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Cacks

VC++ 2005 vs 2008 / 2010

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Hi guys, Haven't been doing much C++ programming for a while, been working with Eclipse mainly. Gona get back into writing some games. I have VC++ 2005 standard but compared with Eclipse its crap. Its too slow to write ANSI C++; the intellisense is rubbish, there are no refactoring options, doesn't show errors where they occur in the code etc. I'm wondering if newer versions of Visual C++ are any better? I know VS 2010 isn't out till March, but would it be worth upgrading? Or will it be just as slow to develop with? cheers

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Quote:

Its too slow to write ANSI C++;

Um, what?

Quote:

the intellisense is rubbish, there are no refactoring options,

VS has always had bad intellisense, unfortunately. VS 2010 improves it to a degree. There are also add-ins, like VAX, that can help.

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doesn't show errors where they occur in the code etc.

Yes it does. It just doesn't do it as-you-type until 2010.

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I'm wondering if newer versions of Visual C++ are any better?

Yes.

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Or will it be just as slow to develop with?

I still don't know what you mean by "slow to develop" with, I suspect it's either because your machine isn't powerful enough to run it well (it does consume a lot of resources) -- in which case VS 2010 will probably be worse for you -- or you just don't know how to use it effectively, coming from Eclipse which operates differently. Your problem descriptions are too vague.

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Hi jpetrie,

developing in C++ is slow compared with other languages such as Java. Developing a class in C++ requires more development time than in other languages like Java. The only reason its used in Games is because it gives you direct access to graphics & audio apis.

I'd like it if VC++ would automate more of the tedious tasks such as refactoring and allow me to develop quicker by giving me good intellisense with well document code. VC++ 2005 doesn't help me much here. The more code creation/manipulation an IDE does then the quicker I can develop,

cheers

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Original post by Cacks
developing in C++ is slow compared with other languages such as Java. Developing a class in C++ requires more development time than in other languages like Java. The only reason its used in Games is because it gives you direct access to graphics & audio apis.
Don't make such claims as if they were fact. Java is faster for some people, yourself included obviously. I on the other hand can develop C++ code much faster than I could write Java code.

Calling the more recent version of Visual Studio "crap" is not going to get you far either. It's an extremely popular choice nowdays so a lot of people seem to disagree with you. I am quite happy with VS2008 thus far.

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developing in C++ is slow compared with other languages such as Java. Developing a class in C++ requires more development time than in other languages like Java.

This, however, isn't what you implied. You implied that developing C++ with Visual Studio was slow, not that developing in C++ itself was slow, period. It is the latter assertion that made little sense to me.

C++ is a relatively low-level language, in terms of abstraction, and such languages are generally less "efficient" (for some definition) in terms of development time than higher level languages. But again, that isn't what your post read like at all.

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The only reason its used in Games is because it gives you direct access to graphics & audio apis.

This statement is incorrect on a number of levels; C++ is used outside of games often enough, although other languages certainly are as well. C++ is still used primarily by commercial PC/console game developers for a number of reasons, but "direct access to graphics and audio APIs" isn't really the crux of the issue. Besides, APIs can be developed that are just as "direct" (which is a relatively meaningless term) for other languages.

Quote:

I'd like it if VC++ would automate more of the tedious tasks such as refactoring and allow me to develop quicker by giving me good intellisense with well document code. VC++ 2005 doesn't help me much here. The more code creation/manipulation an IDE does then the quicker I can develop,

Well, it doesn't do that. The situation improves incrementally as new versions of VS are released, but the fact remains that C++ is a complex and difficult-to-parse language (especially for the highly interactive rates required to implement most useful intellisense-type features) and tools don't do a very good job of it. Even Visual Assist breaks down under very complex C++, although it is certainly far and away superior to the built-in intellisense systems in the currently released Visual Studio SKUs.

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Original post by jpetrie
Quote:

doesn't show errors where they occur in the code etc.

Yes it does. It just doesn't do it as-you-type until 2010.


First time I saw this in VS2010 it made me so happy; normally I type, bash F7 and fix the errors the compiler finds; now the background stuff finds it for me and I can correct in advance.

VS2010 = <3
VS2010 + VAX = <3 <3 <3 [grin]

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I've been testing a VS add-in called Refactor! for C++ lately. Not much to report yet, but it does seem to handle basic tasks at least.

[Edited by - Washu on February 16, 2010 3:57:12 PM]

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Original post by Sneftel
Once again there's not much there for the C++ programmer.


You're not serious right? Visual Studio 2010 has

1) C++0x support for lambdas, decltype, auto, r-value references
2) Concurrency Runtime providing, quite frankly a fairly awesome task-level parallelism library akin to TBB, right out of the box.
3) Vastly improved Intellisense support, probably better than Visual Assist
4) Phenomenal parallel debugging improvements and concurrency visualization tools
5) Many other minor usability enhancements.

MSVC 10 is going to be made of pure win IMO.

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Hi iMalc,

Quote:
Don't make such claims as if they were fact

C++ would requires that I write more code to create a class than in Java or C# therefore it is slower to develop in.

Quote:
Calling the more recent version of Visual Studio "crap" is not going to get you far either. It's an extremely popular choice nowdays so a lot of people seem to disagree with you

I didn't call the more recent version of visual studio crap. I said that VC++ 2005 is crap. In my option compared with Eclipse & Netbeans for Java it is. No one with any sense would develop in C++ if they could avoid it. Just because people buy it doesn't mean its good. Their best bet for writing games for Windows is VC++. I don't know any other business apart from graphics orientated ones where C++ would be used. Maybe only systems with C++ legacy systems.



hi jpetrie,

C++ is used outside of games often enough[/uote]
I said for games.

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other languages certainly are as well

Can you name me big commercial Windows games which don't use VC++ as their main language? No Flash games.

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C++ is still used primarily by commercial PC/console game developers for a number of reasons

Name the other reasons? I bet there aren't that many.
- Console developers have to write their games in C++, what else are they going to use?
- PC developers hardly use VC++ because of its threading, networking, I/O, garbage collection etc abilities. If I wasn't interested in writing code that I can port to other systems I'd probably investigate using C#.

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APIs can be developed that are just as direct for other languages

If you want access to Hardware APIs using other languages, you're going to need wrap C++ code in that language e.g. Java OpenGL.

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the fact remains that C++ is a complex and difficult-to-parse language

I agree, its bloated, overly complicated, its slow to develop with.


I would assume you both are solely VC++ developers. I have noticed that people who use particular technologies won't accept they have faults. I worked with a javascript programmer who argued with me that javascript is the most import language at the minute. What was he talking about! Its a complete crap heap for many reasons.


Bottom line - C++ is slow to produce anything with, VC++ doesn't do much to alleviate the situation.


hi phantom,

yeah it is annoying in VC++ 2005, having to compile every 2 minutes & trying to work out where the error is. It eats up a lot of time.

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