Hello. I'm new and shiny here, so bear with me. I found this forum in an attempt to find a general community of game designers that I could ask questions about game design. You guys might be the ticket, but there's a problem. See, I'm more of a content producer than a programmer. I've been designing experiences in Second Life for 5+ years, and am now slowly learning polygon modelling in Maya. I have tried learning programming, ANY programming, but the best I can usually manage is the weak understanding of variables and the occasional ability to change them. in short, I'm a mediocre artist and a rotten engineer. Anyways, because I can never get a control of my creative output, lately I've been really itching to start designing an MMO (oh god, here we go again). A fantasy MMO (oh gods, where's the nearest window). With dynamic world-editing properties (quick, hit him with a rock before he continues). In my mind's eye I want a game with the polish of WoW with the dynamic world-building of Wurm Online... For those of you unfamiliar with Wurm, it's a small indie MMO that lacks any sort of plot whatsoever; it makes up for it by letting the players change the world as they play. Trees can be cut. Moats can be dug. Towns can be planned. Buildings can be designed. This in a world that's your standard MMO trappings. The problem with Wurm is that the polish is... something to be desired. It also runs in Java, which limits it somewhat it seems (the graphics are gorgeous, but their game design choices of favoring grinding over anything else is maddening). So in short, huge ambition, no skill. My question is thus... does there exist an MMO-friendly engine that allows more or less plug-and-play of your basic MMO trappings (quest giving, inventories, levelling up, simple combat), that is also geared more towards a designer than a programmer? Or should I suck it up and spend the next decade learning a language? I'm looking at the problem at the wrong way, I guess; I have the creative gumption but not the technical one, which seems to be the opposite issue many people have. Any tips?

I don't have a complete answer, but you could check out:

http://www.gamedevelopertools.com

They have a listing of all sorts of game engines.

You might find Neverwinter Nights 2 interesting.

I think it really depends on how much you want the game to resemble your idea. Even with a game engine, you will have to do a large amount of coding. I think that it is best to learn a language. C++ is really the only way to get the polish that you have on WoW, and most game engines are written in it.

I think the best way to learn is to go down to the library or bookstore and buy a book on c++, read that, and then start designing games. If you are too lazy to go find one to read, here is one : http://www.mindview.net/Books/TICPP/ThinkingInCPP2e.html

To start designing games once you have finished that, start with a text based rpg game, a great project outline is here: http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=409907

Once you do that, learn an API such as DirectX(highly recommended) or OpenGL. You could also learn a graphics engine such as ogre.

Once you do that you should have enough knowledge to throw a simple 3d rpg, and it is easy from there. Not that MMO is an easy project...(BTW a great book for you to learn how to program that is http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1931841098/gamedev
a little outdated but still relevant)

You could use a game engine, but I strongly don't recommend it if you do not know a programming language.

Alternatively you could hire or find someone to help you do the programming part. I hope this helps.

~schmatz

Actually I'm quite surprised there hasn't been a generic 3d engine released that has a lot of the traditional MMO trappings as standard plugins. My only major design change is the dynamic destruction/creation of the game-world by players. Well, that and no level limit, but that's another thing entirely.


C++ makes me shudder.... :D

Thanks for responding.

Quote:Original post by bulletthebluesky
I think it really depends on how much you want the game to resemble your idea. Even with a game engine, you will have to do a large amount of coding. I think that it is best to learn a language. C++ is really the only way to get the polish that you have on WoW, and most game engines are written in it.

But a language would basically require a ground-up rewrite of, well, everything? It sounds obscenely daunting. Plus, there's the whole "re-invent the wheel a billion times" thing that makes me cringe. How many combat engines do there really need to be?

Quote:
I think the best way to learn is to go down to the library or bookstore and buy a book on c++, read that, and then start designing games. If you are too lazy to go find one to read, here is one : http://www.mindview.net/Books/TICPP/ThinkingInCPP2e.html

Believe me, I've tried on multiple occasions. I'll do fine until I get tripped up with syntax or logic coding or something and then I scream bloody murder and give up. :)

Quote:
To start designing games once you have finished that, start with a text based rpg game, a great project outline is here: http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=409907

Hmm, a possibility there.

Quote:
Once you do that, learn an API such as DirectX(highly recommended) or OpenGL. You could also learn a graphics engine such as ogre.

Yeah I kind of assumed DirectX as a pre-requisite, but again I thought there would have been a toolkit already for designers.

Quote:
Once you do that you should have enough knowledge to throw a simple 3d rpg, and it is easy from there. Not that MMO is an easy project...(BTW a great book for you to learn how to program that is http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1931841098/gamedev
a little outdated but still relevant)

Thanks... yeah, I know, shoot big or go home, right? It's not like there's been maybe 3 or 4 successfull MMOs out of 300 or anything... :D

Quote:
You could use a game engine, but I strongly don't recommend it if you do not know a programming language.

This throws me off... can you elaborate? I thought a game engine was designed to make it easier to code/script/design, not harder.

Quote:In my mind's eye I want a game with the polish of WoW with the dynamic world-building of Wurm Online...

Quote:My question is thus... does there exist an MMO-friendly engine that allows more or less plug-and-play of your basic MMO trappings (quest giving, inventories, levelling up, simple combat), that is also geared more towards a designer than a programmer? Or should I suck it up and spend the next decade learning a language?

How are you going to achieve your MMO-creation goals?

Multiple choice:

A. Wait until someone designs a miracle engine, that lets you turn ideas into code.

B. Learn to program, and decide a language. Since you're more of an artist, you might want to look in the RAD languages, like VB and C#. These can cut development time by around 60%. Then realize, with only one person, you'll have to throw half your design out the window.

C. Get a high paying job, save money, and hire you a development team. You'll need at least: Programmers, musicians, artists.

D. Forget about making a MMO. (*Gasp*)

Quote:Original post by RebNyx
B. Learn to program, and decide a language. Since you're more of an artist, you might want to look in the RAD languages, like VB and C#. These can cut development time by around 60%. Then realize, with only one person, you'll have to throw half your design out the window.

Well obviously this isn't going to spring forthwith from my head fully formed. I was talking more along the lines of a finished product.

Initially the first goal would be to have deformable terrain and some very limited character interactions. Then maybe flora planting/removing. And then maybe some basic monsters to whack a sword at. and so on.

While I sound like a crazy teenager idealist, I have in fact worked on many a corporate project... it was just in Second Life, which is about as sheltered as you can get from programming requirements or optimization issues.

So I fully realize this is a years-long project, developed as a small hobby. If it gets any bigger than that I'd be surprised, honestly. :)

Quote:
C. Get a high paying job, save money, and hire you a development team. You'll need at least: Programmers, musicians, artists.

It's been my experience that the only person you can rely on for a hobby project is yourself - everyone else produces nothing of consequence, because they don't share the same drive as you.

Quote:
D. Forget about making a MMO. (*Gasp*)

Nonsense! :P

Quote:Or should I suck it up and spend the next decade learning a language?

Suck it up and start learning. You've admitted yourself to be in the same position as essentially any beginner trying to make an MMO. You don't have programming knowledge. If there was some simple way to satisfy the beginner-I-want-to-make-an-MMO wanna-be, we would have told them already.

There isn't one.