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snorky

RPG Combat System Interactive Design

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[I'M CURRENTLY WORKING ON AN UPDATE AND WILL POST IT AS SOON AS IT IS DONE] [11.12.08 @ 4:48 CST] I'm trying to develop a combat system. It is for an RPG. I don't want it to be a simple system, but I don't want some crazy advanced system either. I want to design it from the ground up, stats and everything. I'm hoping others here are trying to do the same thing and we can bounce our ideas around. Check it out and anything I like I will add to this initial post. Thanks! REQUIRED STATISTICS The following are some statistics I want involved in the system. Keep in mind adding to these is also possible. Any statistics can be modified by a beneficial spell, item, or piece of equipment. BASIC STATS These stats are modified directly but affect some or all of the derived stats listed below. Agility (From equipment, spells, or items) Intelligence (From equipment, spells, or items) Spirit (From equipment, spells, or items) Stamina (From equipment, spells, or items) Strength (From equipment, spells, or items) Armor (From equipment, spells, or items) Hit Points (Stamina) Magic Points (Intelligence) MELEE/RANGED DERIVED STATS Attack Power (Strength, Agility) Critical Strike (Agility) Damage Penetration (Strength) Hit (Agility) SPELL DERIVED STATS Spell Critical Strike (Intelligence) Spell Penetration (Spirit) Spell Power (Intelligence, Spirit) Spell Hit (Spirit) DAMAGE MITIGATION DERIVED STATS Block (Strength) Damage Reduction (Strength) Parry (Strength, Agility) Spell Resist (Spirit) BONUS STATS Armor Bonus (From item or equipment) Damage Bonus (From item or equipment) Spell Healing Bonus (From item or equipment) Spell Damage Bonus (From item or equipment) RESISTANCES Air Resist (From item or equipment) Earth Resist (From item or equipment) Fire Resist (From item or equipment) Water Resist (From item or equipment) ADDITIONAL INFORMATION I haven’t worked on how any of these values are derived, but that’s what I’m working on next and I’d like to get some feedback. HIT AND DAMAGE FORMULAS Will be getting started on these soon. CREDITS AND THANKS Thank you for any help you can give. If you post anything that ends up in this post I’ll give you credit here. [Edited by - snorky on November 12, 2008 4:39:29 PM]

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Could you elaborate on what you mean by damage & spell penetration?

A couple opinions:

Armor isn't used. It seems like you were thinking of D&D's Armor Class, but for the derived stats you were thinking of some other system. In my opinion, Armor should be a major part of damage reduction (essentially a Defense stat, in terms of other games).

Block and Parry are pretty much the same thing, except when I think of block I think of a shield, and parry, a weapon. I would submit that Agility is the most important factor on both accounts, though strength is probably also needed in blocking. One could argue that strength is not a factor in parrying, or perhaps just a small one.

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lmelior,

Thanks for your quick reply!

What I meant by spell penetration is:
The ability for the spell to reduce a target's resistance. For example:
My fire resist is 50% against you and lets say you cast a fireball at me and you have a spell penetration of 4%. My resist chance against you is now 46%.

As for damage penetration:
The ability for an attack to ignore armor. Let's say I have 2000 armor and you attack me but you have 250 penetration. Instead of doing damage against my armor of 2000 you'd roll damage against 1750 armor.

Hopefully that clears that up?

I think I agree with you on the armor. Although my initial intent was the main way to build armor is to say put on a breastplate that will give you say 200 armor. The stat in and of itself was meant to decrease damage...I just stuck it up there because it really isn't a derived stat (at least in my mind.)

I like your idea about block and parry. It makes more sense to think of it that way especially thinking ahead to implementing it. The way the stats affect it is a little confusing to me the way you stated them. Perhaps you can give an example when you have time?

NOTE: I was trying to balance the stats at the same time for example strength would affect 2 or 3 items and so would every other stat. I don't want 1 stat to affect 4 things while 1 stat only affects 1...I just see that causing problems down the road.

Thanks lmelior!

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Although there seems to be a lot of strategic growth here, it seems to me that the game relies too heavily on a stat system which, just like any other, can be abused relentlessly.

I'd simplify it, compound some stats under different terms.
This way it's easier and quicker to check for exploitations.
And your manual won't be quite so thick either.

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Quote:
Original post by Cpt Mothballs
Although there seems to be a lot of strategic growth here, it seems to me that the game relies too heavily on a stat system which, just like any other, can be abused relentlessly.

I'd simplify it, compound some stats under different terms.
This way it's easier and quicker to check for exploitations.
And your manual won't be quite so thick either.


Cpt Mothballs,
I've actually been redoing it a lot and as soon as I get something resembling any structure whatsoever lol I'm going to repost it. I've taken some stats out and pretty much base everything off of 4 stats. However items can still increase and decrease stats.

Thanks for your reply! Hopefully I'll have something to post tonight or tomorrow.

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I would remove strength from block and parry. They are mostly reliant on your ability to move quickly to intercept an attack. Add in a stamina stat to replace strength if you want to reflect the 'strength' needed to continually block or parry.

Parry is done with a weapon and block is with a shield, also, as parry is a weapon move it is done such that it open the target for a counter attack. Its the difference between ducking behind your shield and absorbing a blow with it and knocking the attack to the side with your sword and the lunging in with your own attack.

About magic, I really hope you come up with something more interesting and more original than "earth, air, fire, and water" for your magic. If you deal with elements, make up words to represent them and don't make the visuals so obvious as to what they are. Or look beyond an element system. Its not bad in and of itself, but its been done too many times. If your world had its own culture, with strange names for towns and plants and animals then the elements could have strange names as well and not look specifically like anything the player might label as water or fire. In that way, even though its esentiall the same, it feels new. I would also go with 3, 5 or 6 elements, not 4. The interactions between 4 things tend to be polar where each have its opposite. You can do a rotating cycle with it, but thats not the common case. Three elements lends itself to a rotation of advantage, IE, paper scissors rock. Five elements can't be polar and so would rotate as well. Six could be polar, but would be easier to work with as two sets of 3.

About damage mitigation, it would be cool if you could actively parry spells, or maybe reflect them. What if there was a spell turning skill? Try not to think of magic in terms of FPS with fireballs. Its a fun aspect but it can be much more interesting than that. What could magic do beyond 36 flavours of nuke spells?

Overall, just dig a little deeper and try to think of what would be really cool.

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This might just be nit-pickity, and slightly off topic, but I agree that parry and stength do in fact work together. I spent a few years fencing, and even if you have the speed (agility) to get your blade into the correct position to parry, if you dont have the wrist strength to put into it, the attack will just break through anyways.

In actual fencing its quite key, balancing the speed and strength of attacks; its easy to flit the tip of an epee around when your not giving it tons of power, but when you do, the movements become much more deliberate and harder to feint out of or change the direction of.

For a game, Id have a str comparison between attackers str and the parriers str, but it would be much less of a factor then the agility, as it doesnt matter if the agility isnt there at all. Games where you can pump 100% agi and overpower stuff that way have always kind of irked me...

To me it would work as in interesting way to break symetry when two persons or a person an NPC, both agi based, face off. Say one has 50 agi and 10 str, while the other has 45 agi and 15 str. Instead of simply being a matter of who gets lucky with the equal crit chances, one person hits slightly harder and parries slightly more, while the other hits slightly softer but crits slightly more.

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I would like to comment on Strength not being integral to blocking and parrying. If you are lending a realistic feel to the game, this is entirely untrue.

If a person swings a weapon at you, be it a sword, mace, or fires a projectile at you, you must be strong enough to repel or absorb the attack. A strong whack on a shield with a heavy mace could potentially shatter the bones of the arm under it. The best way around this is to have more muscle mass, and thus more strength, supporting the shield.

As to parrying; let us say someone is swinging at you in a downward motion, and you raise your weapon to parry it aside. If you have the muscle mass of a 6 year old, while your opponent has the strength of a blacksmith, his weapon will pass through your guard with no problems. Chances are, your own sword (or whatever weapon you are holding) will probably hit you, to be followed very quickly by the enemies.

Of course, these points are only relevant depending on how realistic you want to make your game.

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Quote:
Original post by HunterCyprus93
If a person swings a weapon at you, be it a sword, mace, or fires a projectile at you, you must be strong enough to repel or absorb the attack..
However, if you are able to move quickly enough to catch their weapon at an angle, it can be deflected with very little strength - think of the circular parries in épée: it is more efficient to use your opponent's strength against him, and it increases the likelihood that he loses balance and provides an opening for a counter.

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Actually, when you get used to an opponant, and know that they are very fond of quick little circular parries without any balls, its easy to get a few point by the brute forcing your way through. The parry might change the angle of the blade, but unless you apply force its possible to just, move it back.

The the parry moves the attackers wrist slightly, and if the attack presses the attack, their wrist goes back to where it was, and move the defenders wrist out of position. My fencing coach made us do a magnitude of wrist exercises to this end, in competition it would suck to have all the flair in the world and still lose because the other kid just overpowered you.

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Quote:
Original post by swiftcoder
Quote:
Original post by HunterCyprus93
If a person swings a weapon at you, be it a sword, mace, or fires a projectile at you, you must be strong enough to repel or absorb the attack..
However, if you are able to move quickly enough to catch their weapon at an angle, it can be deflected with very little strength - think of the circular parries in épée: it is more efficient to use your opponent's strength against him, and it increases the likelihood that he loses balance and provides an opening for a counter.


This may be true, but I was speaking of blocking with a shield in that first half of my post.

And also, the parrying that most people think sword-fighting consists of is fencing. Most sword-fights didn't last close to how long a fencing match would (with 2 decently skilled fighters who are unarmored). Generally this was because the weapons were slightly heavier (not sure how much over an epee or rapier) and you wanted to end your fights quickly. One or two parries and a counter and the fight was usually over. The parries were less graceful and involved a little more strength, and their primary purpose was to throw your opponent off balance, as well as to open them up for that counter.

Of course, every parry is going to be a little different depending on the angle of attack your opponent is coming at, as well as the angle you are moving to defend from. Some of these will use less strength as the angle is better for deflection, while more will use more strength. I will agree that most parries will benefit from agility and manual dexterity most. Without and semblance of strength though (in the real life sense), you won't be able to move the weapon into position for those parries.

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No update yet?

After considering it some more and reading the other responses, I've got a more complex view on it. I think parrying is deflecting the enemy's weapon with your weapon, and blocking is simply stopping the enemy's weapon in its tracks. So blocking could really be done with either a weapon or a shield. Shields can also deflect blows as well, however, but for some reason I don't think of that as parrying. Of course, I'm far from an expert on combat terminology, so this is all just conjecture on my part.

But, in any case, I think the most insightful post is this:
Quote:
Original post by HunterCyprus93
Of course, these points are only relevant depending on how realistic you want to make your game.
Or put another way, how simplistic you want to make your game. You could just lump the chances to block, parry, and dodge the enemy attack into a single evade stat. The more complex the interactions between base stats and derived stats, the more difficult it will become to balance the game.

On the other hand, as BreathOfLife mentioned, it's sort of irksome when you can just pump up one stat and become unstoppable. It must be a difficult task for game designers, because balanced characters are almost never better to have than completely lopsided, single-purpose characters. I'm not sure whether the way to do this is to make the derived stats depend on several of the base stats or not. For example, the more intelligent fighter in a duel might be better able to anticipate their opponents attacks and evade them, and a more spirited fighter might have higher damage because their bodies generate more adrenaline in battle.

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If you are attempting to keep from getting superior characters through single stat abuse, you can always drop realism a little. If I were designing a system that takes into account parrying and/or blocking, I would assign a different stat to either of them. Some of these sub-stats would be governed by multiple main stats, but for the above dropping of realism, you can narrow them down to one for each type of defensive maneuver you would like to have.

Example:
Blocking = Absorbing the blow instead of deflecting = Physical Strength
Parrying = Deflecting the blow instead of absorbing = Physical Dexterity
Dodging = Making the blow completely miss you = Physical Agility

This of course is if you only use part of the definition of Dexterity, which is "Skill and grace in physical movement, especially in the use of the hands" (Dictionary.com).

These stats would also play into other sub-stats. Strength could also govern damage, dexterity could cover accuracy, while agility covers swing speed (due to being able to position one's feet and body).

This brings up another gray area though, if you are swinging faster, aren't you hitting harder? I don't know all of the physics behind this but I believe that most of the time the faster an object moves, the more pounds per square inch of pressure it is placing on the impact point (Physics guru's, please correct me if I'm wrong).

Essentially, you are going to have play-test your mechanics into the ground. The more stats and sub-stats you add, the more they become twisted together. One of the best ways to go with this though, can be as easy as KISS.

Edit: If no one can tell, I have been bashing my head into a wall attempting to design a statistics and combat system myself lately (lately being... 6 months of testing and drawing board work).

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Quote:
Original post by HunterCyprus93
This may be true, but I was speaking of blocking with a shield in that first half of my post.
Fair enough, although a small shield can also be used to deflect - full shields a little too cumbersome ;)

Quote:
Generally this was because the weapons were slightly heavier (not sure how much over an epee or rapier) and you wanted to end your fights quickly. One or two parries and a counter and the fight was usually over. The parries were less graceful and involved a little more strength, and their primary purpose was to throw your opponent off balance, as well as to open them up for that counter.
It pretty much depends on the period and style - a rapier isn't much heavier than an épée, and parries very effectively, but a broadsword is extremely heavy, and as your arm tires, you are pretty much forced into a hack-and-block routine.

Which brings up another point of realism - different weapons should have difference parry/block modifiers. A light weapon such as a rapier is next to useless in defending against a broadsword (will break if it attempts to stop the blade), while a pike is useless at parrying a rapier (too unwieldy to block in time).

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Id like to address a few points that are getting under my skin, first a few that were in response to my last post though.

Six year olds don't fight with swords wearing armour. They never did, not even in fantasy gaming land.

If a mace could shatter an arm through a proper shield place, no one would have survived medieval war times with their left arm intact. You have a shield for a reason, if it didn't work, you wouldn't be holding it. Please keep in mind that you would probably have a hard time swinging a heavy hammer hard enough to shatter an arm and that is with out layers of padding, armour and a shield distributing the force and absorbing it. In the real world, a sword blow to armour didn't hurt you, it was when you got knocked down and stabbed in the neck between the armour plates that you died. That and armour was too expensive for everyone to have so many died from too little protection. But no, a mace was weldable, and that means it was no more than maybe 10 pounds, and that is as heavy and the most giant claymores were. yes, the tall as a man beastly claymores were only maybe 10 pounds. Most swords were 3-6 pounds.

On that last note, I'd like to mention that while a parry without force doesn't do anything, a parry without placement doesn't either. Lets give the fighter the benefit of the doubt and assume he has toned muscles that don't allow his fragile bones to shatter, that he isn't 6, that he knows how to place and angle his weapon to effectively parry and push it to actually move the other weapon out of the way, and that his arm isn't going to get tired anytime soon.

After all, is the player a 6 year old with the bones of a 90 year old and the swordsmanship of a fencer or does he actually have a 15-20 years of training with real weapons from the best in the kingdom because he is the prince and expected to defend himself from challengers and defend the kingdom from invaders?

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Quote:
Original post by swiftcoder
It pretty much depends on the period and style - a rapier isn't much heavier than an épée, and parries very effectively, but a broadsword is extremely heavy, and as your arm tires, you are pretty much forced into a hack-and-block routine.


I REALLY would love to know where people get these strange ideas of how 2-2.5lbs is some how so easy to swing around all day, but 2-3lbs is god awful to swing and you need to be some superman to swing it more than a few times.

Can you come up with a reference to a dig sight for an extremely heavy broadsword?

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Quote:
Original post by Delphinus
I think he means a greatsword or doppelhander. It's a common error.
Yeah, sorry. I was actually thinking more along the lines of a 2-handed claymore (5-6 lbs) when I wrote that - think the final battle in braveheart [smile]

Still, Talroth has a point in that when you have trained with a weapon for a long time, the weight is largely irrelevant. However, momentum plays a large part, and makes it much harder to change the direction of a heavier sword, making them vulnerable to quick deceives and circular parries from a lighter blade.

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Quote:
Original post by Delphinus
I think he means a greatsword or doppelhander. It's a common error.


Even then they're rarely more than 8lbs, and are used more as spears in most moves than they are as swords. (There are some examples I was aware of that were 10 or 11 lbs, but the researchers presenting them suggested they were more borderline ceremonial in function than to be used as a practical weapon, and any examples that weighed more were so tricked out in ornamentation, that they were never meant for the battlefield, and showed no signs of doing so.)

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I think William (you know, the one that ran a muck in England) had a claymore that was 10lb. That is the heaviest sword I have heard of as an actual example of being used. Most swords were 5lbs or less and very well balanced such that holding it out straight was almost no harder than holding the whole weight directly in hand. By comparison rapiers and epees are very whippy and too light and flimsy to actually hold any force. The only reason you can parry with one in the first place is you are hitting foil to foil. A real sword against another real sword is perfectly fine as for parries.

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Quote:
Original post by JasRonq
Id like to address a few points that are getting under my skin, first a few that were in response to my last post though.

Six year olds don't fight with swords wearing armour. They never did, not even in fantasy gaming land.

If a mace could shatter an arm through a proper shield place, no one would have survived medieval war times with their left arm intact. You have a shield for a reason, if it didn't work, you wouldn't be holding it. Please keep in mind that you would probably have a hard time swinging a heavy hammer hard enough to shatter an arm and that is with out layers of padding, armour and a shield distributing the force and absorbing it. In the real world, a sword blow to armour didn't hurt you, it was when you got knocked down and stabbed in the neck between the armour plates that you died. That and armour was too expensive for everyone to have so many died from too little protection. But no, a mace was weldable, and that means it was no more than maybe 10 pounds, and that is as heavy and the most giant claymores were. yes, the tall as a man beastly claymores were only maybe 10 pounds. Most swords were 3-6 pounds.

On that last note, I'd like to mention that while a parry without force doesn't do anything, a parry without placement doesn't either. Lets give the fighter the benefit of the doubt and assume he has toned muscles that don't allow his fragile bones to shatter, that he isn't 6, that he knows how to place and angle his weapon to effectively parry and push it to actually move the other weapon out of the way, and that his arm isn't going to get tired anytime soon.

After all, is the player a 6 year old with the bones of a 90 year old and the swordsmanship of a fencer or does he actually have a 15-20 years of training with real weapons from the best in the kingdom because he is the prince and expected to defend himself from challengers and defend the kingdom from invaders?



I am going to start with the fact that I have studied medieval and ancient weaponry, as well as martial combat with various weapons, both as a hobby, and professionally.

With that in mind, yes, your arm can break from a well-placed strike from an opponent. This would all depend on the condition of the shield you are wielding, the materials it is made from, the fatigue of both the defender and attacker, the weapon the attacker is using, the placement of the shield, the angle(s) at which the attacker hits, terrain (eg: high ground), as well as numerous other variables. Most shields were made of wood, generally covered with leather, some with metal bands. They were not solid metal, as that would have been too much weight on one arm. So again, a well-placed strike on a shield, could shatter the bones beneath, if the shield was not held properly (due to fatigue or inexperience) or placed properly. This is true for blows from most maces, hammers, axes, and greatswords.

(Maces were also around 2.8-3.6 pounds on average, 2-handed maces were a little heavier, but mostly because they were longer and used by cavalry)

You are also assuming that everyone wielding a shield was also wearing plate armor. Since you brought up historical accuracy with weapon weights, I would like to bring up that most militias would have had round wooden shields as defense (generally used in tandem with spears). Germanic tribes as well as many other "barbarians" used wooden shields, while wearing at most leather studded or banded with metal underneath. Plate mail (as you described above) was not for everyone, it was expensive to buy and to repair.

On the subject of armor, yes, plate mail was useful for stopping blows from swords when in hand to hand combat. The weaknesses of it involved the joints, which were usually protected by chain mail. Armor was, like shields, not perfect either though. Maces and hammers were useful against plate mail because they caused blunt trauma, even through armor. Some hammers and polearms were also designed specifically for taking out heavily armored foes. Lucerne hammers could puncture a knights armor with the large spike on the tip.

You assume again that the protagonist is a skilled fighter and in good physical condition (I would like to note I was using extremes as examples, and should not have been taken seriously). A parry requires different "stats" based on the weapon the defender is using, as well as the weapon the attacker is using. A perfect parry would take little strength and good placement, but how often would a perfect parry occur? I do not deny that placement, agility, and dexterity all play a part in a parry, but strength is important when those parries aren't perfect.

As an aside, the youngest child in 'The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe' was 8, but I believe the youngest to "fight with swords wearing armour" was 10. So again, you assume that the player is a prince with 15-20 years of experience from the best in the land.

So, for your next post, please don't assume multiple points and then come off as aggressive against me, because as you can see here, I will parry you and follow up with my riposte.

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And on that note, while being in the land of movies, I want to highlight another movie that takes place in Scotland that might prove interesting.

In the movie "Rob Roy" the english fencer Archibald Cunningham, using a light sword (a rapier?) and, being a master swordsman, begins to dismantle Liam Neeson (who plays the hero-character Rob Roy) which carries a much heavier sword, with small and lightning quick thrusts. Not being able to defend himself against Cunninghams quick strikes, Roy soon finds himself on his knees. But as Cunningham stands before him, gloating, with his sword at his throat, Roy grabs hold of the sword-tip with his free hand, lumbers up and hacks his own sword down on Cunningham, from neck to chest.

This might not be fun game mechanic, but I think that brawl, strenght and dirty tricks often won the day in the olden days. That is, if we are not talking about people who fought for a living or with a deep conviction of something; like the templars, knights or samurais. But I'm sure they too had their bag o dirty tricks too. ;)

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This isn't about your system, but I'll tell you that the best RPG Systems I've played in a 2D game are Megaman Battle Network, and Mother 3. You should check those out and see if you like anything about them.

Your system was kinda too much; didn't read, but all there was were stats. I didn't see anything about if it's going to be turn based, real time, or real time menu (.hack, VATS).

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HunterCyprus93, I admit that was probably a bit hostile, sorry. As to breaking arms and needing strength to parry, again, if you are inexperienced or tired, extra strength does help to overcome a misplaced movement, but a perfect parry is also not greatly helped by strength. Strength will make up the difference, but its not really a bonus above the best your agility can do for you. I guess thats the more subtle point to make.
As to breaking an arm, you mentioned 'shattered' which to me suggests literally many pieces not a simple break. That exaggeration aside, my specific assumption was that we were dealing with a character decked out as you might normally see in a game or movie. Even the more realistic barbaric characters of movies generally had a good bit of leather on, and leather was also normally worn with some padding, however low quality as leather isn't particularly comfortable on skin and can be rather cold. A decent wood shield, leather between it and your arms, and normal use conditions, would not have left broken arms. Yes, if you were tired, inexperienced, or in a very bad stance you might get a broken arm, but in normal use, the shield did its job. As I said, if it didn't work, they wouldn't have used it.

BTW, if I shouldn't be assuming the full plate seen in most games, then lets leave the kids in The Lion, the Witch, And the Wardrobe out of this.

PS. I also did make mention in that post that plate was expensive, not for all, and those without died often, as I put it, 'from too little protection'.

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Quote:
Original post by JasRonq
PS. I also did make mention in that post that plate was expensive, not for all, and those without died often, as I put it, 'from too little protection'.
Contrary to popular game mechanics, plate armour does not always have a positive effect. Sure, it is handy in a sword fight, but what about when you are being attacked my a mounted knight with lance, or avoiding longbow fire (either of which will punch right through heavy plate) - then speed and dexterity come into play, and plate doesn't help either one of those.

But if we are going down the realism route, you know the RPG game-mechanic I hate the most? The NVN-style ability to don or remove full plate in a single turn in the middle of a fight [smile]

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