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mnowaczewski

Finding the right school - How do employers view the school?

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The purpose of this post is to determine how much which school you go to influences an employer's decision to hire you. I am currently going to school with DeVry 100% online because I cannot move away to campus of a known school right now (ISU, IIT etc) After I made a few phone calls to start planning a strategy to obtain my Masters I found out that a lot of schools dont exactly think highly of DeVry. Some schools I called included ISU, IIT among others. They all said that DeVry grads typically have to take several more courses (lower level) to make up areas that DeVry neglects (because DeVry is more of a technical school). So how do employers view DeVry grads? ... What's the best strategy to start building an impressive resume and portfolio to help land that dream job after graduation? Any comments/feedback is appreciated. Thanks.

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When I was attending school, DeVry was where people went if they wanted to be a mechanic (usually because they couldn't handle even community college).

Which is great and all; the world needs mechanics. But the breadth of skills required in software engineering is (imo) well beyond technical schooling. And the breadth of skills required for game programming is beyond your standard business software at that.

I would honestly dump a new DeVry graduate's resume without even a phone call. Companies get tons of resumes and game companies even moreso. But ignoring all that (or assuming they have a snazzy demo or some experience to offset things) there are two vital things I would need to see:

1. The ability to learn. Did the grad learn things by rote process? Do they have some learning/study problem that led to that style school? Someone who cannot learn internal libraries or how to apply a solution to a novel problem is next to useless.

2. Breadth of knowledge. Do they have the math background to handle problems in that domain? Do they have good communication/writing skills? Do they have a good critical eye for art? Or do they just know how to do X with Y on a computer?

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I think you will find that a lot of grad schools are not very keen on 'commercial education', and that includes any of the '100% online' or '90+ locations' setups. That is not to say that you can't get a decent education that way, but it doesn't tend to be viewed as highly as the more traditional, liberal arts, 4-years on campus deal.

Online courses immediately make people jittery: they provide less meaningful grades, and generally a lower calibre of education - there is really no way for the professor to tell if you are pulling all your answers from google, at least for a low-level course, and no way for them to push you either. And low-level courses are what hurts the most - specialised knowledge can largely be picked up on the job, but if your basic math, logic, problem solving or programming skills are not up to par, you wont be able to pick up the later skills quickly or easily.

On the other hand, if you have the discipline and will to drive yourself hard, and can work up a spectacular portfolio and demonstrate a similarly spectacular skillset, a lot of people wont give a damn where (or even if) you went to college.

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I really don't know why Telastyn hates a school he/she has never been to and knows absolutly nothing about but I will tell you being enrolled in DeVry was the main reason I got the job I have today. I work in IT and travel all over the middle east and europe and make a pretty hefty salary. Mind you, I don't even HAVE a degree yet, just college experience and my employer was happy to see that I was continuing my education.


That being said, if your employer judges you based on the school you chose alone, they are pretty much an idiot. How can an employer possibly know everything about every school out there? I wouldn't want to work for an employer you judges someone based on the school they went to. Just because Joe went to Harvard doesn't mean Joe is smart, can handle the job, can learn new skills on the fly, etc.

Now, if your employer hires you based on things like portfolio, competancy tests, and interviews, that is usually the company you want to work for.

@Telastyn - I mean no offense, I just don't understand why you hate DeVry so bad. It's a really good school, my favorite out of the three colleges I have been to and I have learned a lot from it. Just one of my math classes at DeVry covered what two of my math classes at Penn State covered. It's a fast paced school and a great option for people who want a more hands on education.

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Quote:
Original post by Chrono1081
That being said, if your employer judges you based on the school you chose alone, they are pretty much an idiot.

Most employers will not evaluate a candidate only based on the origins of your education. It does play its part though. You may not like it, you may think it's idiotic, but it's a reality. So it's not something you can just disregard.

Quote:
How can an employer possibly know everything about every school out there?

How can an employer possibly know everything about every applicant out there?

Unless you invite each and everyone of them, you can only judge a candidate by the resume he or she sent in. The subsequent filtering process may not be perfect, but choices have to be made. Having said that, a good portfolio or decent experience will make the actual school you went to less of an issue.

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Original post by WanMaster
Quote:
Original post by Chrono1081
That being said, if your employer judges you based on the school you chose alone, they are pretty much an idiot.

Most employers will not evaluate a candidate only based on the origins of your education. It does play its part though. You may not like it, you may think it's idiotic, but it's a reality. So it's not something you can just disregard.

Quote:
How can an employer possibly know everything about every school out there?

How can an employer possibly know everything about every applicant out there?

Unless you invite each and everyone of them, you can only judge a candidate by the resume he or she sent in. The subsequent filtering process may not be perfect, but choices have to be made. Having said that, a good portfolio or decent experience will make the actual school you went to less of an issue.


You are correct. That is what I was aiming for but after re-reading my post I see it didn't come out that way. I wanted to get the point across that experience and portfolio weigh more heavily then school choice.

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Original post by Chrono1081
I really don't know why Telastyn hates a school he/she has never been to and knows absolutly nothing about


Because clearly I am unable to read. I am unable to extrapolate information from various things I've seen, heard, read about the school. I haven't gone to Stanford or San Jose State, but having interviewed about a half dozen candidates from each I know at least a little about each school.

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but I will tell you being enrolled in DeVry was the main reason I got the job I have today.


Good for you. A job though is not a career.

Quote:

That being said, if your employer judges you based on the school you chose alone, they are pretty much an idiot.


When you're fresh out of college, they don't have much more to go on. And as Wanmaster says, it won't only be that. But if I get 2 resumes, one from DeVry and one from CMU the only way I'm looking at the DeVry resume first is if I need a code monkey or my budget requires me to hire someone on the cheap.

And gamedev employers won't get just 2 resumes. Hell, even business dev employers won't get just 2 resumes these days.

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How can an employer possibly know everything about every school out there?


They don't. They know the outliers though and the local schools. Most schools are neutral. A few are bonus points, a few are minus points.

Quote:

I wouldn't want to work for an employer you judges someone based on the school they went to.


Why in the world would you put your school on the resume if it didn't matter?

Quote:

Just because Joe went to Harvard doesn't mean Joe is smart, can handle the job, can learn new skills on the fly, etc.


And vice versa. A grad from a poorly regarded school might be smart, crafty, and skilled. Employers play the odds.

Quote:

Now, if your employer hires you based on things like portfolio, competancy tests, and interviews, that is usually the company you want to work for.


Hiring processes are only a small part of a company, and after you're hired only have small, indirect impact on you the employee. Is hiring processes indicative of company goodness elsewhere? Sometimes. Less often and less directly than a candidates education is...

Quote:

@Telastyn - I mean no offense, I just don't understand why you hate DeVry so bad.

*snip*

A great option for people who want a more hands on education.


Let's see if I can get the basic ideas communicated then...

I hate the concept of a for profit educational institution. I hate hands on education for computer science. I hate remote education. I hate trade schools.

So let's go down them one by one. I'll try to remember to bookmark this since it'll come up again...


Education as a Business

A number of problems derive quickly from the basic structure of the college.

When colleges are run for profit, the bottom line quickly impacts you the student. Cheaper (indirectly worse) professors, facilities, materials; more expensive tuition; exclusive deals on software/books; and generally having employees focused on profit over education.

It also means that the most profit comes from the most students. They'll take anyone who's got the money and isn't a public relations disaster waiting to happen. Not only are the classrooms stuffed, but you're then lumped in with those who did go there because they'll take anyone. And anyone will pass the courses... flunkies don't pay tuition.

Further, money is wasted on advertising rather than education. The bottom line only cares if you attend. The courses are tailored to what students think they want (hands on courses in fun things like game development!). Teenagers are idiots. Not that they're drooling retards, but they've really got no idea what is useful in business and rarely have the foresight to consider what they'll need in 50 years.


Hands on Computer Science

Which is funny in and of itself. What, you're going to hold algorithms in your hands?

I hate this one in particular due to my experiences as a sysadmin at the tail of the dotcom boom. By that time the IT area was flooded with fresh out of school certified admins. They could install and configure solid windows server setups in their sleep; by the book. And that was it. Any time the solution needed adaptation, it took three times as long and was buggy. They couldn't deal with non-windows stuff. They couldn't deal with non-standard software. They couldn't solve novel problems.

Computer programming is solving novel problems or you're a code monkey and your job is getting shipped overseas.


Remote Education

You know, I learned a lot more at college when I wasn't in the classroom. Those semi-protected years are invaluable for a person to learn about how the world works, how to live on your own, how to motivate and manage yourself. You meet lifetime friends (mates for some) and develop contacts. You lose all that commuting or learning online.

Online learning is still relatively new. The infrastructure is (generally) kinda shoddy, and not sufficiently interactive to provide a good learning environment (imo). You can't ask the teacher things as they're fresh in your mind. The teacher can't read the class and tailor his teaching to that feedback. It's a less effective form of education. It does have its conveniences, but if you've the option not to...

The other benefit of living on campus that often goes overlooked is cross-major learning. In most schools, especially early there's no attendance. If you've got some interest in psychology or something but are not sure you want to actually take the course (or will do well at it) you can just attend the class.

Even if you don't attend the classes, you're invariably (unless you attend a specialized school like these trade schools) going to have friends with different majors. And they're invariably going to talk about their classes, what they're learning, and at least the executive summary of their knowledge. Useful to know where to look, useful to get new ideas, useful so you see common threads and interactions within human knowledge.


Trade School

I hate specialized education. It's just not useful to software engineers. Our work is not just twiddling bits. It's taking a business requirement, knowing enough to ask questions about stuff business people invariably forget to include, knowing enough of the problem domain to translate business into technical... and even then there's about 4 steps before text goes to IDE. Having experience learning a variety of things will help you there.

A broad education helps implementing solutions as well. Most modeling or simulations will be helped by a good math background. Any GUI is helped by art study, psychology, and your written language of choice. All those boring or 'irrelevant' classes come to play in creating the solutions you then implement. Being able to draw ideas from a broad scope of human knowledge only helps you.


And now to the standard argument... Your career will be about 40 years long. Do you think we're going to be throwing up shoddy webapps in java in 40 years? Hell, do you think you're going to not change careers ever? Algorithms don't change. Data structures don't change. Concepts like coupling or data normalization don't change. Learning languages is easy. Learning APIs is easy. Learning the theory and how to apply that theory is key. Learning that via "here's how to do X with Y" is woefully insufficient to get that done.



To sum up, I hate DeVry (and its for-profit trade school kin) because it's the worst option available to make you a better person and a better programmer.

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I agree 100% with what Telastyn posted. We're located right next to it - and a DeVry education on the resume is usually the butt of a joke :)

Seriously though, if you're good at game programming it won't hurt you at all, but it won't help you. We interview all candidates fairly, and while we have minimum requirements we're looking for talent NOT where you went to school. Still, I'd recommend a better place if you can do it. I went to UIC for my undergraduate degree - best choice I ever made.


More than anything, if you want to get a job you'll need to do two things. The first is to bone up on your C++ skills, and be able to handle any reasonable question that gets thrown your way (Difference between a pointer and a reference, stl, etc) and to demonstrate that you have worked on complicated projects in the past. Take an old arcade classic, and remake it in 3d. Thats what I did :)

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Sadly for me too no University in Texas has a decree for Game making. So im going to get a masters in Computer Science at UTSA, and take there only class so far for making games. Maybe Ill hit a few online class on game making too. The point being not everyone can leave to a place that has the programs needed to get into game design.

But what you have done with what you have learned is better than where you got it. If you on your own made a lot of small to medium size games, then you could put that down on a resume too.

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Original post by mnowaczewski

I am currently going to school with DeVry 100% online because I cannot move away to campus of a known school right now (ISU, IIT etc)

Thanks.


Because this is a game development site I am assuming you are looking to do something in this area. You live in a major metropolitan area. Is there any reason you can not commute to another college (not ISU or IIT)? Some people on these forums are against community colleges, but in my opinion it is just as good for your lower division credits as that of any state university.

DeVry is a trade school. Their commercials specificaly state 'credits may not transfer'. If you are serious about a masters degree in any field it would be in your best interest to withdraw from DeVry and start attending a CC or state university. The only college I can think of that may accept you into a masters program is DigiPen. And even then your chances are slim.

Just my opinion.


btw... Many community colleges have direct transfer articulated programs to good universities. My local CC transfers to UC-Davis. A class mate of mine (back when) transferred to UC Berkley.

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I'm currently considering attending Devry for their Game and Simulation Programming course. The main selling point on Devry for me is their online learning option. I live 45 minutes away from Houston and work Monday - Friday, 7am to 6pm. Commuting to a college is not an option for me. I have to work as many hours as I can, to support my wife and son.

I can see Telastyn's point of view, and it does open my eyes a bit to what I may be facing. Personally, I plan on learning as much as I can at Devry, while doing some self teaching through any books I may pick up. I hope to make a few little programs or games before I even try applying for a job anywhere, once I've finished Devry. What I'm trying to say is, after reading this thread I will still attend Devry but will seek to learn more than just what they teach me, and hopefully try to provide unique examples of what I'm capable of when I go job hunting. I won't be relying 100% on my Devry certification. Hopefully this will mean something to my future employers.

Oh, and I personally don't understand why anyone would pay to go to school, then waste their money by cheating via google or whatever. Thats just stupid, you'd only be cheating yourself.

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I think many of the people who are quick to dismiss what they consider "joke" schools don't truly appreciate how hard it can be for some people to gain access to a more "reputable" education. Especially adults attempting to expand into a new career.

Many, I suspect, also lack perspective when it comes to understanding how lucky they may have been to have had the opportunities which got them where they are.


I would say as long as you are learning valuable knowledge, and can display your ability to use that knowledge, then it doesn't really matter where you learned it.

Get what education you have available to you, and use it to build a valuable and impressive portfolio. In the long run, that's going to be more valuable than the name of the school on your degree.

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I think many of the people who are quick to dismiss what they consider "joke" schools don't truly appreciate how hard it can be for some people to gain access to a more "reputable" education. Especially adults attempting to expand into a new career.


Sure, continuing education for adults is not ideal.

But seriously, it's not that hard to find one. It's not as though most (US) community colleges won't take anyone and everyone; or that they don't have evening or online classes. I've lived on the east coast, the west coast and the midwest now. ~20 minutes outside a major city each time and there was 3+ colleges who'd take most anyone, with night classes, with CS programs.

They're not particularly good mind you, but they're not for profit and they're not trade schools. You'll still run into problems finding the time and excess money to attend while juggling other adult responsibilities... All the more reason to get as good a general education as you can get (via admissions, not price) in the first place.

Quote:

I would say as long as you are learning valuable knowledge, and can display your ability to use that knowledge, then it doesn't really matter where you learned it.


Unfortunately, as a new graduate the most direct way to display (or hint at least) at that ability is your school. A cool tech demo doesn't help nearly as often in the business world. Once you have your degree (even in something other than CS) it becomes a lot less important where/how you learned. (imo) Self study becomes a lot more viable to adults shifting careers. Cheaper with more flexibility and to your own pace.

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I've become rather jaded with supposedly "reputable" schools.

I've taken courses at a number of different schools.

And I'd have to say, some of the best instructors I've seen were at community colleges, while some of the worst were at a major research university.


In my experience, at a major research university it is not at all uncommon to end up with instructors who could really care less about your education. They are there for their research, and the only reason they are teaching classes is because the University requires them to.

So yeah, you may get one of the brightest minds in the field instructing you, but what good is it really when they're just phoning it in?


Additionally, at a large state university, specifically in a rapidly changing field such as computer science, you often end up with programs which lag far behind the times because the entire system is bogged down in needless bureaucracy.
I've sat though classes devoted to material which was more than a decade past irrelevant. I've wasted considerable hours learning completely outdated development environments which I will never encounter again. I've spent time learning about system structures which aren't even used anymore just because the university's CS program advances at a phenomenally depressing pace.

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Original post by brent_w
Additionally, at a large state university, specifically in a rapidly changing field such as computer science, you often end up with programs which lag far behind the times because the entire system is bogged down in needless bureaucracy.
I've sat though classes devoted to material which was more than a decade past irrelevant. I've wasted considerable hours learning completely outdated development environments which I will never encounter again. I've spent time learning about system structures which aren't even used anymore just because the university's CS program advances at a phenomenally depressing pace.
This problem isn't specific to large state universities - I have architecture, operating systems and graphics courses rooted solidly in the mid-80's. However, it does highlight an important fact: you should be learning techniques, not languages or APIs. It really doesn't matter that OpenGL is taught at version 1.1, as long as you learn the theory and mathematics behind everything - once you can generate a projection matrix by hand, that applies to any 3D API you will ever use. The same goes for all the other topics - sure, MIPS was the newest architecture we covered (apart from a theoretical discussion on multi-processing), but the basic concepts behind CPU design haven't changed all that much since then.

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I've interviewed many developers, and here's what I look for:

- Does he/she know about my company? Shows a certain interest and courtesy.

- Does he/she look presentable? Yes, it does matter to me. No, I'm not picky that your shirt didn't match your tie. But, some minimum must be maintained. Shows respect for others. Our environment is causal, but I don't appreciate you coming in swim trunks or reeking of yesterday's bar night to the interview no matter how "guru" you may be.

- Can he/she answer lots of technical questions relevant to applied position? I hate smug interviewers, or people who recommend the approach, who ask asinine, pedantic questions that are unsolvable in a decent amount of time.

- Can he/she answer lots of questions about what they want to be in 1 year, three years, 10? Basically, I want to see your career plan because you may not fit into this company because you are overshooting or undershooting what the company needs. It will turn out bad for me and you.

- Did the person show basic ability to relate personally and uncontroversially? Developers don't live in a vacuum. They sometimes have to talk to other developers, or, heaven forbid, real users. It helps if they don't suddenly turn into a complete HR fiasco on me. I don't need to babysit an arrogant or insecure prick(ette).

What kinda matters:

- Work history: This is where I go to decide if you get a first screening call. I once had a guy apply for a mid-level developer job who's previous job was scooping ice cream in a corner shop for the last five years. Yes, you can lie here, but the screening should ferret that out.

What doesn't matter:

- Education. Sure, we all put it on our resumes. But, your education is your responsibility. If I expect you to come in and tell me how to pseudo-code a red-black tree, discuss a hash table or know about mutexes, I don't care if you learned that at CMU or DeVry. Now, your concern should be: am I going to learn what I need to learn to answer relevant core question by going to school X?

- Employment history: It's all a big lie anyways. Many times, for a large company, I can't confirm you worked there or not for privacy reasons. Even if you put a contact, I will first suspect he's not really the CIO - he's your buddy in the next cube who's in on your gig. And, you employer may have been "happy" with you, but if you can't code up that red-black tree, well, see ya at McDonald's and, yes, I will have fries with that...

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Original post by swiftcoder
Quote:
Original post by brent_w
Additionally, at a large state university, specifically in a rapidly changing field such as computer science, you often end up with programs which lag far behind the times because the entire system is bogged down in needless bureaucracy.
I've sat though classes devoted to material which was more than a decade past irrelevant. I've wasted considerable hours learning completely outdated development environments which I will never encounter again. I've spent time learning about system structures which aren't even used anymore just because the university's CS program advances at a phenomenally depressing pace.
This problem isn't specific to large state universities - I have architecture, operating systems and graphics courses rooted solidly in the mid-80's. However, it does highlight an important fact: you should be learning techniques, not languages or APIs. It really doesn't matter that OpenGL is taught at version 1.1, as long as you learn the theory and mathematics behind everything - once you can generate a projection matrix by hand, that applies to any 3D API you will ever use. The same goes for all the other topics - sure, MIPS was the newest architecture we covered (apart from a theoretical discussion on multi-processing), but the basic concepts behind CPU design haven't changed all that much since then.
That's true in many regards.

But I can't help but think about how much more I could have gained from my education if I had been learning those concepts in a relevant environment.

The concepts are important, but they are really only taking you halfway.
To go out and get a job you still need relevant skills and familiarity with modern software.

And these courses teaching concepts in an outdated setting leave far too many students stranded out of school, needing to teach themselves all the "hands on" bits which were left out of their education.


You take a community college grad, adept in the IDE, libraries, and other software that your company uses.
And compare him to a 4 year grad who knows theory and concept out his ass, but has no functional experience with the libraries and software you use because he spent the last 4 years of schooling working primarily with an outdated version of Emacs, the gcc, and a unix prompt.

Which is a smart employer going to hire?
Probably the guy who is both cheaper to payroll and doesn't require months of additional training to get up to speed in your operation.

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I was afraid of that! To be honest, I'm not really happy with the quality of instruction that I have been getting. It seems to me that the instructors are more interested in their careers, and get to the classroom whenever they have some spare time.

That and the course work is WAY to easy. The red flag went up when I called around to start planning an approach to getting my masters. All the schools said that DeVry students normally have to take more courses because it's a technical school (now I see how the term code monkey came to be). I mean it's really not all that bad if you go through the extra effort of googling/reading up on stuff outside the course itself...But if employers do not like the school, you do not get rewarded for that extra effort other than being a good programmer. Or you could go to a better school and be that same good programmer but without the (-) points from a bad school reputation.

DeVry did a very good job covering up all of the information you guys brought to my attention. The thing is I cannot really move away to a school, so my options are limited to the local schools. I'm thinking between DePaul, ISU or IIT. I rather not have to commute to Chicago, but it looks like I might not have a choice. Any employers care to share their experience with DePaul, ISU or IIT?

I really appreciate everyone's input because it's helping me put together a road map to my career. This is all a career change for me as I was a pilot for an aerial mapping company and decided the industry is not going to be able to pay pilots the way it used to be before 9/11. That and the industry is never going to rebound (at least not anytime soon, and I rather not wait till I'm 50 before it gets back to normal). This leads me to my next concern...Outsourcing and job security as a game programmer(and programmers in general, not necessarily games only) and software engineer?

Thanks again.

-Matt

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Unless you're hiring for a 3-6 month contract (and in that case you're not hiring fresh graduates), you're hiring the theorist every time. Most companies already have a 2-4 month spin up time on developers; getting them used to the industry specific terms and practices, getting them used to the internal codebase and tools, having them pickup some language they've not used before.

And that's for the nice simple companies that are focused on one product/environment. I deal pretty much daily with 4 development environments, two separate bug tracking systems, and two source control systems.

If that theorist spends an extra month or two learning all the tools rather than just some, it's not a big deal business wise. They're going to pay for that time and then some with their added productivity and flexibility for the rest of their employment. It's always going to take less time (and money) for a programmer with theory to learn a tool than it is a programmer with a tool to learn theory. A tool you can learn through use; theory not so much.

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Original post by stonemetal
Quote:
Original post by LostSnow25
Sadly for me too no University in Texas has a decree for Game making.


I could have sworn SMU was in Texas and had a masters program for just such a thing.

Yeah, the Guildhall has nothing to do with game development whatsoever...

I think alphadogg summed up my opinions on this matter. Seriously, I don't give a rat's butt about what school someone went to. A person's portfolio and their ability to solve problems on the spot is going to get someone hired, not their school.

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Original post by Telastyn
Unless you're hiring for a 3-6 month contract (and in that case you're not hiring fresh graduates), you're hiring the theorist every time. Most companies already have a 2-4 month spin up time on developers; getting them used to the industry specific terms and practices, getting them used to the internal codebase and tools, having them pickup some language they've not used before.

And that's for the nice simple companies that are focused on one product/environment. I deal pretty much daily with 4 development environments, two separate bug tracking systems, and two source control systems.

If that theorist spends an extra month or two learning all the tools rather than just some, it's not a big deal business wise. They're going to pay for that time and then some with their added productivity and flexibility for the rest of their employment. It's always going to take less time (and money) for a programmer with theory to learn a tool than it is a programmer with a tool to learn theory. A tool you can learn through use; theory not so much.
You are absolutely correct on that.

But, with a few exceptions, 90% of the workload is still going to rely on tool use ... theory doesn't come into play all that often.

Especially with the industry moving more and more into licensed engines and middleware solutions, we're leaving many of the theory bits to specialists.

Throw in a worsening economy, and I won't be surprised to see many 4year students loosing jobs out of school to students of 2 year schools and technical colleges who are going to cost less to payroll.


edit:
But it can't be stressed enough.
Regardless of which school you attend. Your most important asset is going to always be a strong portfolio of work you can show to employers.

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Wow after reading the responses I can easily say some people here really talk complete nonsense. I don't mean to sound offending but you guys have really wrong ideas about DeVry. I know they have a bad rep and trust me I was more hesitant then anyone to sign up, but when it became my only option and I did, I was completely impressed with the school. It really is a lot better then people have described.

Seriously, before you all hate DeVry you really actually need to see what it has to offer. You can call me wrong all you want but I have learned way more in my one year at DeVry then I did at my 2 years at Penn State. Actually, I learned more in 2 semesters at DeVry then I did at 2 years of Penn State, and at PSU I was taking math and computer courses, not just gen eds.

I hate to see people on this forum getting turned away from the idea of online school when it may be their only option for a better education. I will admit, it is NOT for everyone. If you are not self motivated and dedicated to study you will waste your money, but for the rest of us its a great opportunity.

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So what did you actually learn? I mean you've never actually said what classes were taken, why one was better than the other.

Looking at the class schedule for PSU CS, the first two semesters should've been:

3 calc courses
freshman algorithms and data structures (2 semesters)
a compeng logic and circuits course
a web-centric dev course
standard physics courses (2 semesters)
2 semesters of elective natural sciences
and
gen ed stuff. (2-3 writing/reading, 1-2 lib-arts electives)

which except for the webdev course is pretty standard for a 4 year CS program. The third and fourth years then get into mostly CS courses (with some statistics and discrete mathmatics required)


DeVry has their gamedev degree and a comp eng degree and a few others that might be applicable. And they seem distinctly different. The Gamedev degree requires no calculus for example... (!!!) The comp eng degree requires 2 semesters' worth


So what did you learn at DeVry that PSU neglected to teach you?

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