Wow. A lot of good ideas in here. However, what is the need to create a set of exterior penalties or rewards for proper role playing? Why not play things within the constraints of the story and enviroment?
Let''s run with the Paladin a little more. If your player chooses to join the White Order of Paladins, they''ve then agreed to the constraints and code of behavior of the White Order of Paladins. So if they go around and slaughter villagers, eventually news will reach home. Needless to say that the White Order will be pissed off, and investigate. If the player is found guilty, strip the player of any abilities and ranks or titles, and possibly kill or imprision them.
Let''s say the player survives and escapes. All people who look up to the White Order will hate the player for their actions, and betrail. All who feared the order will keep the player at a distance, though their name might attract a few people who want to pick a fight with the White Order.
So how to deal with the issue of save/reloading? Things don''t happen right away. Sure, they slaughter a village full of innocents, and maybe their Paladin abilities get a slight degredataion (the start of a much longer slide), but after a few missions, word starts getting around. Things start going bad. Lots more options start opening up. To try to expierence the variations on actions would take a much longer timespan than just the slaughter of the village.
Immersion: the Player vs the Character
Freedom vs. Internal consistency
Hmmm, where to begin? Well, I look at it like this. Why do people play RPG''s? I think because they want to be able to explore a reality unlike our own; the chance to be someone else, and perhaps more importantly, do things we can''t normally do. Players want to have a backdrop for their characters that is absorbing but they need to feel like they have the freedom to act as they please. Their actions determine the consequences of the final outcome. Most players don''t want to be consciously aware that their actions are being forced down a certain path.
Unfortunately, this is antagonistic to dramatic storytelling. One of dramatic storytelling''s key principles is pacing. If the characters are at the helm, who knows where they will head and how long it may take them to get there? More importantly, a good story has direction, with foreshadowing dropping hints as to what''s to come. AGain, if the players are free to do WHATEVER they want, where''s the direction? Another critical miss is that a story is structured with a beginning a middle and an end. Sounds stupid, but it''s amazing how many people forget that simple fact. Finally, a good story has a purpose that the plot leads up to. The protagonists actions had some kind of effect or ovreall purpose to convey to the viewer.
Again, if the characters are free to do as they please, I don''t think it''s as effective storytelling as possible. So what''s a gamer to do? Just watch movies? Not at all. I think the key here is players have TOTAL freedom. In PPRPG (Paper&Pen RPG''s) the GM acts as a moderator and someone who can guide the players along. He can foreshadow events, drop hints to make sure the players are going in the right direction, and like a good director, ensure good pacing. The best GM''s do this without the players realizing that he is goading them into a particular storyline.
With the way RPG''s are done today, there''s no moderator to guide the story or character development along. And that brings up whole nother can of worms. Frankly, I don''t think that character development is in increasing your stats, or gaining power, wealth or prestige. For me, character development is about watching the universe unfold, and being better able to experience even more grand stories. As I am so fond of doing, I shall relate yet another martial pearl of wisdom
Once, there was a young man desperately wanted to be great in martial arts so he asked a Master how long it would take him to become a Master just like him. The Master replied "with hard work, 10 years". The student couldn''t believe it, so he said that he would work twice as hard as anyone else. "In that case, it will take 20years". The student couldn''t believe it, so the student said he would practice day and night and eat only a meal a day to further his training. "Then in 30 years you will become a Master". Finally the student could contain himself no longer.."Master, everytime I say I will work harder, you say it will take longer to become a Master....why?". TO which the MAster replied, "if one eye is looking at the prize, you only have one eye left to practice with".
I think people are so caught up with some sort of instant gratification or material gratification, that we forget that it''s really the EXPERIENCE that counts...the actual doing. As another saying goes, "getting there is half the fun". So this is yet another area of CRPG''s that need work on. I just laught when people go on "quests" simply to make their characters more powerful. That''s fun to a lot of people?? Frankly, I don''t think we are ready yet for single-player CRPG''s. PPRPG''s are the best of both worlds...it allows spontaneity and creativity along with the guidance of good storytelling. To be very honest, I''m not very fond of CRPG''s because I think that not only do they not come anywhere near as close to being as fun as PPRPG''s, I think there''s something about being with a group of people that''s far more fun.
Hmmm, where to begin? Well, I look at it like this. Why do people play RPG''s? I think because they want to be able to explore a reality unlike our own; the chance to be someone else, and perhaps more importantly, do things we can''t normally do. Players want to have a backdrop for their characters that is absorbing but they need to feel like they have the freedom to act as they please. Their actions determine the consequences of the final outcome. Most players don''t want to be consciously aware that their actions are being forced down a certain path.
Unfortunately, this is antagonistic to dramatic storytelling. One of dramatic storytelling''s key principles is pacing. If the characters are at the helm, who knows where they will head and how long it may take them to get there? More importantly, a good story has direction, with foreshadowing dropping hints as to what''s to come. AGain, if the players are free to do WHATEVER they want, where''s the direction? Another critical miss is that a story is structured with a beginning a middle and an end. Sounds stupid, but it''s amazing how many people forget that simple fact. Finally, a good story has a purpose that the plot leads up to. The protagonists actions had some kind of effect or ovreall purpose to convey to the viewer.
Again, if the characters are free to do as they please, I don''t think it''s as effective storytelling as possible. So what''s a gamer to do? Just watch movies? Not at all. I think the key here is players have TOTAL freedom. In PPRPG (Paper&Pen RPG''s) the GM acts as a moderator and someone who can guide the players along. He can foreshadow events, drop hints to make sure the players are going in the right direction, and like a good director, ensure good pacing. The best GM''s do this without the players realizing that he is goading them into a particular storyline.
With the way RPG''s are done today, there''s no moderator to guide the story or character development along. And that brings up whole nother can of worms. Frankly, I don''t think that character development is in increasing your stats, or gaining power, wealth or prestige. For me, character development is about watching the universe unfold, and being better able to experience even more grand stories. As I am so fond of doing, I shall relate yet another martial pearl of wisdom
Once, there was a young man desperately wanted to be great in martial arts so he asked a Master how long it would take him to become a Master just like him. The Master replied "with hard work, 10 years". The student couldn''t believe it, so he said that he would work twice as hard as anyone else. "In that case, it will take 20years". The student couldn''t believe it, so the student said he would practice day and night and eat only a meal a day to further his training. "Then in 30 years you will become a Master". Finally the student could contain himself no longer.."Master, everytime I say I will work harder, you say it will take longer to become a Master....why?". TO which the MAster replied, "if one eye is looking at the prize, you only have one eye left to practice with".
I think people are so caught up with some sort of instant gratification or material gratification, that we forget that it''s really the EXPERIENCE that counts...the actual doing. As another saying goes, "getting there is half the fun". So this is yet another area of CRPG''s that need work on. I just laught when people go on "quests" simply to make their characters more powerful. That''s fun to a lot of people?? Frankly, I don''t think we are ready yet for single-player CRPG''s. PPRPG''s are the best of both worlds...it allows spontaneity and creativity along with the guidance of good storytelling. To be very honest, I''m not very fond of CRPG''s because I think that not only do they not come anywhere near as close to being as fun as PPRPG''s, I think there''s something about being with a group of people that''s far more fun.
quote:Original post by Dauntless
I think people are so caught up with some sort of instant gratification or material gratification, that we forget that it''s really the EXPERIENCE that counts...the actual doing.
EXACTLY, I couldn''t agree with you more. This applies to all genres, not just RPGs. In a lot of games, players are far more interested in maxing everything out then they are in actually playing the game and enjoying it. I believe that a good design can encourage experience more then gratification, it''s just that the experience needs to be more interested then the "I beat it\them" feeling.
There's obviously TWO types of persons here.
The PPRPG's and the CRPG's... I can hardly believe it when the PPRPG's go "the CRPG's don't know what they're missing. They must be stupid. Material gaining is boring. Pen and Paper rules. blablabla!!" That's _your_ opinion. The CRPG's and other might like maxing out resources, I know I do! I think of StarCraft. I don't think StarCraft would be better without the resource handling, it would suck without it... And it is by far one of the most intreging storys I've ever seen in a non-RPG.
If a person really likes PPRPG's, then they'll play it. The others play CRPG's! I know you're trying to implement "the best of both worlds". But saying how wrong a person is because they don't think like you... "material gaining is stupid", that's just annoys me
The "experience" or "gameplay" is veeery important! I agree!
Hasn't anyone played FF?? _That's_ a linear story... Diablo, _that's_ also an linear story. FF, you have the random encounters where you pic up your weapon and fight. Diablo, in the town you have your sword in a holster. You could have it like that.
Here are some plans for the RPG I'm writing:
An "aggresion" meter. Unless you encounter someone with "aggresion against you" your weapon is hulstered. Like the good little Paladin you are
The "agression meter" could be different for different players.
¤An Paladin, it would be more of an "evil meter". Someone comitting an act of evil like murder, that's when your swords jumps up! If you try to attack someone else while the sword is up -> "but he has not done anything wrong".
¤An evil clan Ogre, a townsman standing in your way has medium "aggresion meter". Maybe enough for you to eat his head..?
Just adjust the fight engine not to be entirly like BG and a little more like FF. Like I'm planing. It will be a mix. When you enter the "zone" of an "aggresive" person that person would activate your "fight meny". You can run away by runing away from the persons zone, and continuing running because he will follow for a while. When in "fight" mode you can only attack the "aggresive player". Maybe... hmmm... make all other NPCs on screen "flee in panic"??
Well that was just a suggestion for not making it possible for an good player to become bad... But there are many other things, like stealing, etc... A paladin would have difficulty stealing with his armor *cackling'ing* all the time Any suggestions, excep "but that would be wrong"? The penalty from the "White order of paladins" was a good suggestion! =D
EDIT - restructured the text
}+TITANIUM+{
Edited by - Seriema on July 24, 2001 4:23:34 AM
The PPRPG's and the CRPG's... I can hardly believe it when the PPRPG's go "the CRPG's don't know what they're missing. They must be stupid. Material gaining is boring. Pen and Paper rules. blablabla!!" That's _your_ opinion. The CRPG's and other might like maxing out resources, I know I do! I think of StarCraft. I don't think StarCraft would be better without the resource handling, it would suck without it... And it is by far one of the most intreging storys I've ever seen in a non-RPG.
If a person really likes PPRPG's, then they'll play it. The others play CRPG's! I know you're trying to implement "the best of both worlds". But saying how wrong a person is because they don't think like you... "material gaining is stupid", that's just annoys me
The "experience" or "gameplay" is veeery important! I agree!
Hasn't anyone played FF?? _That's_ a linear story... Diablo, _that's_ also an linear story. FF, you have the random encounters where you pic up your weapon and fight. Diablo, in the town you have your sword in a holster. You could have it like that.
Here are some plans for the RPG I'm writing:
An "aggresion" meter. Unless you encounter someone with "aggresion against you" your weapon is hulstered. Like the good little Paladin you are
The "agression meter" could be different for different players.¤An Paladin, it would be more of an "evil meter". Someone comitting an act of evil like murder, that's when your swords jumps up! If you try to attack someone else while the sword is up -> "but he has not done anything wrong".
¤An evil clan Ogre, a townsman standing in your way has medium "aggresion meter". Maybe enough for you to eat his head..?
Just adjust the fight engine not to be entirly like BG and a little more like FF. Like I'm planing. It will be a mix. When you enter the "zone" of an "aggresive" person that person would activate your "fight meny". You can run away by runing away from the persons zone, and continuing running because he will follow for a while. When in "fight" mode you can only attack the "aggresive player". Maybe... hmmm... make all other NPCs on screen "flee in panic"??
Well that was just a suggestion for not making it possible for an good player to become bad... But there are many other things, like stealing, etc... A paladin would have difficulty stealing with his armor *cackling'ing* all the time
Any suggestions, excep "but that would be wrong"? The penalty from the "White order of paladins" was a good suggestion! =D EDIT - restructured the text
}+TITANIUM+{
Edited by - Seriema on July 24, 2001 4:23:34 AM
Sorry, but it does bother me when I see players play mostly for the sake of material gratification or increasing their resources. The key here is to what extnet it motivates their wanting to play the game, as it IS important to increase your physical.material standings to go on even more grand adventures. Is it WRONG for players to want to play that way? No, but it really isn''t my cup of tea at all.
So, I have no interest to play with other players like that. And to be honest, it''s a reason that I didn''t enjoy games like Starcraft...primarily for the same reason. Gameplay became less about being absorbed in the world, and more about being "powerful".
It''s a mindset that just does not appeal to me, and I don''t wish to play around people who want that style of gaming. If that''s your bag of tea, then you''re more than welcome to it But I think that most game developers are making games that encourage this style of gaming, and not enough designers thinking up of ways to encourage my preferred style of gaming which concetrates more on ROLE, and less on ROLL.
So, I have no interest to play with other players like that. And to be honest, it''s a reason that I didn''t enjoy games like Starcraft...primarily for the same reason. Gameplay became less about being absorbed in the world, and more about being "powerful".
It''s a mindset that just does not appeal to me, and I don''t wish to play around people who want that style of gaming. If that''s your bag of tea, then you''re more than welcome to it
But I think that most game developers are making games that encourage this style of gaming, and not enough designers thinking up of ways to encourage my preferred style of gaming which concetrates more on ROLE, and less on ROLL.
Aim your game at all flavors of players. Dauntless sounds like a "Spade". Seriema may be a "Diamond". (I straddle "Heart" and "Spade"...)
See Players who suit MUDS - http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm
and NO it is not just about MUDs...
Dash Zero
Credits: Fast Attack - Software Sorcery - Published by Sierra 1996
See Players who suit MUDS - http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm
and NO it is not just about MUDs...
Dash Zero
Credits: Fast Attack - Software Sorcery - Published by Sierra 1996
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