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Gromit

might I suggest?

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I agree. It doesn't do anyone any good if you try to pass off your company or your group as something they're not.

The real way to get team members is to be honest with them up front, tell them your plans, keep them involved, and make sure everyone's involved and having fun. Most importantly, remember that unless you're paying them REAL MONEY, they're not employees.

I wrote an article on this a few months ago; it's available on my site.

Mason McCuskey
Spin Studios
www.spin-studios.com

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Every programming team has to start somewhere, and all of the successful ones have started like this.

Perhaps most of them have failed, but some succeed. Id software is an example of this.

btw, your game looks boring, mason. Ray-traced pre-rendered graphics is old technology, and certainly nothing I'd want to blag about.

yours,
An amataur game developer

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When did prerendering became bad looking because its not some "cutting edge" routine?

Also, all the routines that are "cutting edge" supposedly are mostly old-hat for graphics workstations, so if you are truly bored by things that arent cutting edge, you shouldnt like anything out there today.

-Geoff

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I agree and disagree. I think that everybody needs experience, and if this is what they want to do, let them.On the other hand. I, too, think that there are a LOT of people who pretend to be real developers.

Me for myself did kinda the same, but after a while I stopped. And went working for my own again. I'm more like a graphics dude lately, effects and stuff. I got some real ideas which should be new to the industry, and shouldn't be too hard to implement. Once I finished my education, I will make a demo with all these effects implemented, and see what they think of it.

Is THIS a better way, in your views, Gromit?

------------------
Dance with me......

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I agree that you shouldn't try to pass yourself off as something you're not, but if you start a group, and someday they actaully do publish the game you made, you'll want to have all the profit cuts sorted out so there's no disputes. Some of these groups have good ideas; if they can make it work, and it gets published, great, if not, then you chalk it up to experience. But they shouldn't go out thinking it will- just that it might.

------------------

Lack

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Now, Now, Don't get me wrong now. I think it is great that new game programmers are getting together and developing something. I just don't think that it is right calling your self a company when you are not. Just because you have a free website on geocities does not make you a company.

As for the slander that took place on this thread #@*% you. If you are going to give feed back on someones game, then do so.. creativly. if you just want to bad mouth it, then #@*% off, the world can do with out you.

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Bob -

My god! You're right! I don't know why I didn't see it before! Thank you for saving my reputation... trying to release a game with pre-rendered graphics would have been the most embarrassing mistake of my career!

See, I did some research... turns out there are virtually NO ARTISTS working in the game industry, because no real development shops use pre-rendered art. That's why you see so many artists looking for work on the message boards, and why rendering packages like 3D Studio and Maya are hardly ever purchased by real game companies.

Last night I scrapped Qua and started coding a game that generates all its art on the fly. It's pretty basic now, but in a couple of days it should be able to generate stuff that looks like Diablo II or Baldur's Gate... only my art will be so much better, because it won't be pre-rendered!

Thanks for opening my eyes.

Mason McCuskey
Spin Studios
www.spin-studios.com

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Yeah, I agree there, I felt that was quite inappropriate of Bob to say that.

I also agree that young people getting together to make a game is cool, but they just brag about it. For instance, they'll say that they're working on a new RPG which will be the best ever. Does anyone ever see that game? No, it's never finished. These groups are taking on projects which are too big for them to handle and complete. Just my two cents...

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Bob has it all crossed, and its obvious it was a hit-and-run attack because he's unregistered....

I believe that even though 3D is now "cutting edge" pre-rendered high-quality animations are so much more visually entertaining than realtime 3D. When we have realtime raytracing built into hardware running at constant 60fps at 1900x1400 or so then I think we can hail the end of prerendered graphics. But not until then.

- Splat

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Guest Anonymous Poster
All I was saying is that pre-rendered artwork is not as appealing as real-time renderered stuff, which can have dynamic lighting and transforms.

Games like 7th guest (1993) and Psycho Pinball (1995) used pre-rendered artwork to great effect, but I thought things had changed, with the advent of fast hardware acceleration, and to use pre-rendered art for a commercial game seems silly.

I know this is none of my business, it's just it surprised me to see somebody putting down new developers with possibly innovative ideas (however unsuccessful), when their ideas are so bland.

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You use whatever is appropriate for your game. Personally I think Quaternion looks pretty cool just as it is and I hope it makes it into the finals of the IGF.

It seems to me the whole point of this thread was for those people who are trying to come off as this great development group with the next million copy seller to realize they're probably deluding themselves and trying to sell a load of crap to the public. If you're just starting out own up to the fact. There's no shame in it. Everyone starts somewhere and those that have made it more than likely have written a couple of sucky games. People aren't impressed with words, they want to see results. When you've put out a game, then you can brag a little.

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Pre-rendered art still has a rather large place in commercial games. Take a look at Baldur's Gate, Final Fantasy VII and VIII, the Resident Evil series... there's a large list one can compile. All of these sold big.

Jonathan

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You dont have to go sulk in a corner, but the reason people reacted so strongly is that you were really harsh and unappropriate with your comments.

All my games (www.lupinegames.com) use presendered graphics, and there is absolutely no way I could have gotten real-time rendering to look even fractionally as good quality.

You use what the interface and game call for. 2d/3d rendering are just tools to a visual effect.

-Geoff

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I agree that some real timed rendered stuff can look very cool ect. But i think prerendered graphics have a large place in a game (specially in 2d games). I mean look at Heroes of might and magic 3 its all prerendered and the first time i saw it i was simply amazed.

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I want to point out that I think Bob missed the point of the original post (which I happen to agree with). No one is trying to put down people with new ideas. Quite the contrary. The thing we are objecting to is the posing that goes on by a lot of newbies who have probably never even made a game, and yet they pretend that they have a legitimate company. To make things worse, often these people declare themselves the "idea man" because they have no programming or artistic skills to contribute. C'mon, if I'm going to work for free (and anyone who works for a cut of the profits IS working for free), it's going to be to implement my own ideas, not someone else's.

As Mason said, it's better to just be honest. There are a lot of people out there willing to join teams; you don't have to pretend to be something you're not to appeal to them.

Oh, and read this article, written by someone with extensive industry experience, before criticizing a game's technology again.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Just thought it worth agreeing with the last post, and as a linkd issue i might advise any of these 14 year old newbies to code a 2D game before they get too stuck in 3D. It seems every toher post or chatroom topic is a newbie coder needing 3D bilinear-mip-mapped-real-time-translucent mega-rendering help, when these people have never even finished a game of pong.
I agree hugely that too many people are becomming blinkered by new technology, especially in the 3D area. I regualrly play and enjoy Age Of Empires II, which is old-tech, and also Aliens vs predator which is new tech. its the gameplay that matters.
Also like to echo the point on geocities!, it really dosent cost that much to sort out your own domain, and if you dont do it, dont expect to be taken too seriously.
just my $0.02

Cliffski www.positech.co.uk

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Why do all these people that are building programming groups and starting their own companies of 14 year old newbie programmers who have never even programmed anything before.... Think that the game that they are making, is going to be published.

There are thousands of groups out there that are making games, and only a couple of them might get it published.

I keep reading through here everyday and posts keep pop'n up asking for more programmers or artists or idea people for a new game that the group is making, and then promising a cut of the profits. It doesn't happen that way!

Might I suggest that all you new groups that are pop'n out of the woodwork... stop promising a cut of the profits and admit that there will never be any money. It would be much better to say that they can use it as experience for their resumes.

please remember.... admit it!

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You need to start somewhere. First read interviews of the now well know famous programmers, artists, level designers etc. and then you see how they started. Before you say something very wrong! Points are that you need to work hard and plan everything carefully. Use your time usefull in a project, don''t do things what you can do in one time, twice. That are the important things. Motivation is also the key. Working with the right people. Working using an organized system with work methods is important.

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Talk about digging up old posts here...

I agree with most of you in saying that these so called "idea men" need to either get a clue or learn how to program. However, I don''t really appreciate the comments towards younger programmers. Some stupid newbie that is 25 years old can act just as ignorantly, if not more ignorantly, than a 14-year-old stupid newbie. BTW, I''m getting my game published! Woohoo!

Martin

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I have to agree with most of what has been said. I''ve asked recently about an artist to help with a game, but have been upfront that we hope that it would be commercial, but many games aren''t. It''s just a fact. I think that your remark about young coders is out of line, though. For anybody, of any age, that''s a newby, to try to make Quake3 or UT is absolutely absurd, but there are some competent younger (no, not nine year olds and stuff...) programmers out there, you don''t need forty-five years in the industry to do something! Don''t get me wrong, most of them are newbies, and are dreamers (I know of a few...), but to stereotype any group, for almost anything, is wrong! (Safe bet on stuff like "All four-time murderers that have broken out of jail are dangerous.", but you should get the point.)

Also, I''d like to stress that not everything needs to be shipped in order to make a team. I enjoy making games a lot, but don''t have too much artistic talent. I''m also a competent 3D programmer and tools programmer. Does that mean that I can''t make a game because I can''t do music or my 3d models? Obviously I can''t just "borrow" somebody else''s art forever (except personal demos!!!).

I doubt that this is what you meant, but it seemed that the discussion was vering towards this opinion. By the way, Mason, your game looks great. Congratulations on your published game too, IPSoftward. I wonder how old this post is when I responded, it''s 7/1/00 now.

Mike Weber
shockonline.homestead.com/openglgameprogramming.html

p.s. I know that my site''s url sucks. Maybe I''ll change it someday...or maybe I''ll update it more often...

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Well, I know to set my sights not so high... I am making an Isometric engine with all that is required for my task at the moment is to make a player move around a flat map . Seems like a resonable target for me to achieve... and it isn''t like I really care about graphics anyway... I loved those old text based adventure games.. I even made a few QBasic ones (before a nasty crash formated my HDD ) and a Turbo Pascal One (see last comment ). But I spose I am not a "newbie programmer" although I would say I am fairly a newbie game programmer (graphics anyway ).


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