# Hello im new here :D

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Ok ive spent a while learning C and C++ with NO previous knowledge or experience with programming. The person who was teaching me quit making tutorials so im now stuck. The whole reason i started was so that in the future id be able to develope the mmorpg that nobody around is willing to make. I am willing to put all my time into this (50 hours a week or so) to learn but i need to know where to start if i want to reach that point. I only know the basics of C and C++ taught by thenewboston on youtube. Can somebody point me in the right direction? edit: im also looking into python as im waiting for a response to this edit: i also apologize in advance if this is the wrong section or place to be asking this @jarwulf: i know a single person cannot aceive a mmorpg i have 15 or so people willing to help me all loyal friends. Right now though we are all learning the basics and how to develope out 3d game programming skills. we just need instructions to start advancing and need to know which language we should master @@jarwulf: I know i cant just jump into mmorpg programming that would be a ridiculously large step. I just need to know where the best place to start designing basic games. [Edited by - Vex888 on February 13, 2010 2:45:35 PM]

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The usual definition of a "Massively" MORPG is a game with at least one persistent gameworld and the ability to support huge numbers of players simultaneously. Most people here and in other expert forums agree this is currently beyond the reach of single programmers let alone those with no previous experience otherwise we'd see Joe Blows everywhere releasing wowkillers but the bucketloads. Regular multiplayer games are certainly achievable though and there are even libraries and apis to ease the progress.

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This MMORPG stuff should really be added as a Sticky in "For Beginners"

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Quote:
 Original post by Vex888@jarwulf: i know a single person cannot aceive a mmorpg i have 15 or so people willing to help me all loyal friends. Right now though we are all learning the basics and how to develope out 3d game programming skills. we just need instructions to start advancing and need to know which language we should master

Other people here are more knowledgeable that me but simply having that amount of friends wouldn't be enough. These type of projects are typically handled by much larger groups of salaried programmers/designers/artists each with years of specialized experience in specific areas such as environmental modeling and network programming. They are led by experienced managers and an office environment have rigidly defined milestones and workflow. Plus there are issues and costs arise with designing and managing high server loads and infrastructure indefinitely that you're unlikely to easily find a solution for in a online tutorial. Not that you're likely to be that successful in your first go around though.

A better idea would be to focus on a simpler offline or regular multiplayer game for your first effort and build up from there rather than jump straight into a 3d MMORPG. You probably want division of labor since for example someone struggling with the complex/unintuitive 3d modeling packages that dominate the market will not want to have to worry about programming as well. The languages you mention are solid choices although there are many others you can mix and match with them. You should also look up some popular libraries and apis as well as Maya/3dMax/Blender for 3d and GIMP/Photoshop/Illustrator for 2d art.

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15 people isn't so bad I think, but 15 experienced persons.

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 Original post by szecs15 people isn't so bad I think, but 15 experienced persons.Try to search on this page, you will find a lot of discussion about the topic.

Maybe for a regular game or maybe even a 2d game like Maple Story but I get the feeling he's thinking more 3d ala WOW.

Wouldn't all the backend stuff and maintenance pretty much require more than just 15 people to make it feasible anyway?

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First off, for whatever language you go for, I always recomend getting a book on it to learn the language (I've done that, and it's worked pretty well so far). It looks like that you have the man power, cause 15 people is decent, but it all depends on what you are trying to make. In this case, your MMORPG isn't going to be easy. I'm not sure what you know about networking, but an MMORPG, once built, requires quite a bit of maintenance afterwards, with all the server computers that you're gonna have up to support the "Massively Multiplayer Online" part of the RPG. Making the game may not be the biggest problem (again, I really don't know your scale and what you are planning) but you will have a big problem in maintenance, and all that post-release stuff. So keep that in mind when you get to the making of your MMORPG.

To answer your other question of what language to master, the one that is used most widely is C++. It's up to you whether you want to go for C++ or Python.

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ok so i should start with c++ THANK YOU! :D now, i understand most of the basic elements of code up until i get to pointers and strings. Could somebody explain these in a little more detail?

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Quote:

Well, like kryotech said you can start with C++, but there are several languages to pick from. C++ is widely used in certain domains, but it does have a rather steep learning curve.

I you want to start making games as quickly as possible, perhaps something like XNA is an option. If you use it with C#, you will at least already be somewhat familiar with the language's basic syntax. O, and strings will be easy and pointers unnecessary. ;)

If you go with C++ (or any other language for that matter), it's probably best to buy a book. I'm sure the folks around here will have recommendations based on your choice of language.

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ok my problem is , i must learn to game program as fast as possible because i have a great idea to rock the mmofps world but im sure given time, somebody else will probably use my idea. Ive went through many of the C++ basics and im pretty determined to learn quickly. i have an immense amount of time on my hands also.

i found a pdf file for C++ for dummies so im going to read and reread the entire 435 page volume to further understand everything. Financial Capital is also not a problem either.

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Quote:
 Original post by Vex888ok my problem is , i must learn to game program as fast as possible because i have a great idea to rock the mmofps world but im sure given time, somebody else will probably use my idea. Ive went through many of the C++ basics and im pretty determined to learn quickly. i have an immense amount of time on my hands also.

Although having a lot of time on your hands is an important prerequisite when starting out, you should keep in mind that acquiring the skills needed to develop an MMO will easily take you 4 to 5 years of fulltime work, assuming you're starting from zero. And you won't even have started developing your game at the end of that time, you just acquired the basic skill set to attempt it. Developing a large scale MMO will take you another 3 to 4 years. That's about 8 to 9 years total. This is a long time, and a lot of things will change. You will get older and maybe lose your interest in MMOs. Technology will advance, forcing you to constantly keep up to date with cutting edge developments in addition to learning the basics. At some point you will not have that much free time anymore to devote to the project. And your team will have to follow you. The whole time.

I'm not trying to bash your idea here, but try to be realistic. Learning to program is a very fun, a very rewarding but also a very challenging endeavor. I applaud you for your enthusiasm, but don't do it for some vague MMO-something idea.

Quote:
 Original post by JarwulfMaybe for a regular game or maybe even a 2d game like Maple Story but I get the feeling he's thinking more 3d ala WOW.

Assuming we're talking about a highly experienced team of 15, knowing each other inside-out (ie. having worked together on several commercial titles), having considerable experience in efficient project management, working fulltime on the project on a paid basis, and having access to appropriate funding, then I think it is possible within a reasonable timeframe to pull off a commercial-grade WOW clone.

Whether or not the ROI is in any way positive is another question.

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UBER MMOFPS CODE:
#include <iostream>template <typename T> void print(T src[], unsigned int size){	for (unsigned int i = 0; i < size; ++i)		std::cout << src[i] << ' ';	std::cout << std::endl;}template <typename T> T* swap(T src[], unsigned int u, unsigned int v){	T tmp = src[u];	src[u] = src[v];	src[v] = tmp;	return src;}template <typename T> void permute(T src[], unsigned int n, unsigned int k=0){	T* tmp = 0;	const int size = n+k;		tmp = new T[size];	for (unsigned int i = 0; i < size; ++i)		tmp[i] = src[i];	if (n == 1) print(tmp,size);	else for (unsigned int i = 0; i < n; ++i)		permute(swap(tmp, k, k+i), n-1, k+1);	delete [] tmp;}int main(int argc, char* argv[]){	int data[] = {1,2,3};	permute(data, sizeof(data)/sizeof(data[0]));	return 0;}

Not...

The fact of the matter is that, your not going to be able to make an MMOG with "The basics of C++", a few buddies, and "The worlds greatest MMOG idea" which is what these guys here are trying to tell you here (ever so politely, probably scared of being rated down or something).
You and your team need years of experience (and I mean years) in your/their chosen field of expertise and actually working as a team (its harder than it sounds).

Quote:
 The whole reason i started was so that in the future id be able to develope the mmorpg that nobody around is willing to make.

The reasoning behind this is; For indie game developers (especially solo developers) this is practically impossible. For industry leaders, its just impractical. Believe me, your not the only one around here that can see the potential an MMOG can have, given half a chance and a few advances in technology.

Now, dont get me wrong, you can certainly aspire to creating this dream MMOG. I mean come on, arn't we all? However, in the meantime your going to have to start small, something like space invaders, pong, or breakout (Yes, that small). If your eager to get started with all the shiny graphics and chimes look up SDL or (better yet for C++ developers) SFML but i would recommend really nailing atleast one book on C++ first.

Yeah, so good luck! and don't quote me on anything :D

blah.. *mutters to self*

[Edited by - CodeCriminal on February 13, 2010 8:27:52 PM]

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ok i appreiciate the blunt honesty with everyone, and i see that its very impractible to start working on a mmo with no previous experience. I just need to know what i need to learn in C++ to start making small-scale basic games and get enough experience to work my way up the ladder in 4 or 5 years. I understand it wont happen in the course of even a few years im just saying. Point me in the right direction and i will study C++ and program small applications 50 or so hours a week until im pro at it ;) then move a tad bit bigger, mayb incorporate a few other languages.

again, i thank u guys for your responses and love the huge activity on these forums :D

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step 1: Get book on C++ and study it making small console applications as you go to get some real experiance working with C++ and if the book has excersises do them (my first C++ book was C++ From the Ground Up but I had already been programming in C++ for a few months before i borrowed it from the library).

step 2: Download SDL/SFML (you can google search them) to begin toying around with graphics there are plenty of tutorials available for both (I think SDL has more since its been around for longer).

step 3: Write a small game like the ones suggested in my last post (going back to step 1 you could actually make a few small text based games for practice, thats always good)

step 4: If you feeling brave and you are comfortable using SDL/SFML (which you should be after writing a small game or two) you could give Direct3D or OpenGL a go (hardcore dude :P) and see how you fair with either of those.

steps between: PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, ALL THE TIME! :D. Programming is a very enjoyable and rewarding art form, no matter what your doing whether its writing small, seemingly boring applications to full blown games. I admit sometimes it will make you want to pull your hair out and sometimes you will feel like giving up because you feel you are not "smart" enough or something. But never give in! Theres a saying "When the going gets tough, the tough get going" be tough :D

Yeah, so those are usually the steps recommended to people in your situation but in all honesty I don't think anyone really follows those steps perfectly. They are more like guidelines that you can skip over or go back to at any time you feel the need.

Hope that helps

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thank you for the much needed advice :D i think those steps should be stickied O.o

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My red hot tip for today:
Don't mention the term MMORPG on these forums, you will likely get flamed for it.

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