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Alpha_ProgDes

Skill is the new grinding.....

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I'm pretty sure there some games that implement this, but I haven't seen a lot of them. So I'll throw this out there. Instead of killing 1000 orcs for 4-6 hours, just to level up to fight in the Ice Cave, why not:
  1. [A] kill 100 orcs with headshots,
  2. [B] decapitate another 100, and
  3. [C] hit 3 out of 5 orc pressure points with melee attacks.
For each "skill" you master you get a "reward":
  1. [A] medal,
  2. [B] orc head to drape on armor,
  3. [C] green aura
and a new title: start as Warrior,
  1. then accomplish [A] and become Orc Hunter,
  2. then accomplish [B] and become Orc Kamikaze Destroyer,
  3. and then accomplish [C] and become Orc Ninjitsu Annhilator
It seems more fun that way and also more rewarding.

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Ok, so what you're proposing (if I understand this correctly), you have quests that require skill, and allow you to level up much faster. The quest based system is widely used (WoW being the most well known MMO). The skill has a few problems. Most systems that require "skill" end up allowing players who use bots and macros to easily win in every encounter, because they always complete the skill requirement. Additional, how are you using skill? Timing? FPS skills? Typing speed? There are a lot of ways you can use that term.

This idea has potential, but needs refinement.

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If you want to make a skill "grinding" system, the first thing that is necessary is the ability to negate botting. To stop the bots from functioning, you have to add a degree of random elements to the game system. These random elements are plausible for humans to recognize after they play the game long enough, but they should be random enough so that bot developers will have difficulty.

They system is more fun and more rewarding, I agree. But the system can only be fun or rewarding if players do not see the skill levels of botters because they will envy these bots but cannot reach the same level as botters. People are usually envious of those better than them.

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Thats ok, you will just need to learn to say non-MMO at the start of every topic you start. Its tiring but necessary for avoiding entirely unhelpful developments in the thread.

Your idea by the way sounds a bit like something I suggested in another thread. Basically have skill leveling come from completing achievements which are unique challenges with differing difficulty and experience rewards.

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Sounds like a nice refinement of Team Fortress 2's achievement / unlock system. Each class has around 30 achievements mostly based on skilled use of the class. For each 10 you achieve, you get a milestone which unlocks a new weapon.

(though there are random item drops and a craft system too)

example: Soldier Class Achievements and Unlocks

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Quote:
Original post by JasRonq
Thats ok, you will just need to learn to say non-MMO at the start of every topic you start. Its tiring but necessary for avoiding entirely unhelpful developments in the thread.

Your idea by the way sounds a bit like something I suggested in another thread. Basically have skill leveling come from completing achievements which are unique challenges with differing difficulty and experience rewards.

Actually that's along the lines of what I was thinking. Not so much a quest (though it could be one), but, as you said, achievements or even general playing mechanics.

For instance, everytime you beat an enemy:
  • without using potions, you get 1.5x bonus experience.
  • No potions and no damage, 2.0x bonus experience.
  • No potions, no damage, and one player at 100% health, 2.5x bonus experience.
  • No potions, no damage, and two players at 100% health, 2.75x bonus experience.
  • No potions, no damage, and three players (max) at 100% health, 3.25x bonus experience.

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Quote:
skill leveling come from completing achievements which are unique challenges with differing difficulty and experience rewards.


This line is a simple abstract line that will take lots of work because the application of this simple statement is the bulk of a game. This design will is good, but to implement it at a plausible rate is difficult. That's why creating an RPG is better than an MMORPG for a simple statement but complex application.

Alpha_ProgDes, I will suggest that since we have a party of 3, that the "special" experience should be unique to the individual character while the general experience is together for the party.

Special experience is the accomplishments that the characters can possibly do.
General experience is the basic experience the characters get when they kill a monster.

Why give the special experience uniquely to the characters? This is so the player can create unique party roles for the characters.

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Quote:
Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
I'm pretty sure there some games that implement this, but I haven't seen a lot of them. So I'll throw this out there.

Instead of killing 1000 orcs for 4-6 hours, just to level up to fight in the Ice Cave, why not:
  1. [A] kill 100 orcs with headshots,
  2. [B] decapitate another 100, and
  3. [C] hit 3 out of 5 orc pressure points with melee attacks.
For each "skill" you master you get a "reward":
  1. [A] medal,
  2. [B] orc head to drape on armor,
  3. [C] green aura
and a new title: start as Warrior,
  1. then accomplish [A] and become Orc Hunter,
  2. then accomplish [B] and become Orc Kamikaze Destroyer,
  3. and then accomplish [C] and become Orc Ninjitsu Annhilator


It seems more fun that way and also more rewarding.


IT is indeed widespread, but giving more focus to this may be interesting. Achievement-related games score well with casual gamers. However, I really don't know how hardcore gamers feel about this. It is kind of limitating for people who want to go beyond that. Just my 2 cents.

I've seen progressive games where achievements increased with a variable number.
For example, 100 headshots would be followed by one with 1000 headshots, and so on. Adding difficulty levels could work too. Eyeshots :P

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Quote:
Original post by Platinum_Dragon
Quote:
skill leveling come from completing achievements which are unique challenges with differing difficulty and experience rewards.


This line is a simple abstract line that will take lots of work because the application of this simple statement is the bulk of a game. This design will is good, but to implement it at a plausible rate is difficult. That's why creating an RPG is better than an MMORPG for a simple statement but complex application.


Good thing I'm not going for an MMO. Also, it is the bulk of a game's character progression system, but not the bulk of the game. In fact you would probably call some of my other ideas the "bulk of a game" as well. :P
...


What do you guys think is the best way to present these challenges to the player?

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Well, bulk of the game is when it's more than 5% of the coding. Yeah, it's exaggerated.

Quote:
Originally from Orymus
I've seen progressive games where achievements increased with a variable number.
For example, 100 headshots would be followed by one with 1000 headshots, and so on. Adding difficulty levels could work too. Eyeshots :P


Is an example why the coding will take a while because you have to have unique codes for the different skills, but also a function that counts how much accomplishment for the reward. So overall, you need a two layer functions of coding to simplify this matter.


One way to present these challenges is to have other characters refer to previous Heroes. These characters will speak of the accomplishments of heroes of the past. It's also about a historical development for the game. You need a background. The background story is a possible way to give the player hints towards getting achievements.

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Quote:
Original post by Platinum_Dragon
Alpha_ProgDes, I will suggest that since we have a party of 3, that the "special" experience should be unique to the individual character while the general experience is together for the party.

Special experience is the accomplishments that the characters can possibly do.
General experience is the basic experience the characters get when they kill a monster.

Why give the special experience uniquely to the characters? This is so the player can create unique party roles for the characters.

I like this idea. For the sake of easier coding and gamer maintenance, I would let the player choose a discipline to grow in (ex: warrior, magician, thief, gambler). Then allow the player to grow not only the general stats, but the discipline (special) stats as well.

But we can take this one step further and have the weapon gain experience as well. Therefore a powerful weapon can be wielded by an equally powerful character (as opposed to waiting 10 hours of traveling and having 50000 rouble to buy it).

An example. My character Balsk the Mage has her weapon of choice: the Emerald Lance. As she fights with her weapon, the weapon gains experience. It goes from a standard melee weapon to one that increases magic attack power by 25% percent. As Balsk channels magic attacks thru the Lance, it's able to produce a shield at the next level up. Continued (and successful) use of the shield makes it an encompassing barrier around Balsk.

Granted I could take this concept in many different directions.

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Quote:
Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
Quote:
Original post by JasRonq
I see. Sort of besting your predecessors to earn your place.

That seems more of a MMO/XBox Achievement sort of dynamic. Or am I misunderstanding?


Thats pretty much it. XBox achievements that give your character experience instead of gamer points. You can still wear them as badges of honour though.

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I love this idea. It's taking the achievement concept to the next level -- achievements aren't just icing, they are how to get "experience". Obviously the achievements have to be tailored to the game, like a Diablo clone couldn't have a headshot achievement but it could have a "no potion" achievement. I think it's great. Run with it.

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