Proving logarithm rules

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16 comments, last by ibebrett 14 years, 4 months ago
Quote:Original post by Gil Grissom
Quote:Original post by nullsquared
Would that be valid, since I started with a trivially true statement and worked up to the original?

Yes, it looks valid, as long as by "substitution" you mean "the equation one before last is true for any m, n, and, therefore, for m = log x and n = log y in particular".


Thanks, appreciate it. If anyone else wants to chime in, feel free.
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Quote:
m - n = m - n

logbbm - logbbn = logbbm - n (by definition of logarithms, this is equivalent to the above equation)
You have not shown that this is true.

Namely, you have yet to demonstrate that log b^m - log b^n = log b^(m-n)
You're still assuming that which you have to prove.

Here's a better way:
log x - log y ? log x/y
Let m = log x <=> b^m = x
Let n = log y <=> b^n = y

m - n ? log x/y
b^(m-n) ? log x/y
log b^(m-n) ? log x/y
log b^m/b^n ? log x/y
log x/y ? log x/y
log x/y = log x/y

Thus: log x - log y = log x/y
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Quote:Original post by SticksandStones
Quote:
m - n = m - n

logbbm - logbbn = logbbm - n (by definition of logarithms, this is equivalent to the above equation)
You have not shown that this is true.

Namely, you have yet to demonstrate that log b^m - log b^n = log b^(m-n)
You're still assuming that which you have to prove.

Well, by definition of logs, the question is b to the what power is bm? and the answer is clearly m because bm = bm. Therefore, logbbm is just m, and the same goes for n and (m - n). Perhaps if I explicitly write out bm = bm it would work?

<edit> Actually, my part might be better rewritten as "since logarithms and exponentiation are inverse operations, logbbm is equivalent to m" </edit>

Quote:
Here's a better way:
log x - log y ? log x/y
Let m = log x <=> b^m = x
Let n = log y <=> b^n = y

m - n ? log x/y
b^(m-n) ? log x/y
log b^(m-n) ? log x/y
log b^m/b^n ? log x/y
log x/y ? log x/y
log x/y = log x/y

Thus: log x - log y = log x/y

I understand your proof, but don't your first and third steps do exactly what you told me I can't do? You change m - n into logbbm-n, which is essentially what I did before.
If you want to use the same steps as your first proof, start by assuming that the statement is not true:

logbx - logby != logbx/y

Standard proof by contradiction.

However, assuming you already have some other rules for logarithms, there's a more direct proof. Here's a hint: u - v = u + (-v)

I think this leads to a better proof since it's more direct, leads to a better understanding of why the relation is true, and, to a teacher, shows a better understanding of the underlying concepts.
My book does it neatly by first proving this property :

ln(ab) = ln(a) + ln(b)

Then letting a = 1/b :

ln(1/b * b) = ln(1/b) + ln(b)

since ln(1/b * b ) = ln(1) = 0;

then

0 = ln(1/b) + ln(b)

ln(1/b) = -ln(b)


and we know that ln(1/b) = -ln(b).
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Here's how I would do it. Let's forget about b for a second an use natural logarithms (it mostly just simplifies notation):

k := log(x)-log(y)
exp(k) = exp(log(x)-log(y))
exp(k) = exp(log(x))/exp(log(y))
exp(k) = x/y
k = log(x/y)

Therefore,
log(x)-log(y) = log(x/y)

Now you can divide everything by log(b) and get the same result with base-b logarithms.
Quote:Original post by alvaro
Here's how I would do it. Let's forget about b for a second an use natural logarithms (it mostly just simplifies notation):

k := log(x)-log(y)
exp(k) = exp(log(x)-log(y))
exp(k) = exp(log(x))/exp(log(y))
exp(k) = x/y
k = log(x/y)

Therefore,
log(x)-log(y) = log(x/y)

Now you can divide everything by log(b) and get the same result with base-b logarithms.


Oh, that's incredibly simple and elegant. Thanks for pointing it out!
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