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devmaster

Vision Game Engine pricing

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hello everyone, I am looking for a game engine and have chosen the Trinigy's Vision Game Engine. Unfortunately the price is not public for individuals. We are individuals currently and haven't made an organization for the time being. I would like to ask if some of you could tell me what is the price approximately. I know there are several prices according to the chosen platform (PC, XBox360 , PS3 , etc...) but I would like to hear any numbers anyway, you know... I have to decide if we are able to get it but there is no public information about the approximate price. So please anyone, if you know anything about it please share it with me. Thanks in advance

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Contact them and ask for a quote. They clearly state their pricing is individual.

But I get a feeling that this might not be a hobby development engine and they only cooperate with established companies.

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I have already asked.Still no answer. That's why I wanted to learn its approximate price from someone who own it. I know it is a professional game engine. We are serious team but still haven't made a company. We will do that eventually but first we are looking for making the game and after that looking for publishers.

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There is no approximate price with these kind of engines. They don't say the price is variable to be awkward or secretive, they do it because the price really varies enormously.

For example, the Unreal 2 Engine officially cost $350,000 for one platform, plus $50,000 per additional platform. The Unreal 3 Engine probably costs even more, typically. There is at least one developer who got a license with no money up front at all - pure royalties - and I'll bet there are other developers who got all kinds of odd deals inbetween, designed to suit them, Unreal, the game and everything else.

So if anyone did share a price, it wouldn't really tell you anything about how much you would need to pay, and that's even assuming you could rely on information which could not legally be given without breaking an NDA. In other words, anyone who gives you an answer is either defying an NDA and risking legal action, just to be a nice guy to someone on "Teh Intarweb" that he doesn't even know, or he's just giving you some old pony he made up on the spot because it's fun to BS to people. I'll leave you to decide which is most likely.

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Quote:
Original post by devmaster
I have already asked.Still no answer.

While that may seem unprofessional from their side, it is not too surprising. It will be quite obvious to them that you don't really fit their core business interests. Professional middleware developers get a lot of requests from hobby developers, and in order to reduce the workload, some have chosen to either not respond to such queries, or to send a generic 'no interest' email. Usually, you need an established company with a track record in the industry and a minimum annual turnover in order to even be considered as a potential customer.

Quote:
Original post by devmaster
We are serious team but still haven't made a company. We will do that eventually but first we are looking for making the game and after that looking for publishers.

That's usually the point where any business related communication with a professional engine developer will find an abrupt end. Depending on how they operate, they might not even be legally allowed to deal with you, because you are not a registered business.

I would suggest you stay with free or indie-targeted engines at this time.

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Thanks for your replies guys.
I know there is no exact answer anyone could tell. Anyway I am not seeking what is the final price. I also don't want to break any rules and get me or anyone else in trouble sharing information that is no supposed to be discussed.
I am just curious for the time being. Of course I couldn't pay $100 000 + for software technology for the time being. Let me ask the question in another way. Is the price for that kind of engines (in this case Vision Game Engine) more than $100 000 ? Is it about 200 000? or it is about $1 000 000 ?? Do you catch what I am trying to find for an answer? Just assurance for myself. Am I able to pay for it or no. So if someone could tell is it in the range 0 ~ 100 000 $ or more than 100 000 I would decide that on the fly.
@Yann , there should be starting point for any team in the world. There are no established teams who make their first title. But this title is going to be published anyway because if not why did that team even start doing it anyway?
Many of indies such as me doesn't hurry registering a company. Because if registered they should start paying taxes immediately. In my case we are working on the title like people doing their hobby. When we finish the game (it will probably take 3 - 4 years, because we are learning the technology while making the game) we will register immediately a company and will start searching for publishers who will definitely pay attention to us , because they will see a working team , they will see a good title .
I have bought some game engines from GarageGames. So I am already in the business. Now , at this moment , not indeed, but some sunny day after 4 or 5 years I and my team will be in the business.
I need another kind of technology because I have decided to move to another engine for any reason. And I think these forums here are a great starting point for searching because here with this great community I know there are people who are in the game development and could share some thoughts with the beginners. So if the price for the Vision game engine is too big I will definitely move to another engine.

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The Trinigy guys (maker of the Vision engine) once had an indie offer: pay 100€ upfront, develop the game, pay the full amount when you've got financing. But I don't know if this offer still holds true.

Expect the final price to be maybe a tenth of the UE2 prices named above. But as others stated before: exact prices do vary widely. So talk to them to learn more. And if the don't react, move on.

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Quote:
Original post by Codeka
Like with anything that doesn't advertise price, "if you have to ask, you can't afford it".


Not necessarily.

There is also the: "we'll take whatever you can afford" business model. It's based on the "bird in hand..." approach.

When dealing with a volatile market, rather than asking for huge sums upfront, then not getting paid because customers go bankrupt before you can collect, it's often better to charge something you know (hence the registered business requirement, which can have its finances checked) the customer can afford right now.

In this particular case it makes sense, and the above mentioned pricing sounds reasonable. But the small upfront sum may also indicate that such support could be dropped, since EUR100 might not be worth the processing cost, and not enough products make it to profitability.

Quote:
There are no established teams who make their first title.


Established individuals count as well, even if the team is new.

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We used to use this engine in an indie project, I was not the one setting it up, but we were all amateurs, so a lot of the comments above that they are only interested in well-established companies surely wasn't true at that time. In fact, they were very patient with us, in the sense that they gave us a lot of support on issues we really should've been able to have worked out ourselves. Of course I don't know how much they changed from there on, but I can't imagine it being THAT much.

I don't know what kind of an e-mail you sent them (that they did not respond to), but I guess it helps to be specific in the kind of deal you want to make. So for example, state you want to make a title for platforms x and y, at first you want a license for 6 months to develop a prototype, with no public releases, and from there on you may or may not license the engine for at least 2 more years, with the option of prolonging, and such and such plans on releasing, etc.

Worst case, the e-mail you sent them now was as general as 'what does it cost to use your engine?', and in that case I'm not surprised you don't get a response. If you do some research into how licensing works, and can ask specific questions, I'm quite sure they will be able to (and willing to) give you an offer. After all, they need to make money too :)

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Another comment, a bit off-topic but it might save you from a huge pitfall/money drainer. I quote:

Quote:
When we finish the game (it will probably take 3 - 4 years, because we are learning the technology while making the game) we will register immediately a company and will start searching for publishers who will definitely pay attention to us , because they will see a working team , they will see a good title .


Maybe I'm mis-interpreting your post, but it seems to me a lot of work in your 'company' (let's just call it that) that can be done without licensing an engine is not done yet. From my experience, the Trinigy Vision engine is quite easy to work with. I personally loved it at least, but granted, it was my first (and last) professional/commercial engine so I have little to compare to. What I intend to say is that it will not take you long before you become productive with this engine, given that you have enough skilled programmers in your team.

The point I'm getting at is this: make sure that once you start licensing this engine, or another that needs to be payed for, you already have as much work done as you can on other fields. That means you have the design of your game finished to the smallest detail possible, you have loads of artwork sitting there waiting to be used, you have a team of people ready to test/work with what the programmers create, etc.

If you have prepared well, you should be able to license this engine or another for a reasonable price (I don't know if I'm allowed to say what we payed for it, so I won't.) because you will not need to license it for 5+ years.

In my opinion, as I kind of said in the last post already, after you've prepared, try to get a license for developing a prototype that will not be released, in other words get the engine for a limited amount of time just for trying-out purposes. That will keep your costs as low as possible. Set milestones for the time you have the license (say 12 months). Set goals in advance that need to be reached in order to conclude the project is succesful enough to extend your license. Also, use your prototype to attract investors/publishers and such. Waiting till your game is finished is not gonna cut it, believe me. If you can show that your company was able to produce a decent prototype (given the time and resources available), that should make them confident you can in fact finish the whole project, as long as your 'plan' is good enough (like I said, detail, detail, detail. Every aspect of your game needs to be on paper, preferably up to the level that programmers can just 'translate' it directly to code and it's done :)).

Disclaimer: all this advice given is by a huge amateur, with very limited experience in this sort of thing. I just want to prevent you from making some of the mistakes we made, and that killed our project :)

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Quote:
Original post by devmaster
Many of indies such as me doesn't hurry registering a company. Because if registered they should start paying taxes immediately.


You do realize you would only pay taxes if your company had an income don't you? Even at 50% taxes, 50% of 0 is still 0.

I would agree that people may not register their business because they don't want the hassle of filing a $0 tax return.

John

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Quote:
Original post by borngamer
Quote:
Original post by devmaster
Many of indies such as me doesn't hurry registering a company. Because if registered they should start paying taxes immediately.


You do realize you would only pay taxes if your company had an income don't you? Even at 50% taxes, 50% of 0 is still 0.

I would agree that people may not register their business because they don't want the hassle of filing a $0 tax return.

John


that's not right. In my country (Bulgaria) and almost everywhere in Europe and America if I register a company for developing sofware products, selling pancakes if you wish , whatever , I must pay about 300 euros just immediately after registered plus 150 to 200 euros a month. So I will end up the year with 300 + 12 * 150 = 2100 euros. the other taxes you are talking about are taxes on the profit. This is something very different . Here taxes based on profit are from 10% to 15% of the profit. So no matter whether I realize any profit or no I must have minimum 2100 euros per year to have a company(organization).

So to clear things about my "strange" person here :)) let me tell you that I am already engine owner (T3D) and keep on making my game with my team of friends engineers just like doing their hobby. Some sunny day when our game is about to be ready we will move from professional to commercial version of T3D and then register a company. So please don't mess up thing. This is the way for non rich teams.

My only wish starting this thread was to learn something about the Vision game engine. And exactly the price. I don't hide that I am looking to move to another technology but companies like Trinigy don't use to answer to indie developers obviously. So till the moment we realize something we will be obviously using cheaper but accessible technologies such as T3D.

Once again thanks everyone for joining this discussion. :)

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they might also not have a price range. They might look at your total profits and say hey we want 4% royality and 10,000 on a tight contact that makes your company only able to use them for the next 2 or 3 years

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Original post by devmaster
that's not right. In my country (Bulgaria) and almost everywhere in Europe and America if I register a company for developing sofware products, selling pancakes if you wish , whatever , I must pay about 300 euros just immediately after registered plus 150 to 200 euros a month.

While I don't know about Bulgaria, your statement is definitely incorrect for most (all ?) other European countries. You pay a one time set-up fee (which is roughly 100 Euro for an LLC-style company here in France, for example, if you do all documents yourself without a lawyer). You don't pay anything after that if you don't generate an income.

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[/quote]
While I don't know about Bulgaria, your statement is definitely incorrect for most (all ?) other European countries. You pay a one time set-up fee (which is roughly 100 Euro for an LLC-style company here in France, for example, if you do all documents yourself without a lawyer). You don't pay anything after that if you don't generate an income.[/quote]

Yann, I believe there is no country around the world where the owner of a company has not to pay anything for hist employees. I am not talking about salaries but I am talking about all the kinds of insurances (health , finances).

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Original post by devmaster
Quote:
While I don't know about Bulgaria, your statement is definitely incorrect for most (all ?) other European countries. You pay a one time set-up fee (which is roughly 100 Euro for an LLC-style company here in France, for example, if you do all documents yourself without a lawyer). You don't pay anything after that if you don't generate an income.
Yann, I believe there is no country around the world where the owner of a company has not to pay anything for hist employees. I am not talking about salaries but I am talking about all the kinds of insurances (health , finances).
But, you can form the company without any employees at all. In fact, I have seen companies (not necessarily in game development) which operate continually on this basis - the executive board don't have to be considered as employees, and all others can be dealt with as subcontractors (thus no insurance/benefits are required).

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Original post by devmaster
Yann, I believe there is no country around the world where the owner of a company has not to pay anything for hist employees. I am not talking about salaries but I am talking about all the kinds of insurances (health , finances).

The owners of the company do not have to be employed to work for it. As swiftcoder said, it is quite common to have startups operate in this way, even for long times. In some countries you can claim unemployment benefits during part of the start phase of a new company. And most countries offer other help, such as free legal advice (drafting of your TOS, trademarks, patents), zero-interest loans, etc. When you eventually generate a (small) profit, there's usually a threshold below which this profit is tax-free.

Quote:

that's not so important at all. Everybody decides what best fits for himself.

Sure. But it's pretty obvious from this thread that you need to learn more about how all this stuff works before diving head-first into a larger project with a commercial game engine. Doing this without the required administrative knowledge can land you in big trouble. A lot of startup companies fail due to such issues.

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Quote:
Original post by devmaster


While I don't know about Bulgaria, your statement is definitely incorrect for most (all ?) other European countries. You pay a one time set-up fee (which is roughly 100 Euro for an LLC-style company here in France, for example, if you do all documents yourself without a lawyer). You don't pay anything after that if you don't generate an income.[/quote]

Yann, I believe there is no country around the world where the owner of a company has not to pay anything for hist employees. I am not talking about salaries but I am talking about all the kinds of insurances (health , finances).[/quote]

That is absolutely not what you were getting at when you mentioned monthly fees pertaining to a business licence, because employees and inherent benefits have as much to do with a business licence as your rent overhead, which is zero.

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