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[Universe impact]- involves three diferent races

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The story involves three different races that dominates playable galaxy and becomes very aggressive after the "universe impact" event. The event involves human experiments to make other two races less defensive. And the gameplay would vary mostly by the capabilities of direct control over units and their abilities. Races: Humans They are the usual thing as in most strategy games. Before the "impact" they were already controlling big part of the galaxy, so they were a thread of making other life extinct. Humans are mostly peaceful with each other, because of the strong leadership, but they still were too aggressive against other life forms. Cells (capitalized "Cells" means this race) The race individuals are mono-cells varying from the realistic size and human size. These cells have strong telekinetic relations, while being separated by huge distances. They have basic brains, but as the universe is full of them, the whole race is very smart (because every creature adds up to it's intelligence). Before the "impact" they were very defensive, but had disarming plans for humans if they were to expand further into space. Cells were sending viruses to humans that took over their minds to determine if they would ever stop increasing their power in galaxy. That made humans to cause the "impact", after they figured out Cells's plans for them. Bitrens For Bitrens word cell means a small society of Bitrens controlled by the main Core. Bitrens hadn't got many solar systems in control and they also were passive about the humans. Bitrens didn't attack each other before the "impact". The creatures, that are spawned from the core are mono-tasked, and could hardly think anything for themselves. Bitrens could also be spawned from spawners hat are controlled from the core. Bitrens weren't a thread for the Cells, as they were uninterested in exploring space. Some Bitrens could be more aggressive because of the experiments made by humans, but they still were too little in size to cause any problems. STORY: the universe impact After Cells declare war (as all of the universe Cells) and start manage the spreading of humans, the leaders of human civilization tries to destroy the telekinesis relations of cells. By doing so they not only makes Cells vulnerable (because after that every single Cell is opposing), but also makes every single Bio-form in the galaxy mutated. Humans and other multiple-celled creatures get sick and eventually die. Races after the impact Humans: Because the leaders were at the ground zero of the impact, they died. So the remaining/less hurt people are without any good control and fall apart. They split into factions and start battling against each other. Cells: They get the most damage as they have relied on their relations.They start attacking each other and turns into aggressive specie. Bitrens: As Bitrens are cell societies, they take the least damage. After they get split into phew factions, they shortly fights out their battles and starts conquering the remaining galaxy. Story after impact You try to bring back peace to the universe. And to do that you must somehow access the machine that made the impact and return cells their relations. By the way: Cells would be in total anarchy, because after impact, none of two Cells would be friendly. Gamepaly Humans: They have more or less standard control as in most RTS. Varying from the factions after the impact they can have more and cheaper units or less, but with more tactical capabilities. It would include stealth and long range attacks. Cells: The race intelligence concept- the more you have, the smarter you are. This would be represented in game as more complex units would be available by the amount of your units. Most units could duplicate by itself, so you wouldn't have a static base, unless some defense structures. They would be controlled in small packs (it's easy because they have strong thinking relations). Factions could include capabilities of: making a bigger unit out of few Cells; using viruses to take over life forms, including humans; being separate warriors and fighting in packs. Faction difference would be accessed after having a number of standard cells, that are common for every faction in the beginning. Bitrens: After being created you have little to none controlling capabilities. You can manually adjust what units patrols in your defense wall, if you want to have it. Bitrens would be very fast so the second you make one, half minute later it is mostly beginning doing it's task. You would need to send Bitrens in advance, so if you scout ahead first, you are most likely to succeed, because sending another attackers along the field would take some time. Most of the strategy would involve moving your spawners and making Bitrens accordingly to the enemies forces. Factions would consist: A faction that relies on remote spawners to shorten the time between order and it's accomplishment; a faction that can stack up Bitrens and then control then with a number of distinctive leaders; or a faction that's creatures have some complexer thinking capabilities. The core would be smart in all Bitren's cells. General story after the impact: The Bitrens starts conquering the most of the galaxy, while humans and Cells still fights themselves. [Edited by - xfront on December 12, 2009 5:49:05 AM]

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When I look at races in a strategy game, I look at their collective efforts and how each unit works toward a goal. You have the "what" and the "how", but what is the "why"? That would help us see how well your races develop in game. For example, I imagine the goal of all the races is pretty much the same in all strategy games: Try to claim/destroy stuff or stop another race from claiming/destroying stuff.

I would also clean up your description for the sake of presentation in this thread. If I may, let me try to parrot what you've just said in a summarized manner and see if I'm getting what you're saying.

Humans - Standard role. While the poor are industrious and great in number, they cannot oversee greater tasks intellectually. The higher you go in the chain of command, the more isolated humans are from the battlefield with greater influence per decision.

Celloids - Moderately complex multi-celled bioforms. These creatures focus on reinforcing their numbers quickly.

Bitrens - Simple organisms dedicated to linear tasks for maximum efficiency. Resource collection and use is consequently very efficient. Some groups may not need monitoring after certain conditions are met.

Looking at this cleaner overview, I'd say that Celloids and Bitrens need to be a little less docile. A very retro game I own called Dark Planet: Battle for Natrolis had a sickening race called the... was it Drell? Anyway, they were this insect race that focused heavily on rapid development and spawning. The troops were weak, but vast in number. These guys aren't unlike Starcraft's infamous Zerg race. What these guys have that your latter two races lack is manic aggression.

I feel that Celloids and Bitrens tend to mind their own business and work productively like ants, but do not really have the foundation to take on humans.
Maybe look into that?

Cheers!

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I wouldn't call ants docile. Go kick a rotting tree full of them and watch, better yet, step on their hills and feel how docile they are. Their efficiency at working is matched quite well by their collective efficiency at driving away threats.

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Thanks Zyrolasting. You got what I mean better than I did. Made some modifications to the thread.
I also think that the maniac large number race while being used, hadn't got any additional gameplay options for comfortable controlling of their numbers (having in mind Starcraft), just group assignments.

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I wouldn't call ants docile. Go kick a rotting tree full of them and watch, better yet, step on their hills and feel how docile they are. Their efficiency at working is matched quite well by their collective efficiency at driving away threats.


You're advocating I'd stick around and let them bite me. It's implied that any creature will fight for what they stand for, and I even said that explicitly. Maybe "docile" wasn't the right word to use, but they may as well be with the original information. What I'm saying is there isn't much ground on how the colony races defend themselves. To counter your point, go kick a rotting tree full of ants and walk away.

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Thanks Zyrolasting. You got what I mean better than I did. Made some modifications to the thread.
I also think that the maniac large number race while being used, hadn't got any additional gameplay options for comfortable controlling of their numbers (having in mind Starcraft), just group assignments.


xFront, you're looking better. I still got a few thoughts.

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Humans: they have a "right" to do that.
Cells: for multiplying reasons, environment is a offense for them.
Bitrens: other things are moving food, just need to make them gather-able.


Let's give the humans a motive, now. Sure, the motive of MOAR LAND PLZ is cliche'd across multiple RTS games, but it is appropriate. Although I'm sure you'd find it if you really look, I have yet to see a game where humans force species to extinction to fulfill some irrelevant biblical reasoning like "we felt like doing it, so we did." Your Cells are looking good, but looking at their previous overview, they feel more like tools than an intelligent race. There have been countless stories where humans have toyed with virii and biological junk to affect their lives. Bioshock, anyone? Bitrens also apply here.

One thing to remember is that humans are likely traveling through space here, and scientists are likely all over the place. Biological expiriments must be going on, and viruses may be invented! The problem you've hit is that you are trying to make races that take advantage of their simplicity, but you include a race (humans) that can manipulate them!

Your challenge now stands at keeping your races as simple bioforms, but also making them complex enough so that humans can't easily use them. A race in an RTS is normally very intelligent, but Cells and Bitrens are at worst an environmental hazard like a pit of lava or poison gas. Even with rapid development, it's still hard to picture them holding their own against humans.
Look back on the little back and forth I just had with JasRonq. He's right that species wouldn't just sit by while they are being trumped, but ants are simply not strong enough to handle us.

...A pride of mutant talking lions, on the other hand...

Anyway, I LOVE the idea of a virus-like race that can antagonize another race, but they would have to be complex. Note I used the term "virus-like"! I've had an interesting idea for a race I called the Nemst that can break down their structure to simpler forms to "sample" their environment and change their basic cellular structure. They would appear differently on regrowth depending on samples taken. Try something like that, and make sure the complex forms can fight with skill rivaling humans. I don't have the biology knowledge to back this with believable info, but it is a neat concept.

EDIT: On second thought, bitrens are too simple of a race to hold it's own
in an RTS at all. They can be awesome tools, but I think that's it.

[Edited by - zyrolasting on December 11, 2009 10:58:03 AM]

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About the ants, maybe a better example is amazonian ants. Everything is meaner there and the ants go on rampant marches across the jungle floor literally devouring alive anything in their path. Try walking away from that tree!
All I was trying to get at though is that the personality and motives of a race have little to do with how they work or structure their colonies. Sure those things give an idea of their methods and mind set, but being highly structured and methodical only means they are highly structured and methodical, not incapable of terrorizing masses, destroying whole races, or being docile.


About adaptation to the environment, you can always toss buzz words around a little and make stuff up. The more intelligent and well read on your subject the more they will notice so learning something about it would help. For instance a biological organism can sample the DNA of anything else that is biological and adapt to it or otherwise incorporate it into themselves. They can also breakdown local materials and use them as resources in their body. Consider this, a tree builds itself from the dirt it lives in. Different dirt means different minerals in its body. Taken to an extreme and combined with mutating DNA and you could collect new materials by eating them and making new bodies with new properties.

An example. There is a kind of material called piezo electric which convert deformations in their structure into electricity. That means if yo hit a chunk of this crystal with a hammer, it makes a shock. That sounds like a good melee defense if you take the effect to an extreme. (the effect also works in reverse. Maybe if you shock them hard enough, they deform their bodies until they break apart?)

So, you can sample the DNA of living things and adapt to that, or you can break down anything around you and use it as a resource in building your body.

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You're advocating I'd stick around and let them bite me. It's implied that any creature will fight for what they stand for, and I even said that explicitly. Maybe "docile" wasn't the right word to use, but they may as well be with the original information. What I'm saying is there isn't much ground on how the colony races defend themselves. To counter your point, go kick a rotting tree full of ants and walk away.

They aren't efficient in killing attackers, but they can drive them away very well. You kicking it and leaving counts in that. If you stay to try to kill all the ants, small they may be, you probably won't get out unscathed... Unless you had a flame throwing but that's like a 200 lb boxer fighting a baby, which is even more mismatched than a human vs a colony of ants.

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About the ants, maybe a better example is amazonian ants. Everything is meaner there and the ants go on rampant marches across the jungle floor literally devouring alive anything in their path. Try walking away from that tree!

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They aren't efficient in killing attackers, but they can drive them away very well. You kicking it and leaving counts in that. If you stay to try to kill all the ants, small they may be, you probably won't get out unscathed... Unless you had a flame throwing but that's like a 200 lb boxer fighting a baby, which is even more mismatched than a human vs a colony of ants.


You guys are misunderstanding something where I'm coming from. My entire argument is that no matter what motive the race has or what goal they try to achieve, it is indeed mismatched. Try thinking of this in an RTS rather than real life... That's where I'm coming from. Captain Dane is standing over the 2 foot tall hill of the Quazar Ants of Broken Dreams (or something, bear with me [disturbed]) He knows the ants in there are vicious, but incapable of keeping up with a human in a chase. Why NOT use a flamethrower, hose, etc? You simply have to have a mutant ant colony in order to keep up with a terrified man in full sprint.

Anyway the point is humans always tend to have a destructive goal in an RTS and have a lot of ideas to achieve it. Simpler organisms don't. I don't know why you guys keep making this assumption that humans would strike an ant colony and just stand there while they are bitten to death. In starcraft, no Zergling ever knocked down a Pylon and said "Oh I'm sorry, go ahead and put a laser in my face." There has to be a retaliation that rivals the attackers strength. I'm not trying to show my actual knowledge of ants in the real world! I'm just comparing complex to simple organisms in battle. I also could have used plankton for my example. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Closer to this topic with the Cells and Bitrens, they COULD infect the humans, but humans could wear a HAZMAT suit. Humans also could just poison the resource supply Bitrens work around. There's just too many things simpler organisms can;t do... That's one context to the word "simpler"!

As it currently stands, humans have every means to trump the other races introduced here unless the others were more complex and intelligent. I stomped an anthill, and I don't want to get bitten so I move away. I didn't move away so much because the ants drove me away. It was more because I knew I would be hurt if I stayed. Pothb, what you mentioned is like saying a hot stove is capable of warding off predators. Sure, but I'd say predators stay away from stuff like that due to THEIR better judgement. It sounds like you are crediting the simpler organisms here, which (to me) really only works once... When they actually retaliate successfully. Even if I didn't kill all ants in an anthill, I did do a lot of damage to all the ants care about. This is also a good objective in an RTS!

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Thanks for all of the replies, but you are missing my point.

Humans: working on their own (as for them selves, each person).
Cells: individual parts, but has strong relations.
Bitrern: almost NO INDIVIDUAL thought process, only linear tasks.

By saying different parts evolving, I meant different parts, they would still be rather intelligent:Bitrens are very dumb creatures, but they have a main CORE that knows everything, and has to send smaller creatures. Those task-assigned creatures aren't smart to do multiple tasks, but they are evolved to do an exact thing very well, they also could be as much dangerous as a tank (just a part of society controlled by main core).

I think these different races are mostly different by how much individual "minds" control them. Bitren core is evolved, so its smarter than thousands of human workers, but it can't directly control some of it's crated creatures. It will still have enough thoughts in it's mind to have reasons for attacking humans.

I think Bitrens gameplay would be like making a way-point on an enemy, making a fighter and then forgetting. Now I'm more concentrating on the control abilities, rather that abilities in growing and using environment. Some of your thought are still interesting. Bitrens could also be stacked up in a field, and then you send a leader, so all of your created attackers follow it towards enemy.

Also, Cells and Bitrens could be based on Silicon, normal nature uses Carbon. You might check out following links for more details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/S/siliconlife.html

I think I will need to sum it up somewhere (these design ideas).
Just a note: I think there is too many time spent discussing about why someone would attack something, I will still need that, but I think it's enough for now.

Thanks for yourinterest.

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Just a note: I think there is too many time spent discussing about why someone would attack something, I will still need that, but I think it's enough for now.


Sorry about that.

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By saying different parts evolving, I meant different parts, they would still be rather intelligent:Bitrens are very dumb creatures, but they have a main CORE that knows everything, and has to send smaller creatures. Those task-assigned creatures aren't smart to do multiple tasks, but they are evolved to do an exact thing very well, they also could be as much dangerous as a tank (just a part of society controlled by main core).
I s'pose it will work, but you may want to edit your OP since this "core" just suddenly came up.

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I think Bitrens gameplay would be like making a way-point on an enemy, making a fighter and then forgetting.


From the perspective of a gamer, this sounds really boring. For me, half the fun in an RTS is management and maintenance of assets. I can take some help if units spawn so quickly that I can't always remember to go back and select them, but I wouldn't want them to fight for me in the sense that I don't even need to issue an attack. To be fair, I do think an idea like yours was used elsewhere. I just personally never used the feature.

What you are suggesting would have an impact on gameplay that may need to be toyed with until perfection. It doesn't hurt to give Bitrens their own passive abilities, but try to push them a little closer to playing by the same rules as the other races.

Here's an example on why the automated attack to a way point may be a problem... Say you set a way point on some troops that are a little bit away from their home base and forget about the bitrens involved. the tactic works for a while as it thins defenses, but any good AI would note this and send stronger units to the same spot until you start automatically sending bitrens to their death with little benefit to you, when they could be used to collect resources or defend the Core. I don't want to have to have my automated bitrens effectively build up the opposition in this way and make a stronger wall for me to tear down later.

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Original post by zyrolasting
I s'pose it will work, but you may want to edit your OP since this "core" just suddenly came up.

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I think Bitrens gameplay would be like making a way-point on an enemy, making a fighter and then forgetting.


From the perspective of a gamer, this sounds really boring. For me, half the fun in an RTS is management and maintenance of assets. I can take some help if units spawn so quickly that I can't always remember to go back and select them, but I wouldn't want them to fight for me in the sense that I don't even need to issue an attack. To be fair, I do think an idea like yours was used elsewhere. I just personally never used the feature.

What you are suggesting would have an impact on gameplay that may need to be toyed with until perfection. It doesn't hurt to give Bitrens their own passive abilities, but try to push them a little closer to playing by the same rules as the other races.


I edited my post. When doing this last time I accidentally took away the core.


Think big: you have hundreds of enemy attackers and you have about 5-20 Bitren spawners (first time mentioning) that are controlled from the core. You can automatically spawn fighters, so you must move your spawners to sides so you flank enemy and etc. There won't be just Cores that spawn your creatures. Maybe you could have some Generals that reorder Bitrens within their radius.
Also consider my suggestion of making a lot of attackers and than sending a leader that is followed.

Bitrens would be like ammo against your enemy and you just have to constantly control the direction, the type you send and some other things.

As much I would like to make a game playable by casual strategy players, I want to make it different. You wouldn't win just because you can jump from one place to another in the map quickly and efficiently controlling your troops, but maybe controlling 50 spawners, but taking more factors: terrain, enemy tactics and trying more to surprise your enemy.

About cells, these are less clear for me, as we don't discuss them a lot. As I think now, they could be separate units, but controlled in packs of different numbers, varying from the factions. These could have some simple RPG ellements.

I think this much information about races would be difficultly consumed only reading, so that's why I don't write everything in one time. Should I make a detailed description?

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I still feel Bitrens are more of a resource themselves than a race. If I were developing an RTS with simple bioforms, I would take the evolution concept you mentioned and make it so that mono-celled new troops were in development into walking, talking warriors. It just seems to me you can't have a conflict unless you have competing creatures that can at least engage in fisticuffs.

Since you use Cores or some greater unit to control the Bitrens, you are on the right track... Even so, it shows that you can't have an entire race of simple creatures. Leaders that know what they are doing are needed.

Here's an idea: Why don't you make some intelligent alien race that is capable of harnessing Bitrens, and try to avoid fighting any other way? It seems like it would be awesome to have some tentacled trooper toss a vial into enemy lines and cause a horrible pandemic before running like hell. You could also use them to contaminate resource supplies! Imagine sneaking to an underground mine where Humans frequently dig in and gassing it with an oderless breed of Bitren that will turn the miners insides into sludge!

Maybe have another breed be sprayed on minerals to be broken down into an easy to carry liquid form that can be brought back to base for processing? You need some labor units just to be able to carry things! I wouldn't rely on simpler organisms for that, would you?

It gives you the factor of having a challenge for humans due to them fighting another intelligent race, and allowing you to fight solely with Bitrens.

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As much I would like to make a game playable by casual strategy players, I want to make it different. You wouldn't win just because you can jump from one place to another in the map quickly and efficiently controlling your troops, but maybe controlling 50 spawners, but taking more factors: terrain, enemy tactics and trying more to surprise your enemy.


You don't seem to be introducing anything different when you put it that way. I wouldn't knock the controlling troops efficiently bit, though. That's one big area where skill comes in. I ALWAYS encourage being different and praise you for even wanting to be that way, but don't stray too far. The reason we have a standard feel to RTS games is to give casual RTS gamers less time spent learning the game and more time playing it.

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One thing that would be sticking a bit closer to real biology and also allow for the simple organisms to have complex abilities is if they took hosts. What if they really were single cells, of normal size and infected other races as bacterial infections.

They could then mutate them into a new form. That would mean that this race could not get instant units because the host body would first be sick and weak, then cocooned (strong defense but immobile and no offense) then it would "hatch" into its new form. The bigger and more powerful the change in unit or the unit being taken then longer the process and the more food it would need to complete. Mutating the unit would also mean it is identifiable, an important aspect to give the race a unified feel.

It would be very difficult to balance against other races and get working well, but it would be very different from the usual.

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That would mean that this race could not get instant units because the host body would first be sick and weak, then cocooned (strong defense but immobile and no offense) then it would "hatch" into its new form. The bigger and more powerful the change in unit or the unit being taken then longer the process and the more food it would need to complete. Mutating the unit would also mean it is identifiable, an important aspect to give the race a unified feel.

It would be very difficult to balance against other races and get working well, but it would be very different from the usual.


I've seen it done in Dark Planet: Battle For Natrolis, only the cocooned troops were broken down into foodstuff for ingestion by the Drell, which actually made stronger units available. I think they played with the concept further by allowing the foodstuff to be injected right into Drell larva, making a rapid evolution available. I thought it was neat. Even so, I wouldn't say this is unusual at all, but only because there really aren't many ways to work with simple life in this way.

As for balancing for the other races, you really can not when being biologically accurate. Infection, etc would have to be supernaturally quick, like Halo's Flood. Heck, let's actually analyze the Flood more. Their leader was the Gravemind which was analogous to the Bitren's Core. The virus spread like mad and made the Master Chief's life difficult, but the Gravemind seemed to be the one intelligent governing body at the heart of the pandemic. Play Halo and try to study the Flood. You may also remember they adopt some knowledge from their hosts, such as how to use guns. There isn't much to the chain o' command, but I still think xFront is on better ground with having intelligent life behind the simpler ones.

The problem though is that the Bitrens were meant to be mono-celled, right? They can't traverse quickly, so they would indeed need hosts if anything. However, here's another question... How do you get to your first host in a match? Do you wait for someone to stumble upon you and make an apocalyptic oopsie? Most fictional viruses got their start from a dumb mistake.

Anyway, you may want to start by infecting bunnies or insects that bite humans.
After that, you could harbor DNA or something to spawn additional infected troops. ORRRR... You could introduce these guys later in the game, after someone did indeed screw up and ended up making a lot of people turn gross and evil.

If none of that works, xFont would need to fall back on his General/Leader idea or similar.

[Edited by - zyrolasting on December 9, 2009 5:51:41 PM]

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Original post by zyrolasting
ORRRR... You could introduce these guys later in the game, after someone did indeed screw up and ended up making a lot of people turn gross and evil.


This is way too away from the actual gameplay, which I am now focusing on. If we talk that way, Bitren's leader could be showed at the very end of the game, so humans just don't get why they are being hunted.
One thought would be that a person from human society is taken as a hostage, and it's mind is overtaken by some cells. So if humans had some destructive plans. Other bio-forms would work their way for survival and eliminate the thread.


Humans are very vulnerable as organisms, but very smart in their tactics and social stuff. Bitrens and cells could be very strong at their survival, but rather low in their morale and feel of the whole race as a friendly specie.


Taking over humans could be a disease like this:

Virus smoothly access brains and tries to determine the needs of exact specie and how does it get it. For example: virus knows that human needs food, and that the people of a town gets it by transport like trains, so the virus tries to do as much damage possible and destroys the rails. And after finding weak spots of the society where it lives, it could do damage.

This wouldn't be a RTS, unless you get control of more people and than you need to efficiently spread the virus across the people and somehow remain stealthy until it could do some suaver (great) damage, or maybe get guns and just start battles with diseased men.

I think there are enough reasons to make Bitrens attack humans, but I don't think it's necessary to talk about exact examples of what could that be.

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person from human society is taken as a hostage


By who? You still don't clarify if Bitrens or cells have any original intelligence other than having some leaders. I have seen nothing in this thread backing their ability to traverse terrain or overpower humans.

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Humans are very vulnerable as organisms, but very smart in their tactics and social stuff.


No sir. It is a big mistake to underestimate the potential of humans, physically or mentally. While we could be judged as biochemical burlap sacks in comparison to extraterrestrial races, we are incredibly sophisticated creatures with bodies that can take an enormous amount of abuse. We are by no means vulnerable, and if you look at many RTS games and training for astronauts in real life, only elite humans would even be able go out in space! If we were to over-analyze this, you still need to know HOW Cells and Bitrens can tear through a human's biological defenses. Do they get inhaled, or ingested? Also, you still need some sort of weak initial host to make your way to humans. (Bunnies, squirrels, lizards) We are complex lifeforms, composed of so many different kinds of cells to make us function well in so many ways. It's beautiful, in a nauseating sort of way. [sick]

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virus knows that human needs food, and that the people of a town gets it by transport like trains, so the virus tries to do as much damage possible and destroys the rails.


That sounds mighty intelligent for simple life forms. You are trying to go for simple life, remember? Try to be consistent. In the entire life of this thread, I asked how Bitrens and Cells can rival humans, but it looks like your attempts to come up with an answer now brinks making Cells and Bitrens intelligent and therefore complex creatures. There's nothing wrong with that, but it contradicts your original design.

Think of the Black Plague. This tore us up, but something had to pass the disease on to us. The main culprits were insects and rodents. There's a reason you don't see unintelligent life in RTS games. Virii and the like do their thing rather mindlessly with no ability to consciously antagonize. When we got the black plague, no little morsel of the virus was twiddling a little germy mustache and snickering as it tore up some more of our cells. We pretty much tried to cure ourselves in an ironic fashion by trying to expel bacteria from our body, ruining other people's lives that were unfortunate enough to be in the way. If you want your Cells and Bitrens to rival humans, you still need a way to start that process through a cutscene or anything else. I just do not think you can do it without reinforcement through complex life that can affect humans.

I repeat the following options once more, as I don't think you are understanding their significance.

A. Infect creatures that may be plentiful, and can do something to spread Bitrens/Cells to more advanced creatures. That would be great and very unusual for a feel of an RTS if you were to start with some soup of cells and bitrens that can't even build any structures, but only propagate through even the smallest of hosts until they control everything.

B. Someone has to make a mistake and cause a sudden pandemic, given Bitrens/Cells immediate grounds to rival other races.

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Bitrens and cells could be very strong at their survival, but rather low in their morale and feel of the whole race as a friendly specie.


Now I'm confused. Do you have an example of a race in another RTS that had low morale and was friendly? I have yet to see one in a published game.

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Sorry for the confusing stuff, but my English is rather limited in explaining these kinds of stuff. I will still try to clarify some things.

Lets talk about cells as how I imagine now. They are mostly creatures that want to survive and lets say they get their hands on a human colonist. They hack into his brain and than realize that they are some sort of aggressive species and it needs to be destroyed/unforced in order to live safely.

Bitrens could in fact be controlled by another smart species. And I think that will come with the story.

As for the vulnerability you also are very skeptic. You talk like humans are always in bio suit, but that would be in some situations, like war. And since I didn't mention it was war, it can be- not war. Humans could be attacked and infected in their home, remember there could be those poorer people, that just couldn't have those suits, but they are great in numbers, so you can clearly spot who are infected after a while.

For these communication issues, I think I will have to remake my thread again, with more detail. Last time I mentioned some factions, so humans could be split, but that is where the story goes. I can think of how faction harvest Bitrens and maybe somehow Bitrens escape, but I just give you those: All of the available creatures, that could be accessed throughout the game, and just want to ask would they be playable, rather that realistic.


For the hosts, its a possibility, but I want to remind that I want Bitrens to be made fast, for exact situations, and controlled for linear tasks. We discussed so much about these thing that I start to forget what I was thinking at first, I really need to reedit the main thread. But yet again: more text, more to read.


If you must know, I think of a game that has something to do with time traveling:
Someone detonated a bomb way back in time, so now the flow of time is messed up. Using the current anarchy in the universe some individuals seek to gain control of the universe and change the time into something never seen before.
Its a very primitive explanation, but this opens many opportunities for the leaders of some groups. But let's stay on the topic.


And by saying stuff about Bitrens and Cells, i had in mind that they would mostly rely on them selves and could survive with no help (mostly applies for Cells). While some untrained men could just die without others.

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Lets talk about cells as how I imagine now. They are mostly creatures that want to survive and lets say they get their hands on a human colonist. They hack into his brain and than realize that they are some sort of aggressive species and it needs to be destroyed/unforced in order to live safely.


Still an intelligent decision, which is impossible for monocelled organisms.

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As for the vulnerability you also are very skeptic. You talk like humans are always in bio suit, but that would be in some situations, like war. And since I didn't mention it was war, it can be- not war.


There is ALWAYS a fight going on in an RTS from the beginning of the game to the end. I speak like troops are ready for war because that's what they need to be in game. Who wants to play an RTS where nothing is happening? Who wants to play ANY game where nothing is happening? That's what makes a good story: conflict. What has been is the best way to depict conflict for entire creeds? War!

If we are talking about game play elements, some competition has to be going on. If you want to depict scenes of peace or story development, that's what cut scenes are for.

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For these communication issues, I think I will have to remake my thread again, with more detail. Last time I mentioned some factions, so humans could be split, but that is where the story goes. I can think of how faction harvest Bitrens and maybe somehow Bitrens escape, but I just give you those: All of the available creatures, that could be accessed throughout the game, and just want to ask would they be playable, rather that realistic.


A playable game isn't always a good game. That's like saying a hot dog you found in the toilet of a public restroom is edible.

A good game designer finds a reasonable line between fact and fiction in many games in order to make the best world possible. This means being more exciting than the real world, but only so far-fetched as to make it seem to be n the realm of possibility. This is especially true in science fiction. (Of course, I'm not counting over the top fantasy games like the Katamari series) Your original unedited post said you wanted to have two of your races themed on biology. Meanwhile, you make so many assumptions so far on the side of fiction with this in mind that you can't stick with your original design.

I don't think you understand what goes into an RTS. You have proposed a SINGLE CELLED race and then went on to say they can somehow have intelligence. And I was trying to tell you how you can relate intelligence to them while they still can remain one celled and simple. This was suggested to keep the races closer to your original design. It's impossible for them to have intellegence themselves, so I personally think (as a gamer) this would make for a bad story element, even a fictional one. Take this from someone who actually sucks at biology!

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For these communication issues, I think I will have to remake my thread again, with more detail.


Try rethinking your design entirely and starting a new thread. You can have a solid design and not make a thread that goes into too much detail. If we have to toss similar ideas around like a hot potato, we are probably debating over a bad design. I was indirectly responsible for 3 of your OP edits now... That should be a clue to go back to the drawing board.

Just remember a game designer has to know how his world works to every noticeable detail, but still be able to have a single driving high level concept that can be referred to along the development process.

Overall, this is your call and you will develop what you want. Just remember no one made you come to this forum asking for critique. What I'm saying comes from a good place, so I wish you luck.

[Edited by - zyrolasting on December 10, 2009 5:20:31 PM]

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It isn't unheard of (in science fiction) to have a bunch of single-celled organisms that share a consciousness as if they were one large complex organism. Considering all units in an RTS are controlled by some unseen being (the player), it isn't too hard to work something along those lines into the story. As long as the game is fun to play, a bit of unrealistic biology isn't going to stop anyone from enjoying it.

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It comes down to presentation guys. It has to be self consistent. It also has to be consistent with any rules of the real world the player applies to your world. If you want the player not to do that, you have to be so immersive that the player accepts your worlds rules even when they fly in the face of common sense. In this case common sense is that single cells have no brain and therefor can not be intelligent planners of my doom. You need to show the player why they are and make him believe it.

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It isn't unheard of (in science fiction) to have a bunch of single-celled organisms that share a consciousness as if they were one large complex organism. Considering all units in an RTS are controlled by some unseen being (the player), it isn't too hard to work something along those lines into the story. As long as the game is fun to play, a bit of unrealistic biology isn't going to stop anyone from enjoying it.


It would hinder my ability to enjoy it. This particular example seems to be a game that had a cool idea that the entire design plan revolves around, but with very little facts to solidify the world. I would of course give leeway on casual hobbyist projects, but I'm still pretty hard-a**ed. [smile]

Let me bring one of my old designs in to help you understand why facts are important for any good story. I once wanted to have an alien race that was absolutely brilliant and had an extremely advanced civilization that never had a war and was completely equal. Super-communism, really. This sounds nice in theory, but I couldn't run with it. I had nothing to stand up to the Bystander Effect or coercion and I gave the race a military despite the pacifist history and no conceivable origin. There were other flaws... It was an early, amateur story. Would you also say unrealistic civilizations are also forgivable? It sure didn't help me, no matter how flashy and cool I tried to be to lure gamers from that point. I want to make sure xFront doesn't make the same mistake, or at least not make as big of one.

I won't start passing out biology textbooks... (Although it wouldn't hurt to read one!) I just feel some fictional elements can "flow" to make an equally fictional concept more believable. Bitrens and Cells lack these elements. I concede that some things may pass by casual gamers, but for people who actively look for a good story like myself, (and hopefully many others) I want consistency and little/no holes. I want the designer to pull me in a world that makes sense, even if it's fictional, dragons and everything.

Bob Bates once wrote "Good writing is invisible. Bad writing draws attention to itself." I feel that if I start noticing a single story element over others, it likely doesn't fit or was used poorly.

[Edited by - zyrolasting on December 11, 2009 12:37:23 AM]

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Krez, you just summarized everything that I was trying to tell. And I will continue your thought:
Almost every RTS has a different story, and almost every game has. What not every game has, is it's unique gameplay and other design elements. I guess zyrolasting wouldn't play chess or most of arcade/puzzle games, because there is no motive to fight? Well, you have a motive: you need to win!

Well, if you think cells aren't smart enough, even being many times greater than the real are you might check out zombies. The virus that had infected them wasn't smart, it was just a virus. But hey: zombies loose any humanly thoughts and they don't still be capable of controlling bodies, but even determining other zombies and not attacking them. That's smart. And think of more advanced viruses, they could even look at memories of human and determine its a thread. The zombies aren't viruses or mono cell creatures, but they still uses brains, so maybe virus could use human brains for destroying cities. Viruses would be just "programmed" to use human brains and working counter-offensive against other cells.

At first you mentioned, that there is a constant war and people are prepared for viruses; and later told that my game wouldn't be realistic without conflicts. But I haven't done anything with the exact storyline. I still mentioned that some humans couldn't have bio-suits. But I will repeat that once again: If there is war, there had to be peace some time and maybe when there wasn't no war, people weren't wearing Bio-suits. A virus takes over a mind of one individual and reads his memories. Virus uses human brains to determine if humans was a thread, and yes- it considered that humans has taken over many stars, and extincted many distant species and made a decision that humans needs to be unarmed or lowered in numbers. And the virus takes over hundreds of individuals before anyone knows and starts doing damage. So the game would start when you have control of many infected and THAN the war would start as you might brought other Cells.

Cells as individuals have some sort of intelligence (but not as great as humans), but to make decisions they can use their strong relations and think in large groups (sharing all of the information they have at one time). So yes, they could use hosts to think for them selves, but those decisions would be based partially on the host: like if the host was a tiger a cell would know how to hunt and what it hunts, but it would choose what to do according to cells needs.

As for the Bitrens, I think just writing down everything about them would be really too much. I will make some top-down images of core, workers, etc. and maybe make a short video representation of how it works (I am familiar with movie making).


If you think you have some questions, other than something related to why they attack that, post here. Otherwise I think I will make a new thread with some basic videos, also make some conclusions and write down somewhere everything I think about this. I stated this earlier, but since I was ignored, I think I wont reply to other storytelling stuff.

I may sounded a little aggressive in this reply, but I am a little frustrated at these replies I got so far.

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If you think you have some questions, other than something related to why they attack that, post here. Otherwise I think I will make a new thread with some basic videos, also make some conclusions and write down somewhere everything I think about this. I stated this earlier, but since I was ignored, I think I wont reply to other storytelling stuff.

I may sounded a little aggressive in this reply, but I am a little frustrated at these replies I got so far.


You came in here asking for critique, and you got a generous amount of it. I put a lot of thought into everything I wrote, and it's frustrating that you are willing to abandon all of it because you can't handle criticism. Of course all games are different, but that doesn't give you an excuse to use a bad design or disrespect people who are trying to help you. I personally do not think it would be difficult to fix up a lot of your elements, and we all have been nice enough to take time out of our day to try to help you improve it. We will post about what we feel is flawed. You do not get to decide that. If you are going to be enough of a child to throw all that away because you now think you have an excuse to do what you want with no concern of the consequences... I can't help you, and I'm certainly sad I wasted all this time writing you what feels to be a book. I thought you were interested in developing a good game, but you aren't even willing to hear things you don't like. Why bother making another thread? (You even sent me a PM asking how you should do your next thread!) In many of my early designs, I got my butt torn off by feedback, and I hated every minute of it. Now I'm happy I got it, and I'm trying to pass those benefits on like many other growing developers.
I was also going pretty easy on you in comparison to other threads offering critique.

I've been researching game development for a long time, and I'm just trying to help. I'm still no expert and I'm not even past college yet, but I know a lot more about making a game than you do. Even though krez wasn't wrong and was trying to balance out the feedback, you were never trying to get the message he was putting out across. He just said something along the lines of what you wanted to hear, and you seem to see that as an excuse to use a crappy design. You even took it and tried to turn it into an argument against me.

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Almost every RTS has a different story, and almost every game has. What not every game has, is it's unique gameplay and other design elements. I guess zyrolasting wouldn't play chess or most of arcade/puzzle games, because there is no motive to fight? Well, you have a motive: you need to win!


I never suggested anything against that. I was actually trying to tell you that you needed motives for your races. First with humans, and later with Bitrens.
In fact, you had no distinguishable motive at all and my feedback had you rewrite some things, remember? Reread the top few posts of this thread.

Also, you obviously do not play enough games to ask yourself "Why do the developers of a genre stick with similar designs?" I promise you, it's not because they are not creative.

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Well, if you think cells aren't smart enough, even being many times greater than the real are you might check out zombies. The virus that had infected them wasn't smart, it was just a virus. But hey: zombies loose any humanly thoughts and they don't still be capable of controlling bodies, but even determining other zombies and not attacking them. That's smart. And think of more advanced viruses, they could even look at memories of human and determine its a thread. The zombies aren't viruses or mono cell creatures, but they still uses brains, so maybe virus could use human brains for destroying cities. Viruses would be just "programmed" to use human brains and working counter-offensive against other cells.


Both Jaq and I suggested something like this already. Remember the Flood reference, or the growth of bunnies, etc to humans? Don't take ideas you didn't have in the first place and try to use them in an argument to protect your design. Besides, organisms like zombies model the behavior of propagating the species. You don't have to be intelligent to obey the survival instinct, but in an RTS, I'd say intelligence is necessary. I have yet to play an RTS with a non-intelligent species.

I feel I'm wasting my breath, unfortunately. You heard what you wanted to hear and feel like you've gotten the excuse you were looking for, go ahead and write your story how you want it. No one will ever stop you from doing that, and I was never trying to do that to you to begin with. I just hope something in the back of your mind understands what you are putting yourself into.

[Edited by - zyrolasting on December 11, 2009 10:26:10 AM]

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Please read the whole thread before going into conclusions.

Yes, I want critique. AND I never said I want to abandon this Idea (I even started learning Blender modeling, so I could make more input to the actual game). And by posting some of my design, I wasn't asking for critique on anything else. It would be the same to tell something about my concept art, that isn't here!
I appreciate your input. Some of the story concepts are very good that we have discussed here, but I was just asking to focus more on what I have provided. And after that I was blamed that I hadn't got anything against two Bioforms. Well, when I will eventually need it, I will already have that. So thanks.
So I wont write my story as now I'm aiming for three different classes that are separated by evolutionary events that happened long time ago. Oh its already a story, so I guess you are commenting on the story.

I realize that RTS will not be finished, unless it has a story, don't think I haven't played any.


I don't get you, zyrolasting. I wrote about how cells could use human brains, how I could show what I mean in a video form and of course mentioned that I don't need that much story of motivating Bitrens and Cells.Well, if you ignore most part of my message where I'm still thinking about the game even after reading your last reply (which wouldn't happen if I would abandon my design) and just make something about me not handling your opinion- you are either bad critique, or misunderstood what I mean. By saying I will write down, I meant getting everything into one place and than make a conclusive post later. If you think design isn't made that way, tell that. I will be trying to remake my tread to be readable by most of the members, rather then continuing personal discussion with you, what really takes time for both of us. I am not saying its unproductive!!!

Remember the name of the thread, that's what I'm focusing on. "New races and new gameplay" should I change a name to this.

I don't want this thread to become a place to discuss misunderstanding and other non-game related stuff.
Zyrolasting, you are surely helpful, but I am trying to get help about other things.

[Edited by - xfront on December 11, 2009 10:31:15 AM]

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I've wrote a lot for you in this one thread since the 8th. Lord knows I've read it all. (I love to read and write [smile]) Anyone who actually reads the thread will see that we were trying hard to follow along with you. I'm sorry we aren't seeing eye to eye here, but you really are taking what I'm saying far too literally and are using ideas that are not your own to argue that WE don't know what we're talking about.

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I wrote about how cells could use human brains


No. You did not. JasRonq started that ball rolling. I don't feel like seeing if you made edits from that too, but you had nothing related to this concept once the thread started. Have some respect.

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you are either bad critique, or misunderstood what I mean. By saying I will write down, I meant getting everything into one place and than make a conclusive post later.


That's what we were doing until you suddenly got sensitive. 3 days of writing for a stranger without pay... How heartless of me. Honestly, I thought we were doing well. I told you everything I could think of to help you repair the holes in your design. You need to learn to be quiet and listen to some other views, even if it hurts. It's tough, I know, but there is no such thing as bad critique, unless I was simply bashing you. Believe me, I wasn't. Every response I made I thought long and hard about because I wanted to help. I have read each of your posts word for word, unless you went back to change more. For a while I thought you were willing to learn, but your last two replies were rather heartless and I now see you were like me when I was an utter novice: I thought I had something "new" and "different", when the only thing that was new was me, and that's not so special.

I'm sorry you do not agree with my views, but I'm not at your whim. I saw what I thought were flaws in your design, and I pointed them out because I feel you need to address them. That's what you asked me to do.

Well... I hope you find an awesome new race that changes how we look at RTS games. Apparently you do know how to be different more than anyone else.

Good luck.

[Edited by - zyrolasting on December 11, 2009 2:35:22 PM]

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