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[java] MS to eliminate Java from XP

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ZDNet article The hardcore java fanatics at Javalobby seem to think this is the best thing that could happen to java as everyone will be required to dl a plugin java2 jre. The trolls over at slashdot seem to think this is step 2 in the inevitable destruction of java via C#. I personally think it will depend on how good the first realse of C# actually turns out to be. If it is crap ms will have one hell of a hole to dig itself out of. The fanatic is incorruptible: if he kills for an idea, he can just as well get himself killed for one; in either case, tyrant or martyr, he is a monster. --EM Cioran Opere Citato

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Java sucks. Unfortunately, C# is just Java with a new name.

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I wouldn''t worry too much about MS getting rid of the JRE. For one, most people access Java through the web and if the site is properly setup, the user will be prompted to download the plug-in.

Also, with the release of WebStart, even Java Applications will detect the JRE and update/replace if necessary.

It will however be interesting to see how C# does in the market.

borngamer

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I see this as a blessing, we can finally start using Java2 on the web with the plugin. M$''s VM was sorly lagging behind in terms of support for the past 2-3 years.

It was fast, but incomplete.

C''m on C# is a new name for "Network Exploit". They could not even make their Scripting languages secure (VB) over the net let alone binary''s like activex and those.

I''m just waiting for someone to write a trojan that goes around and deletes XP''s keyfile from as many servers at it can. Can you just imagine the outrage when nobody can use their computer because Symatec''s .net component was exploited and deleted their key file.

The possibilities are limitless.

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If you read the back end of the ZDNet article it mentions that Java is now considered a security risk on par with word macro''s and activex scripts. I have never known anyone who have had a Java virus or even heard of anyone who knew someone who got one. It''s a wonder these guys can talk with a straight face.

The fanatic is incorruptible: if he kills for an idea, he can just as well get himself killed for one; in either case, tyrant or martyr, he is a monster.
--EM Cioran

Opere Citato

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Well, I''ve heard of ONE java virus... It had an interesting distribution technology. Ironically, it was only successful because of how j++ packaged .class files in .cab files, rather than .jar files.

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I''ve seen a Java virus as well. It pops up a dialog box saying,

''Do you want to full grant access to the program: "Java Virus"?''

yeah right...

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C++ is dying in business development so its either C# or Java - at least in the business world. Both have good advantages, IMHO. I think people often under estimate MS. They may be evil (especially lately) but a great deal of their software is really pretty good. They know they have a lot riding on C# and they also know they have a lot of programmers are dying to get away from the dated idiosyncrasies of MFC. I''m betting C# will be pretty good.

However, UNIX is not going anywhere. NT is no where close to the raw power and stability of UNIX and this is where Java will continue to thrive. Hopefully it can maintain a strong presence on NT as well. Personally, while most of the time you do not port your code I do like keeping my platform doors open, so to speak.

Sieggy

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Well said, that man.

UNIX isn''t going anywhere, but that''s only for now... I personally don''t think that proprietary UNIX systems will last that much longer (at least I don''t think people will buy them anymore, they''ll still be out there as legacy systems)

Especially these days with those cool Unisys ES7000 servers (32-way Intel machines) they give you comparable performance to most UNIX systems at a very small fraction of the cost. And because they''re Intel, you''re free to choose between OEMs for your hardware and support (DEC, HP, Compac and a few others have already signed up to retail ES7000 systems). Plus they''re easily upgradable. They already support IA64 processors (you can even mix-and-match IA32 and IA64 processors in one box!).

These systems run Windows 2000 Datacenter Server, HP/UX and one other OS (which I can''t remember) so not only can you choose your OEM, but you can also choose your OS. The days of proprietary UNIX systems are numbered!

Anyway, I''m not sure what this has to do with the lack of Java in XP, just a general rant


War Worlds - A 3D Real-Time Strategy game in development.

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UNIX is only continuing to flourish. Most people don''t even realize that Apple has switched to BSD services for OS X. The entire FreeBSD posts collection now runs ( unmoddified ) under mac OS X. Oh, but wait, many third world countries are turning to the free UNIX clones to prevent an ever widining technology gap, they can run a linux or BSD varient without licencing hedaches on several year old systems an still get decent perfomance.

Many leading vendors recognise the power and performace of these free UNIX varients. Many vendors that have their own UNIX even are supporting free UNIX.

And even if w2k datacenter was the most stable windows out there it still does not campare to the stability and support of UNIX. And remeber that UNIX can do more with less harware and fewer admins. And if you don''t believe me do a survey of how many windows admins would run a busy mail server and a web server on the same computer... that''s what I thought.

C# will be another huge embarisment to M$ in terms of product relability. It will further push windows down into a security nightmare that only contimues to get worse with every new technology that microsoft produces. And locking java code out of Outlook was just petty and stupid, just as blue mtn cards did Sun should sue for locking out their technology as spam.

windows xp and internet explorer 6 will still be able to download and install M$ JVM 1.1.4 POS so I double that this will affect anyone, I just hope that many people opt for the plugin, as it''s a better long term solution.

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I''m not talking about the free unices (which are more "unix-like" than anything), I''m talking about proprietary UNIX systems (e.g. Sparcs running Solaris, or whatever). These systems cost 5-10X more than a comparable Intel machine, and offer very little more in terms of security or stability*. It''s these types of systems that are at the end of their days.

Linux and free BSD variants have very little to do with enterprise applications, since no company in it''s right mind would trust it''s mission critical apps to an OS that doesn''t have a specific support centre (though admitadly, there''s people like Redhat supporting Linux, but they''re just not in the same league as Microsoft, Sun, HP, DEC, et al...)

* People who say Windows is not secure or stable, simply don''t know how to admin a windows box.


War Worlds - A 3D Real-Time Strategy game in development.

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I've done both Windows and UNIX dev. If you want raw power, stability, and true multiprocessing/protection UNIX delivers. The boxes, never, and I do mean never, go down. They don't crash and your code screams. True, they are expensive and they don't shine in areas such as UI presentation like Windows but that's not what you use them for. The other thing, while Intel is improving, they are still way behind in processor technology since their long term marriage to the x86 and all its issues.

Point being, from my humble experience, if you want the most stable, fastest, and secure environment for an enterprise app UNIX is the only way to go. Now, I'm not saying NT is terrible because its not - it simply has different strengths.

However, I do agree about the LINUX systems. As far as wide acceptence goes that fact that they are open source and don't have the support network companies demand is really going to hurt them. Great OS but its going to be mighty tough for them to solve the world's OS problems.

Edited by - Sieggy on July 24, 2001 7:27:05 AM

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quote:
Original post by Dean Harding
Linux and free BSD variants have very little to do with enterprise applications, since no company in it''s right mind would trust it''s mission critical apps to an OS that doesn''t have a specific support centre (though admitadly, there''s people like Redhat supporting Linux, but they''re just not in the same league as Microsoft, Sun, HP, DEC, et al...)



Funny you should put it that way. Then why does M$ run FreeBSD? Why do Sun, IBM, and HP support linux on their enterprise hardware. Does Yahoo not sound like an enterprise application? What about Hotmail? IBM is running million dollar ad campagns pushing DB2 under linux. Many experienced people have gone the road less traveled with free UNIX and have come out shining.

Propriatary UNIX is still alive and well in the larger orginizations. Windows NT/2k are making headway in departimental serving, but nothing compares cycle per cycle to UNIX box. Hands down they will win in pure IO and network applications anyday of the week. And scalibility means nothing is you are not 100% secure and 100% stable. That''s why IBM makes a killing on their mainframes they run a propritory OS that''s even more scaliable and stable than UNIX ( they run UNIX as a process not an OS ).


I''m not an OS basher, but I would never call the demise of UNIX. It will more than likley outlive me, I know my UNIX systems that I use ( barring hardware failure would ).

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Seeing as how we''re now completely offtopic, I thought I''d join in. An interesting article.

I think that''s what Dean Harding was referring to.
Now obviously, this isn''t Complete Proof That Windows Is Better Than UNIX, but I think it''s at least an indication that Windows can be somewhat fast, reliable, and scalable.


~~~~~~~~~~
Martee

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I may be off-base, but I think I saw an article about this on betanews.com. It clarified the "No Java in XP" announcement, saying that XP will not SHIP with Java, but there will be a downloadable virtual machine on the Windows Update site. It had something to do with Sun and MS''s various lawsuits over Java, somehow not shipping with Java made XP more acceptable to Sun and they dropped the suits or something. Again, I might be wrong, but I''m pretty sure this is the deal. So love it or hate it, it sounds like Windows will still have a VM available.

Anthracks

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It may be possible to plug in a jvm but if ms makes it difficult to install one, for an average user as Kodak recently complained with their photo editing software, it could be trouble. I can''t remember where I read it but someone said they couldn''t install a jvm on a xp rc. Sun said they never had any problems though. I think sun needs to make some utility that installs a jvm with the touch of a web browser button. As anyone out there who has done any tech support know, it has to be easy enough for a dead monkey to do or people will screw it up.

The fanatic is incorruptible: if he kills for an idea, he can just as well get himself killed for one; in either case, tyrant or martyr, he is a monster.
--EM Cioran

Opere Citato

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For companies building enterprise apps and technically savy users getting the jvm should be no big deal. Its Joe Six pack that almost certainly won''t take the time to download and install the jvm that is the larger concern.

Not to beat it to death, but as far as UNIX goes Snowmoon is right. Stats and studies only take you so far and then there is the real world. I love my NT set - I beat it to death and it keeps on trucking but it still does not compare to a UNIX machine when it comes to speed and stability. Anyone can bring an NT machine to its knees if you try hard enough. You have to try a HECK of a lot harder to do the same in UNIX - if you even can.

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