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[UFEC] Element: Evolution discussion thread.

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Quote:
Evolution definition: A process by which something passes by degrees to a different (most often more advanced) stage.
If the process can be reversed or lost either though a time limit, dying, taking damage, or other means does it still count as evolution? For example would Mario getting a mushroom that makes him grow taller be a form of evolution if he looses it when hit? [Edited by - Gametaku on October 30, 2009 6:48:21 PM]

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I think its all up to the developer to show how he/she incorporates the elements. In the end, if the judges think it is not clear enough, that will show up in your scores. So at least be advised that judging will probably look into how well elements are implemented. If they are hard to find or understand you might get a lower score.

Personally I would be glad to see some creative use of elements, if it is clear what the developer means (without having to read it in the manual ;)).

I can't come up with an example right now... but in the ends it just up to you. If you think its a bit unclear the judges will probably also find it unclear.

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I guess that could qualify as an evolution. Though it would probably not score much points.

Some examples:

Pokemon evolution is an irreversible change of a Pokemon's physiology. He gets new moves, new capabilities, new name. The new stage is different from the old one. The stage of a Pokemon has a pretty big impact on battle results, for example. Evolution is a principal mechanic in both the anime and the game and would probably score high. Even this can be reversed, for example, by the means o Hyper Devolution Spray, but still qualifies as evolution.

Digimon digivolution is only a temporary boost in power and capablities of a Digimon. However, the Digimon is still very different from his previous stage and the stage of a Digimon affects reality. Digivolution is reversed automatically after minutes and still counts as evolution.

Mario's "evolution" is also a temporary boost in power but the Mario retains his personality, status and most of his properties in both stages of evolution. This "evolution" does not change him much. Also, ask this question: "If this evolution was taken from the game, would the game still work very well?" I think it would because you could replace the growth with a force field, for example.

So, consider this:
If you removed [-insert element here-] from the game, would the game still work (be fun)?
If you answer "YES", you get few points.
If you answer "NO",you get many points.
In order not to be disqualified, Mario's evolution should be sufficient.

But evolution is not restricted on growing! Think Natural Evolution, think Character Evolution, think whatever you want! As TheFlyingDutchman said, be creative.

(If you disagree with what I say in this post, say it. We may yet change the judging criteria for elements acceptation.)

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There seems to be 4 types of fire-extinguishers each for a different type of fire.

Quote:

* Class A extinguishers are for ordinary combustible materials such as paper, wood, cardboard, and most plastics. The numerical rating on these types of extinguishers indicates the amount of water it holds and the amount of fire it can extinguish.
* Class B fires involve flammable or combustible liquids such as gasoline, kerosene, grease and oil. The numerical rating for class B extinguishers indicates the approximate number of square feet of fire it can extinguish.
* Class C fires involve electrical equipment, such as appliances, wiring, circuit breakers and outlets. Never use water to extinguish class C fires - the risk of electrical shock is far too great! Class C extinguishers do not have a numerical rating. The C classification means the extinguishing agent is non-conductive.
* Class D fire extinguishers are commonly found in a chemical laboratory. They are for fires that involve combustible metals, such as magnesium, titanium, potassium and sodium. These types of extinguishers also have no numerical rating, nor are they given a multi-purpose rating - they are designed for class D fires only.

####
You might have an evolutionary battle.
You are a fireman going to put a fire turns out the fire is a living flame (Sliders episode with the living flame).

Now you start off the a big heavy water tank. The tank can carry alot of water but means you move quite slowly.

The problem is the flame evolves to become "faster". You need a smaller tank to be able to keep up, the problem it doesnt carry as much liquid.

Later on the flame can "upgrade again" where your water tank no longer works. So you need to get a different extinguisher.

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Quote:
Original post by Lesan
I guess that could qualify as an evolution. Though it would probably not score much points.

Some examples:

Pokemon evolution is an irreversible change of a Pokemon's physiology. He gets new moves, new capabilities, new name. The new stage is different from the old one. The stage of a Pokemon has a pretty big impact on battle results, for example. Evolution is a principal mechanic in both the anime and the game and would probably score high. Even this can be reversed, for example, by the means o Hyper Devolution Spray, but still qualifies as evolution.

Digimon digivolution is only a temporary boost in power and capablities of a Digimon. However, the Digimon is still very different from his previous stage and the stage of a Digimon affects reality. Digivolution is reversed automatically after minutes and still counts as evolution.

Mario's "evolution" is also a temporary boost in power but the Mario retains his personality, status and most of his properties in both stages of evolution. This "evolution" does not change him much. Also, ask this question: "If this evolution was taken from the game, would the game still work very well?" I think it would because you could replace the growth with a force field, for example.

So, consider this:
If you removed [-insert element here-] from the game, would the game still work (be fun)?
If you answer "YES", you get few points.
If you answer "NO",you get many points.
In order not to be disqualified, Mario's evolution should be sufficient.

But evolution is not restricted on growing! Think Natural Evolution, think Character Evolution, think whatever you want! As TheFlyingDutchman said, be creative.

(If you disagree with what I say in this post, say it. We may yet change the judging criteria for elements acceptation.)


That sounds fairly good. However in theory any types of gained abilities or moves could be represented with a device of some sort and in a game it is the abilities and moves that are the most accessible to a player. Name changes and changing apprentice changes mean little in them selves. For example Mario could evolve into a blue hedgehog and be renamed Sonic but changed no game play and as a player I would be at best thinking this is odd. However if now Sonic (formally Mario) could move really fast then as a player I could experience the game play effects of extra speed, despite the fact that Mario could gain a pair of rocket shoes and produce the same game play effect.



[Edited by - Gametaku on October 31, 2009 12:36:34 AM]

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What about x-men?
In the movie/comics most of the heroes have had their special abilities since they were teenagers,so they don't actually evolve during the storyline.
However,the evolution there is a key element,and the movie won't work at all without it.

So if I were to create a game where evolution is important to the story,and also provides the player with some abilities,according to the rule Lesan posted,it should score a lot of points,right?

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X-Men:

The heroes, yes, gained their special abilities through evolution (or mutation). So, this evolution is part of the storyline. However, it does not really affect gameplay. The gameplay is affected only by the fact that the heroes have superpowers. If evolution was omitted and replaced, for example, by exposure to some weird radiation or by implementing some electronic device in the heroes, the gameplay wouldn't have changed at all.
And does this evolution affect storyline during the game? Do the heroes, for example, try to find a way how to artificially reproduce this evolution, do they try to de-evolve themselves to their non-super forms, do they discuss the source of this evolution?
If yes, it affects storyline. If not, it affects only the background, the setting, which is sufficient to avoid disqualification but not to gain lots of points.

I'll give some examples on how would I score elements in various games in the past:
Mop of Destiny
(Europe = small points, Emblem = small to medium points, Emotion = small points, Economy = many points)
The Boomlands
(Europe = small points, Emblem = small points, Emotion = small points (though it could be increased if the emotion affected the game's result more), Economy = many points)

Well, most of the games in previous contests would score pretty badly on significant presence. Saying "It is situated in Europe, you have this emblem, instead of life, you feel fear and you can buy stuff" is usually how it went.
If instead it would be "You are a time traveller and you visit ancient Europe in a quest to prevent the Hundred-Years-War. Along with you, a number of friendly agents have been chronoteleported to the past and you can identify them only using the common Emblem, because they may be posing as farmers, smiths, warriors. Whenever you see the Emblem, you see a friend. You finally get to one of the major kings in the conflict and you learn his wife and daughter had just died and the monarch continuously weeps. In the next part of the game, you have to do all sorts of stuff to make him smile again and listen to you. When the war is finally ending, an economic crisis comes up and starvation begins. It is up to you to discover the cause of this failure of Economy and then, quest completed, return back to present day," it could score more points. But that is very difficult.

If the element affects the story also DURING the game and not only as a BACKGROUND SETTING, it will score points. If it, additionally, affects gameplay, it will score even more. If the game did not work without it, it gets more. And if you can think of no way how to replace the element with something else, it gets 10.

In the game Prevolution (see "UFEC game concepts"), for example, Proliferation would get many points since without it, the game would lose the point.

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Quote:
Original post by Lesan
consider this:
If you removed [-insert element here-] from the game, would the game still work (be fun)?
If you answer "YES", you get few points.
If you answer "NO",you get many points.
Not sure of this. Can you think of any cases where one couldn't simply replace 'water' with one of 'oil', 'acid' or 'green gunk', without affecting gameplay?

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Would a weapon upgrade system satisfy the evolution component.

For example you get an upgrade to do double damage, another to "reload quicker", etc.

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Quote:
Not sure of this. Can you think of any cases where one couldn't simply replace 'water' with one of 'oil', 'acid' or 'green gunk', without affecting gameplay?


True. But shouldn't entries that don't allow this get some benefit? Using water as an obstacle element is quite common (I encountered it first in Commander Keen, for example) but there are other uses for Water. One: Underwater setting. Some organisms simply cannot live elsewhere. Two: Putting out fire. Acid, oil nor green gunk won't work as well...

Quote:

Would a weapon upgrade system satisfy the evolution component.

For example you get an upgrade to do double damage, another to "reload quicker", etc.

Well, the hero evolves. He becomes more powerful. If only his weapons are upgraded, that the weapons evolve. Though if he only gets new weapons instead of upgrading the old ones, what does evolve? The hero as "man plus weapons" which is also, strictly, an evolution.

So yes, though I, personally, would still give more points to a full (for example, body-scale) evolution.

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