Quote:Iraq Swears by Bomb Detector U.S. Sees as Useless - New York Times BAGHDAD — Despite major bombings that have rattled the nation, and fears of rising violence as American troops withdraw, Iraq’s security forces have been relying on a device to detect bombs and weapons that the United States military and technical experts say is useless. The small hand-held wand, with a telescopic antenna on a swivel, is being used at hundreds of checkpoints in Iraq. But the device works “on the same principle as a Ouija board” — the power of suggestion — said a retired United States Air Force officer, Lt. Col. Hal Bidlack, who described the wand as nothing more than an explosives divining rod. ... ATSC’s promotional material claims that its device can find guns, ammunition, drugs, truffles, human bodies and even contraband ivory at distances up to a kilometer, underground, through walls, underwater or even from airplanes three miles high. The device works on “electrostatic magnetic ion attraction,” ATSC says. ... To detect materials, the operator puts an array of plastic-coated cardboard cards with bar codes into a holder connected to the wand by a cable. “It would be laughable,” Colonel Bidlack said, “except someone down the street from you is counting on this to keep bombs off the streets.” ... Then the operator must walk in place a few moments to “charge” the device, since it has no battery or other power source, and walk with the wand at right angles to the body. If there are explosives or drugs to the operator’s left, the wand is supposed to swivel to the operator’s left and point at them.I don't know about you, but I'm pretty flabbergasted. I find it absolutely mind blowing that people would actually believe in these things, pay money for them, and trust other people's lives to them. Has anyone here served in Iraq, and be able to verify that this story is actually legit? Have you guys heard about this already?
What the...?!
Author
Ok, a co-worker just sent me a link to this story:
Iraq Swears by Bomb Detector U.S. Sees as Useless
Wow. For anyone who can't access the link or is too lazy to click it, here's an excerpt:
It is called fear fighting, and humans are stupid. (I should trade mark "Humans are stupid" or something, I've been using it a lot to explain things.)
People are stupid and scared, and they want to see that someone is doing something to help protect them and keep things safe. Similar to the placebo effect. People will feel safer if they see armed guards at check points 'searching' for the things that might kill them, and feel even better when some cool new magical technology 'makes searching even better'.
Yes it is a sick and twisted thing to sell the device to people for the sole purpose of making some quick cash, but that is what you get from Capitalist Pigs.
People are stupid and scared, and they want to see that someone is doing something to help protect them and keep things safe. Similar to the placebo effect. People will feel safer if they see armed guards at check points 'searching' for the things that might kill them, and feel even better when some cool new magical technology 'makes searching even better'.
Yes it is a sick and twisted thing to sell the device to people for the sole purpose of making some quick cash, but that is what you get from Capitalist Pigs.
Quote:Original post by MoeFor any hard problem, there is always someone there to cash in with an "easy" answer.
I find it absolutely mind blowing that people would actually believe in these things, pay money for them, and trust other people's lives to them.
There is nothing too outlandish that SOMEONE out there won't buy it and swear it works.
Foot pads that suck disease out. Psychic surgery. Immortality rings. Special massages that cures diseases before they are detectable by modern medicine. Special LEDs that cure cancer. Magnetic shoes that promote health. There is no end to this list.
Quote:Original post by Binomine
Foot pads that suck disease out. Psychic surgery. Immortality rings. Special massages that cures diseases before they are detectable by modern medicine. Special LEDs that cure cancer. Magnetic shoes that promote health. There is no end to this list.
Yeah, but this story is about a countries armed forces using such a BS device. That's quite a difference here. Using a placebo instead of an actual bomb detector can put many peoples lives at risk. Even not using anything at all is better than such a placebo. The latter will give people a false sense of security ("see, we can detect a bomb from an airplane three miles high !"), instead of sensitizing them on handling and avoiding dangerous situations.
So yeah, if the general population believes these things, well, whatever. But if the armed forces do, then there is a serious problem.
Quote:Original post by Yann LQuote:Original post by Binomine
Foot pads that suck disease out. Psychic surgery. Immortality rings. Special massages that cures diseases before they are detectable by modern medicine. Special LEDs that cure cancer. Magnetic shoes that promote health. There is no end to this list.
Yeah, but this story is about a countries armed forces using such a BS device. That's quite a difference here. Using a placebo instead of an actual bomb detector can put many peoples lives at risk. Even not using anything at all is better than such a placebo. The latter will give people a false sense of security ("see, we can detect a bomb from an airplane three miles high !"), instead of sensitizing them on handling and avoiding dangerous situations.
So yeah, if the general population believes these things, well, whatever. But if the armed forces do, then there is a serious problem.
Do the terrorist/freedom fighters/random people who like to carry bombs, believe that it works though?
I'm not so sure that they're a bad idea provided you use them the right way.
By using one of these sticks, you can:
A) Give would be bombers the impression that you can detect explosives
B) Search a suspicious looking person under the guise that your "bomb stick" was pointing at them.
C) Possess a piece of technology that your enemy will never be able to understand.
By using one of these sticks, you can:
A) Give would be bombers the impression that you can detect explosives
B) Search a suspicious looking person under the guise that your "bomb stick" was pointing at them.
C) Possess a piece of technology that your enemy will never be able to understand.
Quote:Original post by GametakuQuote:Original post by Yann LQuote:Original post by Binomine
Foot pads that suck disease out. Psychic surgery. Immortality rings. Special massages that cures diseases before they are detectable by modern medicine. Special LEDs that cure cancer. Magnetic shoes that promote health. There is no end to this list.
Yeah, but this story is about a countries armed forces using such a BS device. That's quite a difference here. Using a placebo instead of an actual bomb detector can put many peoples lives at risk. Even not using anything at all is better than such a placebo. The latter will give people a false sense of security ("see, we can detect a bomb from an airplane three miles high !"), instead of sensitizing them on handling and avoiding dangerous situations.
So yeah, if the general population believes these things, well, whatever. But if the armed forces do, then there is a serious problem.
Do the terrorist/freedom fighters/random people who like to carry bombs, believe that it works though?
Yeah. That is the other side of the coin, but still falls under "People are Stupid" heading, and the sub heading of "People are Cowards".
If there appears to be a high chance of detection of bomb components, then fewer people will be willing to transport them.
I also don't see how using the fake wand thing is any worse than them not having anything. That is of course going with the assumption that they are actually performing inspections, and not just waving the wand at them as they drive past.
A false sense of security is better than the truth that there is no security. There is NO practical way to defend against the guy planning to die anyway. He has no fear of anything you could do to him.
Quote:Original post by MoeQuote:Iraq Swears by Bomb Detector U.S. Sees as Useless - New York Times
ATSC’s promotional material claims that its device can find guns, ammunition, drugs, truffles, human bodies and even contraband ivory at distances up to a kilometer, underground, through walls, underwater or even from airplanes three miles high.
What the hell?! Who makes this thing, and do they advertise that it finds all of these things? I could even understand ammunition and drugs at close range, as there are chemicals that can react to those materials, but truffles and ivory?! C'mon, Iraqi armed forces.
Quote:Original post by Phytoplankton
I'm not so sure that they're a bad idea provided you use them the right way.
By using one of these sticks, you can:
A) Give would be bombers the impression that you can detect explosives
B) Search a suspicious looking person under the guise that your "bomb stick" was pointing at them.
C) Possess a piece of technology that your enemy will never be able to understand.
But as Yann touched on, these elements would likely be negated considering the fact that the Iraqi forces also believe in it. Bluffs can be very powerful in many lines of security and police work. I heard a story before that a few years before the first lie-detectors were released, after police heard they were being worked on, they would just strap someone to a blood pressure machine and tell them it was a lie detector, and about half of perpetrators spilled their guts in fear that the machine was going to rat them out.
But there are problems with the authority believing in BS gizmos. If they feel that their "magic rod" can sense anything that may hurt them, they could be exposing themselves to dangerous situations, or they could mistakenly clear an area of threat which could result in the killing of thousands of innocent people.
What are they doing over there? Here are some more choice excerpts:
Quote:Iraq Swears by Bomb Detector U.S. Sees as Useless - New York Times
Still, the Iraqi government has purchased more than 1,500 of the devices, known as the ADE 651, at costs from $16,500 to $60,000 each.
...
The suicide bombers who managed to get two tons of explosives into downtown Baghdad on Oct. 25, killing 155 people and destroying three ministries, had to pass at least one checkpoint where the ADE 651 is typically deployed, judging from surveillance videos released by Baghdad’s provincial governor.
...
The Iraqis, however, believe passionately in them. “Whether it’s magic or scientific, what I care about is it detects bombs,” said Maj. Gen. Jehad al-Jabiri, head of the Ministry of the Interior’s General Directorate for Combating Explosives.
...
Dale Murray, head of the National Explosive Engineering Sciences Security Center at Sandia Labs. . .said the center had “tested several devices in this category, and none have ever performed better than random chance.”
...
Normal remote explosives detection machinery, often employed in airports, weighs tons and costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.
...
“I don’t care about Sandia or the Department of Justice or any of them,” General Jabiri said. “I know more about this issue than the Americans do. In fact, I know more about bombs than anyone in the world.”
Wow. And how about this company, ATSC? Not only are they selling useless garbage to third-world countries, soaking up millions in money that could be feeding the poor or going towards real police and military equipment, they were over-charging Iraq in the beginning even on their own price of $16k each. When they first started selling them, they were charging them $60k, and then finally came down to $15k.
Quote:Original post by Moe
I find it absolutely mind blowing that people would actually believe in these things, pay money for them, and trust other people's lives to them.
That's exactly what I said when most of the americans where convinced that Saddam Hussain was behind 9/11 and that re-electing the republicans was a great idea.
People is dumb always and anywhere, regardeless of their social status, education level and race.
I suspect that General Jabiri is taking kick backs from the company that makes these "magic wands". A couple more choice snippets from the article:
Iraq is paying $40k more for each device, three times as much as they otherwise sell for. This screams out for a corruption investigation, if not in Iraq, than in the UK and the US. It's likely the money for these useless devices comes from US taxpayers.
@Phytoplankton
You could also give would be bombers the impression that you can detect explosives with bomb-sniffing dogs.
Quote:
...
The ADE 651’s clients are mostly in developing countries; no major country’s military or police force is a customer, according to the manufacturer.
...
Aqeel al-Turaihi, the inspector general for the Ministry of the Interior, reported that the ministry bought 800 of the devices from a company called ATSC (UK) Ltd. for $32 million in 2008, and an unspecified larger quantity for $53 million. Mr. Turaihi said Iraqi officials paid up to $60,000 apiece, when the wands could be purchased for as little as $18,500. He said he had begun an investigation into the no-bid contracts with ATSC.
...
Iraq is paying $40k more for each device, three times as much as they otherwise sell for. This screams out for a corruption investigation, if not in Iraq, than in the UK and the US. It's likely the money for these useless devices comes from US taxpayers.
@Phytoplankton
You could also give would be bombers the impression that you can detect explosives with bomb-sniffing dogs.
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