2001 12:46:45 PM

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