Quote:Original post by ManaStone
It would be great if schools taught comparative government and political philosophy. They could also do more to teach logic and critical thinking and have semester long courses just on propaganda.

Educate the sheep!?

Quote:Original post by stimarco

Quote:Original post by LessBread
Referring to such a thing as a "sabbath" makes me feel like vomiting.

What a strange reaction.

Quote:Source: Online Etymology Dictionary
Sabbath
O.E. sabat "Saturday," observed by the Jews as a day of rest, from L. sabbatum, from Gk. sabbaton, from Heb. shabbath, prop. "day of rest," from shabath "he rested." The Babylonians regarded seventh days as unlucky, and avoided certain activities then; the Jewish observance may have begun as a similar custom. From the seventh day of the week, it began to be applied c.1410 to the first day (Sunday), a change completed during the Reformation. The original meaning is preserved in Sp. Sabado, It. Sabbato, and other languages' names for "Saturday." Hung. szombat, Rus. simbata, Fr. samedi, Ger. Samstag "Saturday" are from V.L. sambatum, from Gk. *sambaton, a vulgar nasalized variant of sabbaton.

(My correction: it's "sabato" in Italian, not "sabbato".)

Even more strange is that you're perfectly fine with "holiday". Why is a word that is clearly a compound of "Holy" + "Day" more acceptable to you than "sabbath"?

Don't be embarrassed of our past: embrace it. Learn from it, or you will be doomed to repeat it.

In my mind the word sabbath retains greater religious resonance than does the word holiday. Put another way, the word holiday has become secularized whereas the word sabbath hasn't. From this, in conjunction with my American predilection for maintaining a separation between church and state, the thought of referring to a secular political gathering as a sabbath evokes ill thoughts in me. It might look to you that in not embracing our past I'm in danger of repeating it's failures, but in fact I am aware of our past and the ills that follow from joining church and state and thus I seek to avoid repeating that mistake.

The word holiday has been used to modify other secular days off. From it's simple use as a stand in for the word "vacation", to it's more elaborate use regarding "Bank Holiday" as well as "Winter Holiday" and "Spring Holiday". Of the 10 official public holidays in the United States, only Christmas has religious origins.

To continue elaborating on the secularization of the word holiday, in the last few years conservatives in the United States have raised alarms over the increased use of the salutation "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" during the Christmas/Hanukkah season, to the point where they have deemed the use of the salutation "Happy Holidays" as emblematic of a "War on Christmas". As bizarre as this story might sound it's true. For elaborations and debunkings of this manufactured controversy, see What 'War on Christmas'?, A fictional 'war on Christmas', War on Christmas.


@RedDrake, it sounds like you're not keen on the concept of "one person, one vote". What if we relate that back to taxes, such that your score translates into the percentage of taxes that you otherwise would have to pay. Only score 10%, only pay 10% of the taxes that you otherwise would have had to pay.

Quote:Original post by LessBread
In my mind the word sabbath retains greater religious resonance than does the word holiday. Put another way, the word holiday has become secularized whereas the word sabbath hasn't.

This might be a British English / US English thing. "Holiday" has the word "holy" in it and most historic holidays in the UK have (or had) some religious foundation. The resonance may have faded over here, but it hasn't disappeared entirely and it isn't likely to.

I'm also a writer and the internet makes it crystal clear that not everyone is an expert in my field; my assumption was that the OP was either of Jewish extraction, or wasn't an expert English speaker, as the use of the term "sabbath" is rare in colloquial English over here. Even those who follow one of the Christian sects will usually refer to the day of the week; some sects do their deity-bothering on Saturday, not Sunday. (Honestly, the guy gets one day off a week and people just will not leave him in peace! No wonder he gets so tetchy.)

Also, I'm not sure if it's the case in the US, but it's not unusual to hear the term "sabbatical" used in a secular sense. ("Vacation" has different meanings in British English -- it's often used in legalese to mean "released" or "freed", for example. It's the same root as "vacant". It was never used here as a synonym for "holiday" until relatively recently, although the US usage is appearing in colloquial speech.)

Quote:From this, in conjunction with my American predilection for maintaining a separation between church and state, the thought of referring to a secular political gathering as a sabbath evokes ill thoughts in me. It might look to you that in not embracing our past I'm in danger of repeating it's failures, but in fact I am aware of our past and the ills that follow from joining church and state and thus I seek to avoid repeating that mistake.

If the US is supposed to be separating Church from State, it's doing a piss-poor job of it. We just treat 'em as entertainment and sources of medieval tourist attractions. (Hell, even the Italians don't give a shit what the Pope says any more. Their birth rate is pretty damned low considering what the head of the only religion on Earth to own its own country thinks about prophylactics.)

For a nation that professes to be secular, you do a great job of worshipping the Holy US Constitution and the Sacred Bill of Rights. Both are just words written by fallible human hands on bits of paper. It could be argued that the US is actually witnessing the birth of its own, home-grown religion. Which is the best kind: you can have your own tourist-gouging gift shops! (And think of the movie rights! "The Other Greatest Story Ever Told", starring Abraham Lincoln as Moses! I wonder if Mel Gibson would be up for "The Passion of The Bush"?)

Quote:The word holiday has been used to modify other secular days off. From it's simple use as a stand in for the word "vacation", to it's more elaborate use regarding "Bank Holiday" as well as "Winter Holiday" and "Spring Holiday". Of the 10 official public holidays in the United States, only Christmas has religious origins.

I beg to differ:

"Halloween" is an ancient religious festival recycled a few times. It has been through three evolutionary phases:

1. "Samhain" -- The original (Celtic) harvest celebration. This had connotations of death and rebirth (as did most such celebrations).


2. "All Hallows Day" -- the Christian version. This is now viewed as a holiday on the 1st of November, but originally, the Christian 'day' began at sunset. This led to the concept of overnight vigils, (a tradition still common in some Roman Catholic cultures) and remembered by the name "All Hallows Even[ing]"...


3. ... which became "Halloween" -- essentially a return to the original Celtic festival, thanks mainly to Irish immigrants to the US, who brought their original Samhain festival traditions with them.

"St. Patrick's Day" -- probably best renamed "St. Guinness Day", judging by the way it's celebrated these days -- is also clearly a religious festival. (It's not officially a holiday in the US, but it does a good impression of one. Either that or there are rather more people of Irish extraction in the US than seems entirely feasible.)

"Thanksgiving" is also clearly of religious origin. (Who, exactly, did you think you were giving thanks to? This is arguably the US' home-grown cover version of the original Celtic "Samhain" harvest celebrations.)

The 4th of July is the reason I wrote my crack about the US siring its own religion above. I've seen national celebrations in Old World countries, but I have never seen a society idolise its own nation in quite the same way as the US. Flag-saluting in the armed forces I can understand, but in schools? This activity alone places the nation itself on a high pedestal and probably causes far more problems than it solves. It leads to an ingrained sense of blind worship of the State, which isn't healthy. States are run by people and people are fallible. I can't help feeling this is a dangerous path to tread.

(And don't get me started on the whole "In God We Trust" on banknotes thing. The US government has tried to separate itself from its religious legacy, but it has failed. The nation was originally founded primarily by the religious fruitcakes we Old Worlders didn't want. This was bound to have a profound effect on the subsequent socio-cultural make-up of the country and especially on its traditions. At the moment, I can't help feeling that the US is actually turning the nation itself into its own Church. Good luck separating Church from State when the two have become one and the same.)


Then again, I'm English and therefore a natural cynic.

Quote:Original post by stimarco

Quote:Original post by LessBread
In my mind the word sabbath retains greater religious resonance than does the word holiday. Put another way, the word holiday has become secularized whereas the word sabbath hasn't.

This might be a British English / US English thing. "Holiday" has the word "holy" in it and most historic holidays in the UK have (or had) some religious foundation. The resonance may have faded over here, but it hasn't disappeared entirely and it isn't likely to.

I'm also a writer and the internet makes it crystal clear that not everyone is an expert in my field; my assumption was that the OP was either of Jewish extraction, or wasn't an expert English speaker, as the use of the term "sabbath" is rare in colloquial English over here. Even those who follow one of the Christian sects will usually refer to the day of the week; some sects do their deity-bothering on Saturday, not Sunday. (Honestly, the guy gets one day off a week and people just will not leave him in peace! No wonder he gets so tetchy.)

Also, I'm not sure if it's the case in the US, but it's not unusual to hear the term "sabbatical" used in a secular sense. ("Vacation" has different meanings in British English -- it's often used in legalese to mean "released" or "freed", for example. It's the same root as "vacant". It was never used here as a synonym for "holiday" until relatively recently, although the US usage is appearing in colloquial speech.)

Whatever the reasons behind the OP's word choice, your query gave me the opportunity to explain my distaste for it. In my experience the word "sabbatical" is used in academic contexts almost exclusively. That's likely a hold over from the religious origins of the university. Vacation is an American colloquialism. It usually suggests weeks off from work rather than a day or two. Holiday used in that sense is more British.

Quote:Original post by stimarco

Quote:From this, in conjunction with my American predilection for maintaining a separation between church and state, the thought of referring to a secular political gathering as a sabbath evokes ill thoughts in me. It might look to you that in not embracing our past I'm in danger of repeating it's failures, but in fact I am aware of our past and the ills that follow from joining church and state and thus I seek to avoid repeating that mistake.

If the US is supposed to be separating Church from State, it's doing a piss-poor job of it. We just treat 'em as entertainment and sources of medieval tourist attractions. (Hell, even the Italians don't give a shit what the Pope says any more. Their birth rate is pretty damned low considering what the head of the only religion on Earth to own its own country thinks about prophylactics.)

There are political factions here that seek to bring an end between the separation of church and state. They've gained greater prominence in the last twenty years or so. The links about the supposed "War on Christmas" provide evidence of their growing strength. Fortunately, the political salience of cultural wedge issues is on the decline.

Quote:Original post by stimarco
For a nation that professes to be secular, you do a great job of worshipping the Holy US Constitution and the Sacred Bill of Rights. Both are just words written by fallible human hands on bits of paper. It could be argued that the US is actually witnessing the birth of its own, home-grown religion. Which is the best kind: you can have your own tourist-gouging gift shops! (And think of the movie rights! "The Other Greatest Story Ever Told", starring Abraham Lincoln as Moses! I wonder if Mel Gibson would be up for "The Passion of The Bush"?)

It's been termed "political religion" or "secular religion" but it's a part of American exceptionalism. That said, serious minded people recognize those documents for what they are - legal documents. They are indeed fallible, but they are also what holds together the vast and diverse United States. We have our movies of Lincoln (Young Mr. Lincoln) as well as of several other Presidents, including W..

Quote:Original post by stimarco

Quote:The word holiday has been used to modify other secular days off. From it's simple use as a stand in for the word "vacation", to it's more elaborate use regarding "Bank Holiday" as well as "Winter Holiday" and "Spring Holiday". Of the 10 official public holidays in the United States, only Christmas has religious origins.

I beg to differ:

"Halloween" is an ancient religious festival recycled a few times. It has been through three evolutionary phases:

1. "Samhain" -- The original (Celtic) harvest celebration. This had connotations of death and rebirth (as did most such celebrations).


2. "All Hallows Day" -- the Christian version. This is now viewed as a holiday on the 1st of November, but originally, the Christian 'day' began at sunset. This led to the concept of overnight vigils, (a tradition still common in some Roman Catholic cultures) and remembered by the name "All Hallows Even[ing]"...


3. ... which became "Halloween" -- essentially a return to the original Celtic festival, thanks mainly to Irish immigrants to the US, who brought their original Samhain festival traditions with them.

"St. Patrick's Day" -- probably best renamed "St. Guinness Day", judging by the way it's celebrated these days -- is also clearly a religious festival. (It's not officially a holiday in the US, but it does a good impression of one. Either that or there are rather more people of Irish extraction in the US than seems entirely feasible.)

Those are not official holidays. People don't get the day off for Halloween or St. Patrick's Day or Cinco de Mayo either. They do get the day off for public holidays. Guinness on St. Patrick's day is a relatively new development. In years past it was simply Budweiser with green dye added.

Quote:Original post by stimarco
"Thanksgiving" is also clearly of religious origin. (Who, exactly, did you think you were giving thanks to? This is arguably the US' home-grown cover version of the original Celtic "Samhain" harvest celebrations.)

Not really. I suppose I could be flip and say that the Pilgrims were showing their thanks to the Indians that saved them from starvation but that would only be partly true. They were thanking God too, but that didn't cement the holiday as a religious one. Maybe super hard core religious types attend services on Thanksgiving, but they would be the rare exception.

Quote:Original post by stimarco
The 4th of July is the reason I wrote my crack about the US siring its own religion above. I've seen national celebrations in Old World countries, but I have never seen a society idolise its own nation in quite the same way as the US. Flag-saluting in the armed forces I can understand, but in schools? This activity alone places the nation itself on a high pedestal and probably causes far more problems than it solves. It leads to an ingrained sense of blind worship of the State, which isn't healthy. States are run by people and people are fallible. I can't help feeling this is a dangerous path to tread.

Would you make fun of Bastille Day too? Most schools in the USA let out before July 4. The militarism of the holiday follows from the revolutionary origins of the USA. The flag salutes and pledge of allegiance came about as methods for unifying people from diverse ethnic backgrounds. It allows Irish, English and French to set aside their old world differences to embrace their newly adopted nation. Maybe not so much with the adults, but with their children, definitely. And for that matter, Polish and German and Russian and Italian too. Perhaps we wouldn't have needed that bit of pomp if people in the old world got along with each other better. That said, practices that begin with the best of intentions can become atrophied, detached from their original purposes and subsequently devolve into blind worship.

Quote:Original post by stimarco
(And don't get me started on the whole "In God We Trust" on banknotes thing. The US government has tried to separate itself from its religious legacy, but it has failed. The nation was originally founded primarily by the religious fruitcakes we Old Worlders didn't want. This was bound to have a profound effect on the subsequent socio-cultural make-up of the country and especially on its traditions. At the moment, I can't help feeling that the US is actually turning the nation itself into its own Church. Good luck separating Church from State when the two have become one and the same.)

Then again, I'm English and therefore a natural cynic.

"In God We Trust" is a relic from the Civil War, iirc. As for the founding of the United States, the fact is that greedy British capitalists beat the religious fruitcakes here by 20 years. Jamestown, Virginia 1609. Look it up.

Now, I have to get back to watching the annual unfolding of the true American religion, baseball. [grin]