useless rant about rudeness inside
I've just been noticing, especially over on the Beginners forum, there tends to be a tendency to bear teeth when helping people. It's not enough to help someone politely; you have to get a few digs in too.
I don't know if people are trying to emulate Oluseyi or what. I don't mind it when Oluseyi does it, because if game programming were cooking, Oluseyi would be Chef Ramsey. Sure, he's rude, but you're an idiot if you don't take his advice, and you might as well smile while you do it.
But when most other people try to do it, they don't come off as Gordon Ramsey; more like Meryl Streep in The Devil Wears Prada.
Just something to get off my chest. I don't want to name names or anything. I guess sometimes there's a fine line between being precise and plain, and being pedantic and cutting and generally just socially-retarded.
And no, this is not in reference to treatment I've received personally.
One should avoid taking up physics, I'd think. Computer science hobbyists are sweet and gentle in comparison. :)
I'm just kidding. One should take up everything that catches one's eye, and f*** the bastards. People with a chip on their shoulder should not be taken seriously whatsoever. They forgot how to have fun, and should be looked at with sympathy, not fear.
And yeah, I agree... Oluseyi is a no-bs type of person, which is completely different than the above mentioned folks, who tend to be ALL bs. :)
I'm just kidding. One should take up everything that catches one's eye, and f*** the bastards. People with a chip on their shoulder should not be taken seriously whatsoever. They forgot how to have fun, and should be looked at with sympathy, not fear.
And yeah, I agree... Oluseyi is a no-bs type of person, which is completely different than the above mentioned folks, who tend to be ALL bs. :)
Haha, yeah.
Oddly enough, I used to work with this guy pursuing a masters in physics, and he was nice as pie. If you asked him about quaternions, his face would light up like it was Christmas morning and he would tell you everything he knew about them.
Oddly enough, I used to work with this guy pursuing a masters in physics, and he was nice as pie. If you asked him about quaternions, his face would light up like it was Christmas morning and he would tell you everything he knew about them.
Quote:Original post by CDProp
Haha, yeah.
Oddly enough, I used to work with this guy pursuing a masters in physics, and he was nice as pie. If you asked him about quaternions, his face would light up like it was Christmas morning and he would tell you everything he knew about them.
This reminds me of a guy named Lubos Motl. The guy is very brash, but entirely on the ball. If you ask him about physics, he'll tell you the coolest stories until the cows come home. :)
I'm in full agreement here. I'm only replying to vent about it, but my input here is also pretty useless. =)
I've been dealing with some people (one in particular) who is more interested in arguing (I'm sure it's "debating" in his eyes) than helping the point of the topic. I am trying to be as reasonable as I can be, but I keep failing to keep my own mouth shut, which I am now learning I should be doing. Every time I respond to the guy, I never say anything to be openly aggressive in return. In fact, I said right out "I respect you as a programmer. I bet you could TRASH ME at design any day of the week." He continues to argue that my habits are bad, and he's constantly implying I am so inexperienced that I really should be sorry for posting while he's around. (Of course he never said that, but it's hard to tell with his neurotic NEED to suggest what should be done) This went one for 2 topics, not much, but it's became a large enough issue for me to be a concern. I know, I sound like a loser, but I'm just complaining. =P
My frustration stems more towards myself, because again, I am lame enough to respond. I KNOW I'm better than that! My rating begins to drop. My rating is where it is now because I open my mouth in my defense, even if each defense is non-bias and concedes to some point of the other guy. Why does this frustrate me? Because the rating is pretty much defined as a number to measure some form of credibility on here. Now I know what NOT to do, but these people tell me I'm snippy and are rude (You check my profile if it's important enough to check...), but MY rating goes down when they are, but I'm not! (While they are really high. In fact, GameDev.net seems to be in really high standing, but for reasons I'm having trouble seeing with even a moderator being kind of an ass) It's only an issue for me because I hate the idea of being ethically measured by a variable anyway. A number is a number... But what it represents...? God, I think there has to be some face-to-face conversation before you start sizing someone up.
So does this mean if I come in to the Beginner forum and act like a snob, I'll be more credible? What is this?
Again, I'm blabbing. It feels good to complain on the site that had the issue though.
I've been dealing with some people (one in particular) who is more interested in arguing (I'm sure it's "debating" in his eyes) than helping the point of the topic. I am trying to be as reasonable as I can be, but I keep failing to keep my own mouth shut, which I am now learning I should be doing. Every time I respond to the guy, I never say anything to be openly aggressive in return. In fact, I said right out "I respect you as a programmer. I bet you could TRASH ME at design any day of the week." He continues to argue that my habits are bad, and he's constantly implying I am so inexperienced that I really should be sorry for posting while he's around. (Of course he never said that, but it's hard to tell with his neurotic NEED to suggest what should be done) This went one for 2 topics, not much, but it's became a large enough issue for me to be a concern. I know, I sound like a loser, but I'm just complaining. =P
My frustration stems more towards myself, because again, I am lame enough to respond. I KNOW I'm better than that! My rating begins to drop. My rating is where it is now because I open my mouth in my defense, even if each defense is non-bias and concedes to some point of the other guy. Why does this frustrate me? Because the rating is pretty much defined as a number to measure some form of credibility on here. Now I know what NOT to do, but these people tell me I'm snippy and are rude (You check my profile if it's important enough to check...), but MY rating goes down when they are, but I'm not! (While they are really high. In fact, GameDev.net seems to be in really high standing, but for reasons I'm having trouble seeing with even a moderator being kind of an ass) It's only an issue for me because I hate the idea of being ethically measured by a variable anyway. A number is a number... But what it represents...? God, I think there has to be some face-to-face conversation before you start sizing someone up.
So does this mean if I come in to the Beginner forum and act like a snob, I'll be more credible? What is this?
Again, I'm blabbing. It feels good to complain on the site that had the issue though.
Moving to the lounge.
For Beginners is not for coddling. I am entirely unsurprised at the trend towards more aggressive discussion in that forum, because it is frequented by beginners (imagine!) who tend to be more impressionable than more experienced developers. As such, they may lack the discipline or comprehension to understand misinformation and generally bad advice when it is presented, and as such, it is understandable that said misinformation be vigorously rooted out.
Forums are not a medium of communication that allow for a lot of subtlety, alas, so often comments can be interpreted as being more abrasive than was actually intended -- or similarly, sometimes it is better to be direct at the risk of being blunt.
Many times, complaints are raised purely based on misunderstandings, and/or issues relating to not having a thick enough skin (to tell someone directly that they appear to lack experience in a given domain, for example -- something I do quite frequently -- is not necessarily intended as an insult to the person but rather an observation based on their own presentation). It happens, it's the internet. Some people act like bullies on the internet, hiding behind their relative anonymity, and some people are just abrasive all around.
For Beginners is not for coddling. I am entirely unsurprised at the trend towards more aggressive discussion in that forum, because it is frequented by beginners (imagine!) who tend to be more impressionable than more experienced developers. As such, they may lack the discipline or comprehension to understand misinformation and generally bad advice when it is presented, and as such, it is understandable that said misinformation be vigorously rooted out.
Forums are not a medium of communication that allow for a lot of subtlety, alas, so often comments can be interpreted as being more abrasive than was actually intended -- or similarly, sometimes it is better to be direct at the risk of being blunt.
Many times, complaints are raised purely based on misunderstandings, and/or issues relating to not having a thick enough skin (to tell someone directly that they appear to lack experience in a given domain, for example -- something I do quite frequently -- is not necessarily intended as an insult to the person but rather an observation based on their own presentation). It happens, it's the internet. Some people act like bullies on the internet, hiding behind their relative anonymity, and some people are just abrasive all around.
Quote:Original post by zyrolasting
So does this mean if I come in to the Beginner forum and act like a snob, I'll be more credible? What is this?
But you already did that. You were the one who acted like an arrogant asshat in that thread. The response was not so great, was it ?
Look, I'm going to be blunt here. Zahlman, the guy you seem to have a problem with, is an expert C++ programmer. You, on the other hand, are a complete noob. There's nothing wrong with this. Everybody's been there. That's what the beginner forum is for. But the idea of that forum is also that beginners should follow the advice of professionals who invest their valuable time into helping them out for free.
Zahlman was in no way rude. He only gave you valuable advice, and pointed out that your approach was flawed. Which is entirely correct. You, instead of following the advice of an expert in that domain, start to argue around and play the drama queen. Zahlman has a ton more experience with this than you have. When he tells you to not do something in order to avoid serious technical complications later on, then the right answer is most certainly not "I disagree". Zahlman knows exactly what he is talking about. You don't.
Quote:Original post by zyrolasting
Every time I respond to the guy, I never say anything to be openly aggressive in return. In fact, I said right out "I respect you as a programmer. I bet you could TRASH ME at design any day of the week." He continues to argue that my habits are bad, and he's constantly implying I am so inexperienced that I really should be sorry for posting while he's around. (Of course he never said that, but it's hard to tell with his neurotic NEED to suggest what should be done) This went one for 2 topics, not much, but it's became a large enough issue for me to be a concern. I know, I sound like a loser, but I'm just complaining. =P
Your groveling does not translate to "Shut up because I'm right".
Nor does Zahlman's desire to give you and others the option of improving your coding habits when you so readily admit lacking the experience to have perfect ones all around translate to some sort of neurotic syndrome. He's not forcing anything on you, and despite this being a public forum where many reply not just for the sake of the original poster -- but lurkers and others who might come across the thread as well -- he'd quite probably stop responding for your sake alone if you gave him a nice and simple "Thanks but no thanks" when it comes to such advice.
Instead we get this whiny gossipy insulting preschool crap leveled against one of the nicer, yet technically accurate people on these forums. He wasn't the highest rated non-mod (now tied with ToohrVyk) for nothing.
Now, me, I'm one of the abrasive all around types jpetrie just mentioned -- feel free to whine about me as much as you want -- at least there you'll have sound footing. You want credibility? Even a jackass like me can earn it by doing little more than keeping my head out of my ass, not assuming neurosis, malice, or snobbery where there isn't any, and helping out with an open mind. Okay, maybe that seems like a bit much -- but it'd at least be a start to do a single one of those things, wouldn't it?
(suggested reading -- and yes, you should be safe to assume neurosis malice and snobbery where there actually is some without adversely affecting your desire to credence)
Back to thread topic: Yeah, those jackasses like MaulingMonkey in the beginner forums, eh? [lol] He seems to frequent the lounge too <_<
Hmmm, didn't seem necessary to move this to the Lounge. Then again, it probably wasn't necessary for me to post it to begin with (but then why not just delete it?). Up to the mods, I guess.
Anyway, as I hinted at in my original post, I do definitely understand the difference between acting like a jerk, and being helpful in a plain way such as to appear tactless or without subtlety. I still think that there is too much of the jerky stuff, though. Again, I won't name names, but the person or people that sort of spurred this thread on were basically entering topics where the questions were already answered by other helpful, more-tactful people and re-hashing the answers, thus offering nothing new, but doing so in a very rude and condescending tone.
I just think if you're going to swagger around For Beginners like you're the hottest little programmer under the sun, you should at least bring some helpful information to the table.
Anyway, as I hinted at in my original post, I do definitely understand the difference between acting like a jerk, and being helpful in a plain way such as to appear tactless or without subtlety. I still think that there is too much of the jerky stuff, though. Again, I won't name names, but the person or people that sort of spurred this thread on were basically entering topics where the questions were already answered by other helpful, more-tactful people and re-hashing the answers, thus offering nothing new, but doing so in a very rude and condescending tone.
I just think if you're going to swagger around For Beginners like you're the hottest little programmer under the sun, you should at least bring some helpful information to the table.
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