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ZeRaW

Cloud Gaming

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I was thinking about Cloud Gaming (onLive, ...) and wanted to know how it is really done. I am assuming the following about it: - Client is a dumb rendering machine that sends keystrokes to server. - Server sends keystrokes as emulated keyboard input to a game instance and gets a result as a frame buffer, the buffer is compressed and sent to the client which decompresses and renders. The problems with the scenario above: - Sending key input and waiting for result would give a delay. - Server running a game instance is a 1 to 1 ratio which is not practical (and expensive). - Compressing the frame buffer (at least 24 times a second) gives a delay. Also according to the above, to see a decent 24fps video the server has to actually send the framebuffer 24 times every second. If the resolution was 800x600 => it would have to send around: 24 * 800 * 600 (assuming each pixel representation as one byte) that is around 11MB of data every second. Now unless online and other have figured out a way to compress a video stream and keep the quality I do not think it is playable not even if every household has 100Mbps connection. The above is video, there is also audio. I've always thought video/audio compression is lossy i.e. It will be hard to deliver a 720p experience, but onLive is promoting it as feasible on a 5Mbps line that is around 640KB/s at its peak. I am reading some articles about the subject: http://www.techradar.com/blogs/article/cloud-gaming-is-broken-and-unplayable-626487 http://news.softpedia.com/news/Crytek-Attempted-Cloud-Gaming-Way-Before-OnLive-110232.shtml http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=1090 I do not see it working on LAN even, or am I missing a key info?

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We'll see once the services go live.

Raw numbers are far from a problem, the only question is latency. And that can only be tested subjectively in practice.

Quote:
It will be hard to deliver a 720p experience, but onLive
is promoting it as feasible on a 5Mbps line that is
around 640KB/s at its peak.


As far as video goes, HD-like quality can be realistically streamed, you can test it using a Silverlight example(up to 3Mbits/second) or a random youtube example (around 1Mbit/second).

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Yes the above exmaples are right but I was talking about latency
as the videos that should be sent over a cloud gaming service
should be an interactive video, the input of the client determines
the result of the next stream.

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Dedicated hardware can do realtime compression on the order of 1 ms per frame, that's what they are claiming anyways, which seems fesible. You can buy a USB device to compress video streams at 30fps so it's not an impossible technology.

As for latency most people will accept about 100-200 ms latency for most games as imperceptible, that gives them a working window well within technological limits.

Sending key : ~1 ms delay at most (the client isn't do anything but waiting for input so its not limited to a normal update loop, it can send the input as soon as its generated)

Key travels to server : ~50 ms ( assuming 100ms ping between server - client for instance )

Frame is processed on server : ~33 ms ( assuming 30fps update rate for game, some games have 60fps update which will reduce this by 1/2 )

Frame is compressed : ~1 ms (with dedicated hardware)

Frame is sent to client : ~50 ms

Frame is decompressed on client : ~15 ms ( Onlive specifically states their codec can do 60fps decompression )

Total time from input to decompression of frame : ~150ms, about as fast as u can blink.

Technologically this is feasible, but from a business model standpoint that has yet to be shown (and that is where their real challenge will be imo)


-ddn

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Im not sure what this thing is doing -- is the rendered frame sent to many watchers or is each frame going to each client significantly different (a custom view having to be prerendered each) ???

Depending on what is composed for the picture being generated, might it be better to compose the picture on the client with subfeeds and render directives instead
of the entire bitmap (even if compressed).

Also I would think that besides single frame compression, some kind of delta compression be done to (possibly significantly) cut down the data size. Even if there are crunch intervals (like when full sync frames are sent) video presentation usually buffer ahead some frames and the average savings of delta compression could still be significant.

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Your understanding of the client and server seem to correct for OnLive. There are interviews that explain the concept. Also their site explains it very well. The main thing is that they have a compression algorithm they're using that's apparently fancy.

I signed up for the beta a long time ago. I was hoping to get in and test it with my work computer from Michigan. I get 20 ms ping to virginia which is where one of their servers is located, and I have a fiber line, so I can see this being very promising.

I could see myself playing with HD video quality. I can stream HD videos and such online just fine at work.

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Actual problems that I see which will be true even if the bandwidth/latency problems turn out to be truly solved:

- Server farms still have to be located very close to the clients (as far as network topology goes, this is still very closely related to spatial relationships). The result would be that everyone gets off work and wants to play games at the same time, slamming the same server farm at once, while the server farm across the country would be completely empty because everyone's still at work. This is a HUGE waste of potential server time.

- You basically need at least $500 worth of server equipment per player. The most expensive components of a gaming PC are the CPU, GPU, and RAM, and each client needs to use most of each of those components.

- Hardware becomes obsolete too quickly; You will have to buy brand new servers every 2-4 years. This is a big reason why consoles are as popular as they are compared to PCs for the average gamer.

- You would have to lisence the actual software you want to make available. Game developers barely break even as it is (if you take the average of the entire industry), so I can't see how a publisher would want to provide some kind of bulk discount since the service would detract from their own retail sales.

- Subscription costs to make a profit under the previous constraints would need to be too high to attract very many customers.

[Edited by - Nypyren on September 12, 2009 1:06:38 AM]

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Original post by Nypyren
- You basically need at least $500 worth of server equipment per player. The most expensive components of a gaming PC are the CPU, GPU, and RAM, and each client needs to use most of each of those components.


RAM is cheap, im not sure why your saying its one of the most expensive parts. My power supply was a bit more than the cost of my 4gb of ram and my mother board was a lot more. If I would have gotten the case I really wanted, that would have also been much more than the cost of the RAM but I can see why you left that off the list ;)


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Quote:
Original post by Azh321
Quote:
Original post by Nypyren
- You basically need at least $500 worth of server equipment per player. The most expensive components of a gaming PC are the CPU, GPU, and RAM, and each client needs to use most of each of those components.


RAM is cheap, im not sure why your saying its one of the most expensive parts. My power supply was a bit more than the cost of my 4gb of ram and my mother board was a lot more. If I would have gotten the case I really wanted, that would have also been much more than the cost of the RAM but I can see why you left that off the list ;)


Sometimes RAM is cheap. Assuming they try to do the whole "put multiple CPUs and GPUs in the same box", they will start running into something that most PC game developers have forgotten even exists: BUS CONTENTION.

Can you imagine the poor system trying to cope with 4 quad-core CPUs and 4+ high end GPUs? You are obviously going to need some kind of ridiculously badass motherboard and RAM, otherwise the box will starve itself. Although the motherboard (and in particular the bus/memory controllers) cost would be higher than usual, I suppose the RAM might not need to be that much better.

If they decide to go with "have a conventional, high end gaming PC per player instead of trying to run multiple sessions on a huge beast of a server", then the PSU, motherboard, and hard drive costs start taking a higher % of the overall cost, while RAM can be a bit cheaper, and CPU and GPU costs can more or less stay the same.


As far as the other hardware stuff is concerned:

- Power supplies have to be pretty beefy, but nothing out of the ordinary compared to what people have to put in triple SLI gaming rigs.

- Large/high performance hard drives would be on separate networked file servers instead of on each the gaming host itself, so those costs would scale far better than any other bit of hardware involved.

- Most components in server farms have been optimized for less power / less heat. However, traditional server farms don't typically need ANY gaming-class GPUs. High end GPUs are by far the worst offenders for both heat and power consumption. The cloud gaming server farm's power and cooling would have to be better than usual, and better = more expensive.

[Edited by - Nypyren on September 12, 2009 1:29:04 AM]

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Original post by ddn3
Dedicated hardware can do realtime compression on the order of 1 ms per frame, that's what they are claiming anyways, which seems fesible. You can buy a USB device to compress video streams at 30fps so it's not an impossible technology.

As for latency most people will accept about 100-200 ms latency for most games as imperceptible, that gives them a working window well within technological limits.

Sending key : ~1 ms delay at most (the client isn't do anything but waiting for input so its not limited to a normal update loop, it can send the input as soon as its generated)

Key travels to server : ~50 ms ( assuming 100ms ping between server - client for instance )

Frame is processed on server : ~33 ms ( assuming 30fps update rate for game, some games have 60fps update which will reduce this by 1/2 )

Frame is compressed : ~1 ms (with dedicated hardware)

Frame is sent to client : ~50 ms

Frame is decompressed on client : ~15 ms ( Onlive specifically states their codec can do 60fps decompression )

Total time from input to decompression of frame : ~150ms, about as fast as u can blink.

Technologically this is feasible, but from a business model standpoint that has yet to be shown (and that is where their real challenge will be imo)


-ddn


Correct me if I am wrong but 100-200ms on a network game is acceptable if the client is using some kind of client side prediction, but in this case there is none,
the client has to remain still for 200ms and wait for next frame from server.
I think that it is feasible if there are localized servers for every city in the world and that the city has connections of +5Mbps.
It will cost the providers a lot of money as mentioned, the servers for running games at full resolutions have to be amazing and the hardware would be update at least once per year.

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Original post by Nypyren

- Server farms still have to be located very close to the clients (as far as network topology goes, this is still very closely related to spatial relationships). The result would be that everyone gets off work and wants to play games at the same time, slamming the same server farm at once, while the server farm across the country would be completely empty because everyone's still at work. This is a HUGE waste of potential server time.
Server farms are relatively cheap these days. They come in boxes.

Quote:
- You basically need at least $500 worth of server equipment per player. The most expensive components of a gaming PC are the CPU, GPU, and RAM, and each client needs to use most of each of those components.
Considering these are bulk orders, prices differ from retail.

Quote:
- Hardware becomes obsolete too quickly; You will have to buy brand new servers every 2-4 years. This is a big reason why consoles are as popular as they are compared to PCs for the average gamer.

Cutting edge - yes. But this is intended to go way beyond that. Imagine this being playable on netbook. Or integrated intel card on 5-8 year old machine. For large number of users, this would be an upgrade.

And, there are many titles which simply do not need beefy hardware.

Quote:
- You would have to lisence the actual software you want to make available. Game developers barely break even as it is (if you take the average of the entire industry), so I can't see how a publisher would want to provide some kind of bulk discount since the service would detract from their own retail sales.

Imagine this: PC games solve the piracy problem. Publishers solve the second hand sales "problem". Console makers solve the mod chip "problem". And every game offered gets retrofitted for no cost to be available just as Steam or other online retailers do, lowering the barrier to entry to that of youtube video viewing.

Imagine game loading screens being replaced with localized advertisement....

As always, things in bulk look very different from retail.

But as said, time will tell.

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Publishers solve the second hand sales "problem".


The reason car manufacturers can charge as much as they do for cars, is that there is a second hand market. The existence of a second hand market makes it possible for people to afford new cars at current prices, when they otherwise couldn't. The same economic theory applies to games as well. Second-hand sales is not a "problem" -- if you did your economic analysis right, you'd see that high-budget games wouldn't even be possible to produce without second-hand sales.

Regarding the other draw-backs, here's my take:
1. ping time between player and server farm: This is the big one everyone wonders about. There's been some claims that there will be server farms in major metropolitan areas to help this.
2. Latency of video encoding: Modern hardware encoders can encode a frame faster than a frame duration. Thus, this may add 10 ms at most.
3. Bandwidth: Netflix Streaming is the best! Their movies are typically around 3 Mb/s in fairly high resolution. Personally, I think that streaming HD is the way of the future. The main question is how quickly broadband will be upgraded to 6+ mbps (lots of Europe, the US, Koera and Japan already are beyond that), and how the rights holders will deal with the inevitability of losing disc sales.
4. Cost of the server game hardware: Yes, a server gaming rig is more expensive than a web server "pizza box." However, if one gaming rig can serve, say, ten subscribers (because they don't all play at the same time), then there's significant economy to be hand. The consumer doesn't need to buy expensive graphics hardware anymore -- in fact, a $100 MP4 decoder box could be sufficient. ("Play Crysis on your TiVo!")

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I don't think Onlive or it's competitor Gaikai are using the traditional server setup where the GPU on the motherboard is actually doing the rendering rather it's a cloud GPU configuration of specially built hardware. This GPU cloud is more flexible and scaleable than having 1 to 1 GPU to CPU configuration. I read somewhere (slashdot?) ATI custom built this for Gaikai.

Essentially all render sessions are handled by the cloud which probably also does the realtime compression, so this leaves the CPU server farms with the task of just running the games/applications. This decouples the upgrade problem, as you can integrate new GPUs into the cloud and gradually expand its capacity/capability without having to take anything offline. It's a smart scheme.

The question really if if this takes off how soon before MMOs and other large game companies start offering their own "OnLive" services?

[EDIT: here is the link to the ATI GPU cloud:

http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09%2F01%2F10%2F011250&from=rss

in response to ZeRaW:

Client side prediction/interpolation is done on fast action multiplayer games where multiple people share a virtual world to compensate for the aftereffects of individual latency. The problem is that each player updates to the server in an irregular fashion resulting an inconsistent snapshot of state for each player. To combat this various algorithms were developed to sync the players state over time so people see the same things within an error range. For a single player game there isn't any external inconsistent inputs which could cause that affect. Your not going to see a solider run and suddenly pop back 10 feet to their original location in a single player game running on a remote server.

Multiplayer games also do local client side fx for increase responsiveness of the game (like allowing gun fx to fire etc..), because this improves the games appeal, but isn't an absolute requirement for a multiplayer game.

]


-ddn

[Edited by - ddn3 on September 12, 2009 2:34:17 PM]

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Quote:
Original post by hplus0603The same economic theory applies to games as well. Second-hand sales is not a "problem" -- if you did your economic analysis right, you'd see that high-budget games wouldn't even be possible to produce without second-hand sales.


Hence the quotes around certain claims. The reason for mentioning this was simply the press coverage about publishers employing various lock-in tricks to minimize second hand sales.

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The reason for mentioning this was simply the press coverage about publishers employing various lock-in tricks to minimize second hand sales.


Right. What I don't understand is why publishers think that's a bad thing? Second hand sales basically means that two customers go:

"I can't afford this new game on my own, so I'll split the cost with you, and I'll play it first for a while, then you'll play it a little later, but you get to keep the DVD. Deal?"

When you do it through GameStop, you just remove the need to know up-front who the second user will be -- in fact, GameStop makes that market work better, and thus actually causes even more new titles to be sold.

If that option didn't exist, they'd sell fewer copies, and/or they'd have to sell at a lower price. Generally, that's not a goal of publishers, so I don't see why the publishers would want to remove the second-hand market at all.

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What if ten customers say "we'll split the cost and the last one gets to keep the dvd"... The publisher will get paid for one customer, but pay the price of hosting servers, replacing scratched discs and taking customer service calls for x10 as many. They would sell fewer copies without second hand sales? I doubt that, it seems more likely less money is going into the system, and with more players and more playtime the costs is just go up. How can second hand sales possibly gain publishers?

What if 100 customers split the cost... will that one sale still support all the costs? What if only one person ever played the game, but resold it 100.000 times... would the $50 suffice to support the game? Can you see a pattern?

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Original post by fenghus
What if ten customers say "we'll split the cost and the last one gets to keep the dvd"... The publisher will get paid for one customer, but pay the price of hosting servers, replacing scratched discs and taking customer service calls for x10 as many. They would sell fewer copies without second hand sales? I doubt that, it seems more likely less money is going into the system, and with more players and more playtime the costs is just go up. How can second hand sales possibly gain publishers?


"We lost the election, clearly the problem are the people..."

The Game:
Basic - $9.99 - beige box with title written on it
Home - $19.99 - decorated box with manual, comes with one mail-in disk replacement voucher
Premium - $29.99 - comes with 1 year support contract and 2 replacement vouchers
Ultimate - $49.99 - unlimited support for one title
Luxury - $99.99 - unlimited support, 4 volume concept art, 2 DVDs covering the production, autographed picture of developers

And there's more. These packages could include various degrees of free or paid access to DLC, patches, custom content, editors, .....

Someone who will buy the game to play for 4 hours then toss it does not want or need to pay $60 (as current prices are), yet this is what publishers want. Such people pay premium markup, they will generate no support calls and incur no additional cost.

Also, if you join our premium club, you get free support(*), and a 50% discount on the title of your choice**, all for $59.99 per year***.

*limited to one disk replacement, phone calls might require 1-900 number.
**titles may be chosen from the list of bargain bin flops below)
*** does not include VAT, may include state or country taxes, may include additional provision, void where prohibited



Evil, isn't it...

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I like those ideas Antheus, but even if publishers don't want to go that far, it would be nice to have some sort of single-player only offer... e.g. 10 bucks for CoD4 single player campaign, but no access to multiplayer. It probably would not cost them anything, since I don't know any reasonable person that would pay $40-50 for just the single-player campaign of CoD4 (beat it in ~3 hours on my friend's xbox..).

@OP you make an assumption that the resolution of the images being sent would be 800x600, but that seems to be a very generous assumption... your computer would have to be truly draconic to be unable to run most modern games at only 800x600 resolution (my computer is nearly 2 years old and I can run crysis on high settings at 1680x1050 resolution). Personally, no amount of AA, motion blur, object fade, blah blah would make me want to play a game at 800x600 res...

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Original post by fenghus
What if 100 customers split the cost... will that one sale still support all the costs? What if only one person ever played the game, but resold it 100.000 times... would the $50 suffice to support the game? Can you see a pattern?
Yes, obviously if only one person bought the game and it gets sold 100,000 times on the second-hand market, the publisher loses. Do you really think that's what happens, though? That it's the "logical" conclusion?

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@fenghus: What if 10 players split the disc?

Economics solves this very well! First, would you *really* split a disc with nine friends? I mean, you'd be player #7, right after the really bad scratches start showing, but you'd still have #8, #9 and #10 breathing down your neck to finish it so they can play, too.

If that's what you want, then you're paying for that level of experience -- $6 per person, if it's an even split. That's fine -- you probably wouldn't be able to pay $60 for the full game, because you're willing to play under the circumstances above. If you *could*, clearly you'd want your own copy instead, right?

But, let's say you actually had $60 to spend on games. Create a pool where you and 9 of your friends each buy one game, and then rotate the games around in a circle. If you have not much time to play games, you'd probably just stick with the one game and not bother trading. If you had lots of time, but not much money (and thus not ability to buy 2, 3, ... 10 games yourselves), you'll be in the cooperative of other players like you. Because you want to pay about $6 per game, and can stand a bunch of inconveniences that others wouldn't, you end up paying $6 per game.
From a publisher's point of view 10 games are sold, each at $60. From a consumer's point of view, you're playing 10 games under bad conditions with time delay and scratchy discs -- or you're playing 1 game under conditions of your choice. It doesn't change how much the publisher makes, but if the publisher forces you to not trade, then it changes how you buy games, and actually makes you enjoy (and buy) less games.

'cause, you know, un-DRM-ed MP3s sold online would be the end of music, right? Nobody would actually pay $10 to buy bits (no disc, no paper) for an album off a place like amazon.com, right?
(Just like un-DRM-ed movies sold online will be the end of movies -- don't these people *learn* ?)

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While you can't do client side prediction when getting a video stream from the server what about doing server side prediction instead?
I.e instead of server sending you frames rendered from you action 100 ms in the past, it could predict "the world" 100 ms from now, render and send that world.
I guess this would have the same artifact as client side prediction (but you could of course smooth things out better if everything is rendered on the client).

Other positive side effect with server based rendering is that it eliminates all cheats that is possible by modifying rendering code on the clients.

I still think that the server costs are too high atm to make it a viably option, but "cheap" gpu based solutions such as AMD's proposed solution might make it work.

I.e if an average gamer are willing to spend $100 a year on these games, then the server cost (hardware, staff, internet, power etc) for serving a single player may not exceed $500 a year in order to make some profit (assuming that 6 players can "share" the same resources by only playing an average of 4 hours a day).
I don't think it's feasible today, unless the graphics rendered is very simple (but then what's the point?), on the other hand a really powerful video compressor is needed to produce good low bandwidth video and that will probably eat a lot of power (CPU, GPU.. whatever) per player.

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Well consider the market, retargetable high quality interactive video streams can be served up to mobile handheld, netbooks, laptops, desktops, consoles, through web browsers. I think if they think outside the box they have plenty of customers. The utilization rate will probably be something more like 20 : 1 per cpu. Most of them won't be playing Crysis but perhaps playing WoW on their netbook, or Fallout in the browser, or some XBLA game on the PC.

As for quality they can always reduce the resolution dynamically to scale with demand / performance for the appropriate platform. They control the GPU completely so they can basically do anything with the rendering.

If this catches on I'm sure developers will support OnLive directly and have latency compensation technology built right into their game with regards to remote input.

-ddn

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Chalk me up as another person who will believe it when I see it. Around 2000 the big thing in computing was distributed computing, and in many ways, it was a huge success. Instead of having (arbitrary numbers) 1 server that runs 20 teraflop, you have 10 smaller servers running at 2 teraflop, which would be much cheaper. It is pretty much that way through most of computing. It is cheaper to have 2 decent video cards running in sync rather than 1 super video card. And now we are going the other way? It makes sense on one level, since almost no one's computer is running at 100% CPU usage 24 hours a day, and it is actually a great idea for business and productivity software, where you are only processing data periodically, and the majority of the time, you are staring at static output. But most modern games use computers nearly at capacity, and constantly while they are being run. Add that on to the fact that you need large computers to do the work of many small computers (which means steadily increasing cost per flop), and I just don't see where the benefit of this is.

I am assuming this is another hyped trend in computing that will come out, live for a bit and then die a cold death. Just because we [I]can[/I] do something doesn't mean we should. Kind of like ordering your groceries on the internet around 1998 :-P It just didn't end up how they thought it would.

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I just don't think this will do it for me as long as they can't deliver really hq graphics and sound. Just like I don't enjoy 64kbps MP3s or crappy pirated movies I don't want to play games with low visual quality... and pay for that.

But I don't see the "classical" way of playing computer games harmed, so... who cares. Can't wait to see this service in action under real-world conditions, actually .

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Original post by Madhed
I just don't think this will do it for me as long as they can't deliver really hq graphics and sound. Just like I don't enjoy 64kbps MP3s or crappy pirated movies I don't want to play games with low visual quality... and pay for that.


You are not primary audience.

People like to point that WoW is a huge success. Yet there are FaceBook games which have tens of millions of users. Let alone outside of there. I think Audition broken 50 million years ago in China alone.

Crysis-like ultra resolution is a tiny tiny niche. At least as far as publishers go, and they need to worry about money.

Second is the demographic that console makers are targeting. A bunch of friends, hanging out on weekend night, instead of going to the movies, they rent a game. To play once, for two hours, and never again. On their TV. No download, no installation, no setup, just click on the icon and you are in. Imagine a service like this for $15 a month. What is the price of a movie + popcorn + driving there?

Obviously, playing WoW this way is somewhat pointless. But that is not primary target demographic.

Personally, I'd be very happy if I had the ability to play latest hits, when they launch (not wait X weeks till they are made available for whichever regional marketing reason), without the need to buy exclusive console it runs on, without the hassles of installing on PC (console ports are a disaster in this respect), etc....

Because incredibly good chances are that Game - The Sequel Part 4 IX will simply not hold my interest for more than an hour, and paying 60-something for that is too much.

Most people do not get all achievements, most don't even finish the campaign or equivalent, or replay on different difficulty, or do much at all.

As for quality - youtube (and others) didn't succeed because it offered 1080p Dolby surround experience. I mean, 400x300 video was said to be a dead end as well in the 90s, caricatured everywhere as tiny window in a huge screen. Yet apparently, it's not about fidelity alone. Same story with Blu-ray and similar. The only advantage DVDs offered over VHS was not video quality - it was removal of rewinding.

And historically, accessibility trumped technical quality just about everywhere.

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