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Dauntless

Historical FPS

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I wrote about this in my reply to Siegfried''s post, but I thought it might be interesting if I give it it''s own topic. What does everyone think about having a more "historical" FPS? I mean you really only have WWII, modern, and sci-fi shooters. What about something that goes a little deeper into our past? 1)WWI Trench Raider: These guys would slip in the night across the Dead man''s zone and kill a few people and slip away again. This would be a Thief like game, with knife kills a must (this is where the infamous Trench knife came to life) 2)Civil War mounted infantry: It may sound silly fighting with ball and cap guns, but imagine the skill it would take, and the harrowing experience of knowing it will take a minute to reload as someone charges you (better pull out your Colt Navy 1836...) 3)English Colonial Wars: Fight as a red coat against Berbers, Zulu''s, Afrikaaners or may be even the Crimean. One hot Henry-Martini rifles would require skill and patience to use 4)US 7th Cavalry: Fight against the noble Perce, or in the blood bath against the apache. Slightly better weapons with Henry, Winchester, and or Spencer rifles. 5)American Marine 1900''s: Jungle action in the Filipino insurrection (or Nicaragua), or fighting in the siege during the Boxer Rebellion. Well, the ideas go on and on. Frankly, I wonder why it hasn''t been done before (excepting Lucas fims venerable Outlaws). Are game designers simply unwilling to step out into something different? Do they think something like this wouldnt be fun or challenging? Do they just have no imagination? Do the suits that fund game developers think "history"="boring"=bad sales?

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Guest Anonymous Poster
The problem is that realism doesn''t always equate to fun. Sometimes it can enhance a game, make you feel like you''re actually there. But you have to remember that you don''t always necessarily WANT to be in the middle of things. I know I wouldn''t look forward to the joys of sitting in a trench for hours only to make one fatal flaw and get shot in the head. Obviously I''m exagurating and good game design can make any game playable. However the initial concept isn''t that strong to begin with.

Also many people, myself included, DO view historical games generally as boring and uneventful. I suppose it must be very hard to strike up a balance between the hardcore purists that need every detail to be exact and the trigger-happy Quaker''s that just want some instant gratification.

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Dauntless, I think you have some good ideas. Unfortunately, some anonymous poster types will always assume that you are only interested in making the most boring rendition of it that you possibly could. Some people fail to see that you are suggesting ideas for discussion and enhancement.

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Fresh

I like it. You''d certainly have a leg up on all the designs mining from the same exhausted fantasy/sci-fi vein (and I speak as someone making a sci-fi game )

There are tons of ways you could go with this, and some odd and interesting problems you''d have to deal with. The first would be gameplay, in terms of rates of interaction being slower. A pure FPS would be tough I think, especially if you were a peon, because the interaction rate would be lower the more primitive the weapon. In terms of realism, foot soldiers were often cannon fodder. So you''d need a way of making the player special. (I think the trench raider idea a lot in this respect).

You''d also have some interesting history to revise / downplay, assuming you''re sticking close to historical accuracy. Those once viewed as good guys are now more rightly seen as conquerers. I think there''d be squeemishness from the publishing side at even depicting some historical groups (Zulus, or Cherokee, or Mayans, for example) as aggressive even if there were documented battles that those groups started. The problem would be very difficult because of the perspective, which is much closer to the bone than an abstract military wargame. It''s one thing (in people''s minds) to command a British regiment, and quite another to be the one gunning down hundreds of charging Zulu soldiers.

I could be wrong. Game morality has already dropped through the floor, so there''s no reason to think it can''t go further.

Good ideas, nonetheless.

--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

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I didn''t want to be the first one to say it, so I waited. As an African and an individual only too aware of the atrocities committed in the name of colonization - and I''m not talking about physical atrocities, but rather the psychological variety - I suppose I can authoritatively state that though "history is written by the winners", the truth is still out there.

You maintain in another post, for example, that the American Civil War was actually over the tyranny of a central government. Tell that to folk whose ancestors were slaves. Things you see from your perspective as fair and logical may appear warped and uncharacteristically cruel from the perspective of others.

I was over at the GarageGames forums the other day, browsing (don''t ask why) when I came across an idea for a game called "LA Riot" which was to recreate the 1992 race riots - riots incited by the beating of Rodney King by about a dozen police officers. The idiot went as far as to divide character classes by ethnicity and use derogatory slang terms and stereotypical portrayals for all of the - "Slant Eyes" for Chinese storekeepers (that''s right; every Chinese man was a storekeeper by that design) and so on.

I think this may be the real reason why no "politically incorrect" war/conflict RTSes are made - the potential backlash is too strong.

That said, i think there''s tons of merit in the idea. Just be sensitive in your dealing with the historical matter, and do some serious research on both sides of every conflict. Allow the player to be either side - Berber, Zulu, Afrikaans included, and give both sides equal chances of victory.

''Nuff said.

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Oluseyi and Wavinator

I did actually think about the morality angle, but I guess I didn''t really mention that you could play either side out. I guess one of the things that WWII FPS have been able to avoid was that you always played "the good guys" on the Allied side. You might have some dillemas if you played a German or Japanese character. But as I said, you could play either side which would blur the lines (a freedom fighter indian or Zulu warrior protecting his homeland?). Game balanicing issues might be very diffucult, but I think it could be done.

Unfortunately, the slaves were caught in the middle. But just as not every German in WWII Germany wanted the final solution (indeed it was only a small but powerful minority), so to most southerners were not advocates of slavery. I hope you don''t get the idea that I''m not sympathetic about what happened. But I think there''s a difference between being PC, and being truthful. The trick is, knowing how to be truthful without being offensive to others (which can be insanely tricky). The thing about playing out the LA riots would serve in my opinion nothing more than an "US vs. Them" type of scenario. Being of mixed race myself, I see this as this greatest internal threat that Americans face....and sadly most of them don''t even realize it (being mixed has it''s good and bad points...but one of the good things is that I can see two world views...both the good and the bad...and how each of those worlds view each other)

I''m part Filipino myself and I came up with the idea of the American Marine thing because of the history there. The Colt 1911A, the infamous .45 caliber (think Magnum PI) was developed to counter the Juromentados of the south (religious fanatics....unfortunately much akin to the Abu Sayeff plaguing the US right now) that simply could not be stopped with .38 caliber handguns of the time. The term, "leatherneck" also came about during this time period due to Marine''s wearing leather staps (from their dress uniforms) to protect their necks during knife fights. In many ways, the US presence was an oppressor, as Aguinaldo didn''t want the US to stay in the Phillipines. But I still think it would be interesting to play.

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I can''t wait for a decent western FPS to come along.

Imagine yourself standing on the roof of the small western town hotel, using a six shooter to shoot someone in a saloon across the street. Imagine your teammate throwing a stick of dynamite into the saloon and it blows boards and glass shards everywhere, tearing apart the walls and roof of the saloon. A deformable world would be a must...

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quote:
Original post by Moe
I can''t wait for a decent western FPS to come along.

Imagine yourself standing on the roof of the small western town hotel, using a six shooter to shoot someone in a saloon across the street. Imagine your teammate throwing a stick of dynamite into the saloon and it blows boards and glass shards everywhere, tearing apart the walls and roof of the saloon. A deformable world would be a must...


wasn''t there one called Outlaws? Although I''ve never played it.




...A CRPG in development...

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Sorry for AP, I''m sure you''ll understand as you read

I was interested to see the morality issue come up, because I''ve been playing around with a very non-PC historical game idea, and everyone I''ve told about it advises me NOT to make it..

Here''s the basics...

You''re a Nazi with a regular job at a Jewish extermination camp..

One day, a group of those "evil" Jews escapes. OH NO!!

Your mission is to search through the surrounding woods and capture/kill all Jews. It''s critical that you get all of them because it will mean the end of humanity if they reach civilization and "infect the world with their inferior genetics"..

The game would start out with a cinematic of a bunch of "evil" Jews discussing their plan to "ruin the world" simply by propagating.

Of course, when you find them in the woods they are unarmed and totally defenseless. You must kill them in cold blood.

At the end of the level, as your score is racked up, a little spinning star of David pops up for every kill...the background would show you standing with your gun next to a gassing chamber..

The original idea was to make fun of Nazi propaganda..the very thought of these "evil" Jews determined to destroy the world be spreading their "inferior" genetics is ridiculous.

Unfortunately, most people don''t get that..if I actually wrote and released this(which I would do anon, if ever), probably the only people who would like it would be racist/Nazi/morons who wouldn''t even realize that they''re being ridiculed..

I always get a kick out of people''s reactions to this game idea..usually after I point out the obvious(that I''m making fun of how utterly stupid the Nazi/Jew xenophobia thing is)people understand, but all agree that this game should never be made..

Any thoughts? Anyone? I''d really like to hear some feedback on this one..



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The world is extremely sensitive to the Nazi/Jew issue - so much so that the term "anti-semitic" has been redefined to mean "hate Jews" (all Arab peoples are semitic, so it''s the height of stupidity to say Palestinians, for example, are anti-semitic). 50 years on, Germany is still feeling the emotional after effects of the war - interesting because the majority of the population today either weren''t born or were children incapable of comprehending and participating.

The Jewish people were also deeply scarred by the war - you need to hear a Holocaust survivor speak. However, sometimes the thing is a tad overplayed (any action percieved as "anti-semitic immediately raises cries about lessons learned from the Holocaust), and other nations/peoples have suffered similar - and worse - fates.

Jews are a very powerful segment of American society and will stomp your game into the ground should it be released (remember that Joe Liebermann - Senate''s gaming "censor" [I use th term very loosely] - is Jewish; this will only be fuel to his fire). Also, with all the recent (agreed, misguided and uninformed) outrage at violence and suggestive themes in games, the timing for such an endeavor is inopportune.

Finally, computer games have not yet been accepted by the general public as an artform - a medium for storytelling. The notion that computer games are for children persists (note how many movies and TV series have parents trying to get their kids off the Nintendo - e.g. The Sopranos), which is why there is the strong belief that video game themes should be restricted to childish pursuits. It''s wrong, of course, but until such ideas are uprooted, the world is not a ready audience for the game.

Plus, it''s actually offensive (the Stars of David are a malicious touch).

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