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Drakonite

Cheap hobiest console dev kit.

132 posts in this topic

sorry i have to get in on this...

Someone in a previous post said something to Burt, like to "shut up"

First of all, Burt has made the FIRST intelligent post i have seen here yet! Second, you actual think a business company, run around money, is going to give a bunch of teenagers reduced priced dev kits because they really really want them! This is a laugh. Go to Nintendo with an awsome demo however, show them your a respectable force in the industry, that you''ve got the talent and you can prove it, and the matter MAYBE will be considered.

Third, I think something like this makes us look bad. We''re posting things like, "I''m in! Me too!"- It''s like we''re joining a cause against Nintendo and Sony. These companies aren''t evil, and the reason their dev kits are sooo expensive is because they are soo gooooood! They weren''t meant for teenage garage developers. They were intended for commercial game development for groups with leading publishers.

Don''t get your hopes up kids...
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homebrew dev-kits

i dont know why you want to write mails to nintendo or sony because there are already dev-kits available for hobby programmers. i''ve done some coding for the psx for some time and the only thing you need is a gcc X-compiler and cheat catridge like ProActionReplay or Xploere/Xploder to upload your work to the console. there are also a lot of tools available like debuggers, gfx and sound tools as well as librarys. so why not build your own dev environment. (just an idea)
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quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
Someone in a previous post said something to Burt, like to "shut up"


That "someone" is a moderator and had earlier asked APs not to post negatively. Furthermore, "Burt" sounded identical to "Kevin", both APs - which incidentally you are too. FYI, moderators can see your IP addresses and lots of other good stuff.

quote:
First of all, Burt has made the FIRST intelligent post i have seen here yet! Second, you actual think a business company, run around money, is going to give a bunch of teenagers reduced priced dev kits because they really really want them! This is a laugh. Go to Nintendo with an awsome demo however, show them your a respectable force in the industry, that you''ve got the talent and you can prove it, and the matter MAYBE will be considered.


I think it''s funny how someone who lacks a true understanding of business and economics proceeds to lecture others. Observe: Nintendo, etc are in this biz for money. Nintendo, etc need name recognition and positive association to attract consumers (Nintendo, for a long time, cultivated the "kid-friendly"/"family" market while Sony went for more "mature" audiences). Everybody has realized that games are a major market force, and the vast majority of buyers are in the 18-49 age demographic. Therefore, everybody now targets that group - which includes your "bunch of teenagers."

If acquiescing to this request gives Nintendo or one of its competitors a favorable position with its target audience, it will sell more units of its products as a result (barring horrible quality). Don''t agree? Look at Linux on PS2; that was community-driven.

Using a defunct product to create a lot of PR and goodwill is smart business. Most corporate philanthropy is based on creating goodwill, getting customers to think well of a company. Have you heard about Microsoft''s Shared Source initiative? The idea is to make the source code to MS products freely available to CS students, allowing them to observe advanced, working code. The side effect is that they become accustomed to MS dev tools and more likely to stay with MS platforms. The bonus (for MS) is that such people can not legally in engage in reverse engineering because they have been exposed to the source code of the product - and competing technologies like Linux (think SAMBA file/print sharing) depend on reverse engineering to compete in certain identical spaces/markets.

This could be a similar coup for Nintendo et al in that they could be cultivating a pool of future developers. If they turn it into a regular feature (releasing the SDK to a console, say, 10 years after it dies down), they grow a generation of developers familiar with their tools and eager to use their environments.

Solid business strategy.

quote:
Third, I think something like this makes us look bad. We''re posting things like, "I''m in! Me too!"- It''s like we''re joining a cause against Nintendo and Sony. These companies aren''t evil, and the reason their dev kits are sooo expensive is because they are soo gooooood! They weren''t meant for teenage garage developers. They were intended for commercial game development for groups with leading publishers.


*sigh* The perils of the one-track mind. Expressions like "I''m in!" and "Me too!" connote enthusiasm , not animosity. They express how interested these people are in lobbying Nintendo and others for these dated devkits. Nobody said or thinks they''re evil. And their devkits aren''t so expensive because they''re "so good"; they''re expensive because these are monopolistic oligopolies - a few companies controlling majority (or, as in this casee, all) market share. In such markets you can raise your prices arbitrarily because your customers have no alternatives. If some other company came in with a comparable machine and a devkit several orders of magnitude cheaper, and was able to sign solid developers and generate profits for everybody involved (a nearly impossible combination), then the "established" companies would be forced to lower their prices. It''s simple market mechanisms.

quote:
Don''t get your hopes up kids...


Get your hopes up! You can achieve anything you really set your mind to and work hard for. I can''t commit the time to this effort, but I pledge my support for those who can and do. And as for people such as this AP - the real "kids" (obviously, from you lack of virtually everything business and/or fiscal) - ignore them. I''ve shown why it makes financial and business sense for companies like Nintendo to at least seriously consider your proposal. There may be changes to allow them also benefit financially from this (they may be able to sell some more SNESs, for all you know - and they''ll already be charging you for what had been written off as losses [the unsold devkits]), but it is definitely feasible.

Rock on!
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Sign this petition here for those who want to develop for the playstation 2. The japanese kit is already out cost about $199 US and comes with a hard drive, modem, vga card, mouse, keyboard and linux cd plus some other dev tools. You need a ps2 since that is were you''ll be developing on. So show some support and sign it.
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quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
sorry i have to get in on this...

Someone in a previous post said something to Burt, like to "shut up"

First of all, Burt has made the FIRST intelligent post i have seen here yet!


I was reffering not to the post where he ''identified'' himself and nearly contributed but to the three AP flame posts he flooded this thread with right before that. Yes, it was the same person - I can see IP addresses. Anonymous flooding will not be tolerated. It made me sick censoring him, but I did give a fair warning.


Mike
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Oluseyi

1: The whole thing about ''burt'' - I am not a regular to these forums, and all i saw was one post by him, and that moderator giving him a bashing reaction. So yes, I had good reason to be upset by it.

2: Unfortunately, the world 3/4 of the posters in this topic are dreaming of doesn''t exist. I have to respect the fact that you bring up many good points! However, If you examine further, you''ll notice that some of your points don''t cut it in this case.
For one, you mention things like old Nintendo Technology(SNES). That''s a great idea! I would love to do that. Here''s my vote...

I''m in!

3: Heres the catch. Look over this entire topic. Not everyone has the same vision as you. They started a sigining of signatures for PS2 Dev Kits! PS2!! That''s not exactely old technology. In order to get Sony or Nintendo to give us these reduced priced kits, we have to convince them that our contribution to the system will help them financially. I don''t see how a group of internet forum users, who may or may not have the skils required for such a complex console as the PS2, will help Sony and Nintendo in the long run??? All we are doing is getting a list of names! What does that prove to a sony/nintendo?

And BTW, don''t ever...ever...question my economics :-)

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To the last AP...

Yes, I know others have putted in mentions for the ps2... And we are NOT orginizing anything to try to get this. The fact is, I don''t care about a ps2 dev kit, until I''m in a position to be able to use it, and get a publisher, which if I am in that position, I could afford it...
I know that there is no way to get anythign cheaper that is for current systems... it just ain''t going to happen! And if you read what I have said, I am not trying to move in that direction. As the started of all this madness, I hope I can keep it from going to ps2.

As for all the negetive feedback... to a point this is necesary, however you are just repeating yourselves now! I know all of your points, and even a couple more. Unless you have something original to say, whether PRO or CON, please do not post anymore, as this thread is begining to fill with junk. Thank you.

The fact that just about all of the negetive posts are from AP''s sickens me... Why can''t you step up and take resposibility for your words?

After I posted about most likely moving away from the snes and moving to something such as psx, I have received numerous emails from people, with enough funds to purchase what the snes hardware would cost, and therefore, I believe we will still try atleast something...

I am currently working on the letter to be sent, for everyone to view, and it will work out as a petition, as the participants has grown to a large enough number for it to look better that way. However, due to the fact a couple projects have recently had their deadlines moved sooner, and getting stuck helping someone move, having to put together a portfolio for a new programming job, along with all of the other stuff I am getting stuck with this week, I will probably not get a chance to write it until after this weekend. (It''s been years, another week or two will not harm anything!)

So as soon as I get time, all those that have sent me there email address will recieve the full update, and I will write and send the letter to some people for review.

Thanks for all your support.



Drakonite

[Insert Witty Signature Here]
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yay! an actual petition wud b nice. also, to all you annonymous people, MAKE A GAMEDEV ACOUNT!!!!!! it''s free, takes only 2 seconds, and doesn''t make you look like an idiot *cough*burt*cough* my $0.02
~~KaMiKaZ~~
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yay! an actual petition wud b nice. also, to all you annonymous people, MAKE A GAMEDEV ACOUNT!!!!!! it''s free, takes only 2 seconds, and doesn''t make you look like an idiot *cough*burt*cough* my $0.02
~~KaMiKaZ~~
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Yeah, I agree, what the hey, why not go for it?

What would the idea of "Cheap" be anyway? 1500 Pounds (Something like $2200 here in the USA) dosen''t seem like "cheap" to me, but I guess it''s all relative.

When do we start?
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I would be in for any dev kit I could get my hand on. I have been searching for a yarouze for months! We currently develop PC games, but I have always waned to get into consoles.

-Mike
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I have been coding on the Sony net-yaroze for some years, this provides most (not all) of the functionality of the professional Playstation development hardware.

Maybe Sony would re-start the net-yaroze program if there were enough interested.


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Just to clarify, I don''t mind rational non-AP flames and encourage constructive critizism. Flooding a thread with irrational anonymous non-constructive flames like ''Burt'' did is not allowed here. I wil be gone for the weekend so please behave.


Mike
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i am intersted in these development kits.
might be good to some experience as i want to be a programmer
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quote:
Original post by rampage6666

Maybe Sony would re-start the net-yaroze program if there were enough interested.




Okay folks, what do you think the Linux for PS2 "interest survey" from Sony America ***IS***??? It''s not for professional developers -- you can be sure that via licensing rights and/or hardware and software configurations will restrict commercial development. If they didn''t, every dev studio would grab these up, because $250 for a dev kit certainly beats $15k for the official kit. (And believe me, it''s about that much; our office has four of ''em. Ch-$$$-Ching!)

Anyway, since it''s not for "the pros", it''s for you guys. It''s Sony''s net-yarouze-2 program, but since they''re still figuring it out, it''s not officially "hobbyist" yet.

---- --- -- -
Blue programmer needs food badly. Blue programmer is about to die!
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quote:
Original post by mossmoss

Okay folks, what do you think the Linux for PS2 "interest survey" from Sony America ***IS***??? It''s not for professional developers -- you can be sure that via licensing rights and/or hardware and software configurations will restrict commercial development. If they didn''t, every dev studio would grab these up, because $250 for a dev kit certainly beats $15k for the official kit. (And believe me, it''s about that much; our office has four of ''em. Ch-$$$-Ching!)

Anyway, since it''s not for "the pros", it''s for you guys. It''s Sony''s net-yarouze-2 program, but since they''re still figuring it out, it''s not officially "hobbyist" yet.

---- --- -- -
Blue programmer needs food badly. Blue programmer is about to die!




...I wasn''t going to say anything about this just yet, however I was going to say something soon...

I have just recently pulled together the cash for a ps2 (which I am getting tommorow) and was looking for exact prices on some accessories when I came across the ps2-linux.

If anybody here has lots of info on it please let me know, post or whatever. I am researching it now and if nothing else, will email sony tommorow.

Actually, japanese doesn''t translate to well into english, so the official page is kind of confusing, so I probably will email sony.

I will let you all know what I find out, and what sony says.

As for the other stuff... well, if sony is taking a step this way on their own, we are best off supporting them.



Drakonite

[Insert Witty Signature Here]
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quote:
Original post by Drakonite

If anybody here has lots of info on it please let me know, post or whatever. I am researching it now and if nothing else, will email sony tommorow.




In case you missed it, some relevant information regarding this is about 15 messages up, posted by Anonymous.

The short of it: a bunch of folks petitioned SCEJ (Sony Japan) to release a version of linux for PS2 for hobbyists. End result: Sony listened; they sold several hundred copies in a matter of hours.

Now SCEA (Sony America) is polling to determine interest in a similar kit for the U.S. The link is here.



---- --- -- -
Blue programmer needs food badly. Blue programmer is about to die!
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About the PSX...

All that would really be required for hobbyist PSX development (aside from official docs and software, of course) is a custum serial cable and an official black sony boot disc *. The serial cable would be used to connect the PC to the PSX (via serial port, of course), and the boot disc would contain a minimalistic OS that would be used to transfer user-written programs and data from the PC to the PSX. We''re talking maybe 50 cents of production cost, minus support fees (and Sony could potentially charge anywhere up to a few hundred dollars with monthly subscription - and we''d still be praising them).

The problem, however, is that this development environment will make it quite easy for pirates to write programs that load bootleg copies of games into the PSX. And while it is true that illegally playing games in this way (verses a mod-chip) A) costs more, B) is more complex a process, and C) requires the use of PC during game play, Sony will never, ever do anything that might potentially open up a backdoor for piraters (even if this new backdoor is much more complicated and costly than the ones pirates are currently using).

A second option would be to provide hobbyist developers access to PSX documentation and closed support sites on, say, an annual bases, while leaving the developers "on their own" as far as the hardware goes (serial cable and mod chip, sony can provide a cd image). The advantage here is that Sony is no longer legally responsable for any software piracy that occurs, since the software pirates have to use custom hardware (much like how no one can sue Sony over losses due to mod-chip piracy - that''s just plain stupid).

-mark

PS: Snail mail and petetions always work better than email spamming.

PPS: I''m actually developing a web site devoted to independant hobbyist PSX development. I''ll be sure to post a link, but don''t expect anything for a few months.

* The real PSX development kit comes with a whole lot of other hardware too. Most of this extra hardware, however, simply provides extra debugging support, and isn''t really essential.
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Well the boot disk for the Yaroze loads the OS into an area of memory used by published games - so to try to load up these games would fail, it can be done but virtually all games use this memory.

If I were you guys, I seriously would consider trying to get Sony to reopen this program, the last cost of the Yaroze units were £200, you can make pro quality games on them and the libs are as close to the full set that you need, since all the other functions left out can be written by yourselves and indeed have already been done by the existing members.
Another bonus to this is Sony still make the PSone, so they wouldn''t need to make large production changes to do this, so they may still consider it.

However, it does seem as though they are attempting to create a Yaroze2 with the Linux kit (although the Linux kit isn''t the same thing in many ways, which I won''t go into here) so it may be worth joing the petition to get it released in the US and Europe.


Good Luck!





Marc Lambert

marc@darkhex.com
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Heh, yea... I signed the PS2 Intrest Form like 2 weeks ago and told all my programming friends to do the same... I hope they do release it here and for a reasonable price. (I''d be willing, but not very happy; mind you, to pay up to $800 for it. Thats how insane I am... Its either a PC or a PS2 Dev Kit... I''d choose the PS2 Dev Kit by far.)

Alex Ford
PointSoft EA Co., Ltd.
http://www.pointsoftonline.com
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If you''re looking to do PS2 development, sign the dang form so Sony knows! You''re looking at the "next Yarouze" if they hear enough interest.

If you''re looking for PSX development, it''s already possible. Check out www.psxdev.de for a whole buttload of linux based tools (which may/may not work under windoze). It will require a PSX with the expansion port on the back (search the pawn shops!) and finding a cheat cartridge with a cable connector (ie, like a parallel port). Find the flash image on the web and you can program PSX too! (I know it works, I''ve done it.)


---- --- -- -
Blue programmer needs food badly. Blue programmer is about to die!
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