Randomozation as a counter to looking up info externally.
Author
How do you guys feel about randomization as a measure against players looking up game specific info online and using it to advance a game to their liking?
A few examples:
You may tame a wild animal as a pet. To do so you watch it to find out what food it likes and then collect a bunch and feed it. You could just look up the correct food and forgo watching the animal, or I could randomize the foods so that you are forced to watch.
You may cast spells with runes or create potions with ingredients. The recipe is not needed to complete the action though it takes out the trial and error. You can look up the correct combination or I can randomize the ingredients and runes so that you have to find the correct combination through trial and error or searching for then written down.
Im sure there are plenty of other situations this could be done, and with some though I'm sure it wouldn't hurt the intended game play. How do you feel though about taking away, or at least complicating the player's ability to look up and use information from online?
Note that this has implication beyond in game rules, for instance, encrypting game files so the player can't modify game stats, rules, etc, as easily is a very similar situation.
Are you planning a single or multiplayer game?
If it is single player, I have to ask why bother?
I would think your first priority should be to the players that will play the game as intended. If you're sure that you can make a random system that works exactly as well as a designed system, than I guess it doesn't hurt anyone. But I would think it would be a lot easier to just design a system yourself, rather than trying to balance a random system. Then you can pick values that make sense for each animal. Otherwise I may find a wolf that only eats walnuts and flowers, or a rabbit that eats cows.
Its supposed to be a game, and its supposed to be fun. What if 20% of your players are short for time and hate waiting and watching the animals? What do you have to gain by forcing them to sit through that?
The same goes for encrypting your game files. Why? 95% of players would not bother, and will play the game as you intend. If 5% of players want edit your file and give themselves 100 pets and 9999 lives then let them. Heck why not put in a console and let players edit the game rules if that is what they enjoy. I love to play games the right way without internet spoilers, but some of the most fun times I've had is going back through a game I've beat with infinite health and infinite ammo rocket-launchers, or maybe some players want to go back through a second time and look up any content they may have missed.
Your question basically reads to me "How can I prevent my players from doing what they want to do, and how can I force them to do what they don't want to do?", and it just seems like the wrong way to approach a game.
Obviously if you're intending an MMO or something you would have a reason to want to keep some things harder to achieve, but for offline games just let people enjoy them as they wish.
If it is single player, I have to ask why bother?
I would think your first priority should be to the players that will play the game as intended. If you're sure that you can make a random system that works exactly as well as a designed system, than I guess it doesn't hurt anyone. But I would think it would be a lot easier to just design a system yourself, rather than trying to balance a random system. Then you can pick values that make sense for each animal. Otherwise I may find a wolf that only eats walnuts and flowers, or a rabbit that eats cows.
Its supposed to be a game, and its supposed to be fun. What if 20% of your players are short for time and hate waiting and watching the animals? What do you have to gain by forcing them to sit through that?
The same goes for encrypting your game files. Why? 95% of players would not bother, and will play the game as you intend. If 5% of players want edit your file and give themselves 100 pets and 9999 lives then let them. Heck why not put in a console and let players edit the game rules if that is what they enjoy. I love to play games the right way without internet spoilers, but some of the most fun times I've had is going back through a game I've beat with infinite health and infinite ammo rocket-launchers, or maybe some players want to go back through a second time and look up any content they may have missed.
Your question basically reads to me "How can I prevent my players from doing what they want to do, and how can I force them to do what they don't want to do?", and it just seems like the wrong way to approach a game.
Obviously if you're intending an MMO or something you would have a reason to want to keep some things harder to achieve, but for offline games just let people enjoy them as they wish.
Author
Yes, I meant in a single player game. In multiplayer games that would be an unfair advantage and need to be fixed.
Also randomization could simply mean changing the IDs of otherwise equal items. Cow eating rabbits would be an issue requiring a little more care but also not one that would take much thought.
Overall I think so long as the randomization is a fairly superficial obfuscation it wouldn't be likely to mess up game play or require much coding time. It would be an easy addition. And you are right, the most effort should be put into players playing as intended, but since this is an easy and quick mechanic to use it would not detract from those effort. Hence my asking about it here.
I think in the end it is probably better to just treat the gamer as an adult and leave him the responsibility to enjoy his experience as he wishes.
Also randomization could simply mean changing the IDs of otherwise equal items. Cow eating rabbits would be an issue requiring a little more care but also not one that would take much thought.
Overall I think so long as the randomization is a fairly superficial obfuscation it wouldn't be likely to mess up game play or require much coding time. It would be an easy addition. And you are right, the most effort should be put into players playing as intended, but since this is an easy and quick mechanic to use it would not detract from those effort. Hence my asking about it here.
I think in the end it is probably better to just treat the gamer as an adult and leave him the responsibility to enjoy his experience as he wishes.
Quote:Original post by JasRonq
I think in the end it is probably better to just treat the gamer as an adult and leave him the responsibility to enjoy his experience as he wishes.
Agreed. Isn't this how you want the games you enjoy to treat you? There is a use for randomizing things that can otherwise be looked up, and that's when determining this information is a major part of the game and the player is likely to play the game more than once - it would keep the game fresh by preventing the player from accidentally remembering something that would spoil the game.
Guides aren't that horrible, they let people explore more of your game (read they get to see/experience more of what you worked so hard to make) at their own pace. If someone wants to follow a full guide to finish your game, or even hack to get around more easily etc, so what? It's how they want to play the game to enjoy it (or ruin it for themselves).
Agreed that this only applies to single player games, when you throw more than 1 player in a shared environment then you want all things to be fair.
And to be brutally honest, if I really enjoy a game (or even part of an otherwise so-so game) I won't be looking at a guide, but if the game is meh, and I just want to see more of it I'll go to a guide, and if there's no guide I just don't play it as the effort(time)/reward just isn't there for me since I'm getting too old these days :)
Agreed that this only applies to single player games, when you throw more than 1 player in a shared environment then you want all things to be fair.
And to be brutally honest, if I really enjoy a game (or even part of an otherwise so-so game) I won't be looking at a guide, but if the game is meh, and I just want to see more of it I'll go to a guide, and if there's no guide I just don't play it as the effort(time)/reward just isn't there for me since I'm getting too old these days :)
I'm against it. Personally I tend to use game faqs because most games don’t give you enough in game information. I’m tired of games punishing me for not having 100% exploration of every dungeon on the first pass, and forcing me to spend hours performing trial and error to accomplish a task.
For instance in your example what is the fun about trying to figure out which of 20 different food types to feed to my pet rabbit to get it grow the way I want it to? Why can’t I just speak to an expert or read up on it in a book in the library?
I could just talk to an animal trainer about raising rabbits and he tells me
“Well rabbits will eat almost any plant or vegetable. But if you want to raise them healthy you want to feed them plenty of carrots and cabbage, they like a bit of variety so try and mix it up a bit. If you want to give them a speed boost mix a few sugar cubes into their food not much or you’ll weaken their teeth. And if you want them to have strong sharp teeth then give them the occasional stick to gnaw on. Now of course supposedly there is sub species of rabbit known as the vorpal bunny but if you want to learn about them you’d need to speak to a meta-animal expert I think there is one in the library of Kent.”
That gives all the info I need to raise a rabbit gets added to my codex so I can look it whenever I want to and even lets me know there is a special kind of rabbit.
For instance in your example what is the fun about trying to figure out which of 20 different food types to feed to my pet rabbit to get it grow the way I want it to? Why can’t I just speak to an expert or read up on it in a book in the library?
I could just talk to an animal trainer about raising rabbits and he tells me
“Well rabbits will eat almost any plant or vegetable. But if you want to raise them healthy you want to feed them plenty of carrots and cabbage, they like a bit of variety so try and mix it up a bit. If you want to give them a speed boost mix a few sugar cubes into their food not much or you’ll weaken their teeth. And if you want them to have strong sharp teeth then give them the occasional stick to gnaw on. Now of course supposedly there is sub species of rabbit known as the vorpal bunny but if you want to learn about them you’d need to speak to a meta-animal expert I think there is one in the library of Kent.”
That gives all the info I need to raise a rabbit gets added to my codex so I can look it whenever I want to and even lets me know there is a special kind of rabbit.
I like the idea. It's a nice personal touch, might add a little replayability, and shield the player from accidental spoilers. If you have confidence in your game, and are capable of building trust in the player that the game is non-retarded and the solution is actually discoverable/logical, there is no downside to making things harder to look up.
Quote:Original post by karwostsWhat if 20% of Halo players hate shooting at stuff before they can see more scenery? What do you have to gain by forcing them to sit through that?
Its supposed to be a game, and its supposed to be fun. What if 20% of your players are short for time and hate waiting and watching the animals? What do you have to gain by forcing them to sit through that?
What you are arguing for is a fast-forward button for skipping the game, IMO.
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