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Wavinator

Flipping between God and Mortal

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Wavinator    2017
Procedurally building a game world, wondering how / if to tie together world generation directly with in-game gameplay (apologies in advance for treading over some previously mentioned themes)... A couple of weeks ago I posted about procedurally generating history for a space game, looking for ways to make history more relevant to the player. Then I was mainly looking to create random settings for the game, which has you involved as an individual character. But I've been working on the sim and seeing possibilities. Although early and abstract, there's some of the tension and drama of watching a race: Civs arise in different environments, have stats which control responses to events and fight wars, rise up a tech tree, and either ultimately become spacefaring tech gods or stagnate and go extent. It can be fun to watch (maybe depending on your level of uber-geekiness :P). Like any story you don't know who will survive or how things will turn out, but the stats give you some idea of what's in store (e.g., you see an ultra aggressive species with a strong desire to explore and expand amid a bunch of low tech neighbors, or two highly xenophobic species arise near one another and evolve to the point of wielding space-time altering weapons). Instead of being something you watch, I've been edging toward an old idea I once floated here of playing both an agent within the simulation and one outside it. Gods and mortals might work as a theme, although (stealing from the pnp RPG Sufficiently Advanced) you could even be agents from some powerful, god-tech possessing secret agency. Do you see any way of blending these two vastly different views? How would you balance them? One thought I had would be that the god view would be just that-- omniscience. If you wanted to change something, you'd have to play a character, say maybe running around destroying threats or saving folks. Or I thought maybe you'd store up something each "incarnation," somehow achieving things as a mortal that let you unleash powers as a god-- transporting solar systems out of the path of supernova blasts and such. If I haven't gone off the deep end with this one[grin], what do you think?

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Palidine    1315
I believe one of the Baulder's Gate games (or something that plays exactly the same) had a character that could basically switch into god mode which was a super powerful demon form. The mechanic was: build up enough <some resource> -> activate demon mode -> mode last proportionate to the amount of <some resource> you've built up (which has a cap of how much you can hold at once).

In a God of War model enemies would drop/expel orbs of resource when you kill them: different amounts for different enemy types. This would fill a bar that is activatible after a certain threshold and capped at a higher level. So: you can activate once the bar is more than 50% full but the effect lasts in proportion to how much is left in the bar

So in your game model you have some similar build-up god points mechanic. After a certain threshold you can spend those points essentially on god-powers.

You can also take the SimCity approach where god-mode is free before you start building your city. After you start building your city you still have the god-powers available (terriform tools) but they now cost in-game resources (dollars for SimCity) and they are very expensive.

-me

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Ghostknight    166
Hello Wavinator,

Just read your post. Location comes to mind. Are you planning planet structural missions from each planet for your mortal to become a God like race or having the God like character become a mortal when he so choose for different missions between planets or on a single planet in the solar system. If the solar system you are currently working is our own?

Your idea is plausible of working out. Like you said fliiping the characters to work as one or as a team makes it a slight challenge. Have you come up with a sypnosis for your idea?

I would like to see large areas to run around in with transportation devices or at least with God like powers be able to transport on a whim.

Will you be using Norse, Greek, Roman, characters for your game or new ones?

For an example you have Hercules a son of him or even have someone send Hercules transported to the future and fight new type of creatures on some or all of our planets in our solar system. You might use a CAUSE AND EFFECT type system. Just a thought to help you get some ideas rolling.

Weapons, Items, Armour, Accessories, Allies, Transportation if any, Levels or Area/locations. From ancient history ideas or futuristic ideas or how how both.
Maybe you can fuse ancient weapons to new futuristic weapons for certain missions. Or none of the above.

You could try putting Jason and The Argonauts, Sinbad and the 7 Seas, Clash of the Titans, Hercules, Troy, Gladiator type stories rolled up into one.

The characters, the creatures, the travel, the allies being made, the allies being broke,

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Silvermyst    113
The Forgotten Realms saga of Elminster has gods infuse certain mortals with some of their power, creating avatars on the surface of the world.

As a god, you could have one or more of these chosen followers infused with your power. They would have above-average talents, but would still be mortal. Losing one could momentarily diminish your powers. And perhaps their accomplishments could gain you power (for example, by conversions).

As a god, you could watch. As a chosen mortal, you could act. It might be more interesting to not have direct control over the mortals. Maybe you need to study them first, see which ones are deserving of your blessing (and will further your cause).

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Wavinator    2017
Quote:
Original post by Silvermyst
As a god, you could watch. As a chosen mortal, you could act. It might be more interesting to not have direct control over the mortals. Maybe you need to study them first, see which ones are deserving of your blessing (and will further your cause).


This sounds cool and makes me think of Populus a bit. I'd worry a bit, though, that you'd identify much more with being a god than a mortal, particularly if you couldn't control them. You might easily fall into a "if you want something right, got to do it yourself" mentality if the mortals won't act as you will. As if you get any powers as a god you're not going to identify with the affairs of mortals, as their concerns will pale before yours.

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Wavinator    2017
Quote:
Original post by Palidine
So in your game model you have some similar build-up god points mechanic. After a certain threshold you can spend those points essentially on god-powers.

You can also take the SimCity approach where god-mode is free before you start building your city. After you start building your city you still have the god-powers available (terriform tools) but they now cost in-game resources (dollars for SimCity) and they are very expensive.



THanks for the examples. I suppose part of my difficulty is in figuring out who the heck you are. Your demon example is good because it frames expectations-- you probably expect to be able to burn stuff with fire or possess people or whatever.

Being a deity is far more unbounded.

I think I like the build up god point mechanic. What about a reincarnation motif mixed with some of the moral choices gameplay you get in Bioware-style RPGs? What if you were building up "energies" throughout a mortal life which get unleashed when you die, allowing you to change the world map with the strength of whatever you've experienced/absorbed?

A basic dichotomy might be powers of creation / destruction, though I don't know if it would be smart to be that simple about it. But it would be easy to understand: Do lots of what the game defines as evil, get the power to destroy world; do what the game defines as good, create and mold life.

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Wavinator    2017
Quote:
Original post by Ghostknight
Are you planning planet structural missions from each planet for your mortal to become a God like race or having the God like character become a mortal when he so choose for different missions between planets or on a single planet in the solar system. If the solar system you are currently working is our own?


At the moment I'd like to steer clear of highly structured missions partly because the game universe is entirely procedurally generated. There are no fixed locations-- the galaxy map, star systems, planet surfaces (what I have done so far, interiors to come) exist only when the game generates them, which makes some of the precise scripting of a mission problematic unless the level is entirely secondary to the mission.

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Have you come up with a sypnosis for your idea?


Not one that hasn't shifted every time I see a new possibility. :P Adventure / life-sim in the future mostly describes it so far, with the rationale that I wanted the scope of a 4X game (like Civ or Master or Orion) mixed with the personal experience of an RPG.

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I would like to see large areas to run around in with transportation devices or at least with God like powers be able to transport on a whim.


Alien artifacts are a great way I can see this working. Along this same vein another approach is not to allow the player to be a god but to have the "gods" in the form of some transcendent power on the player's side. Maybe an idea like the demon doors in Fable could work, in that the creators of the universe left behind servants that want something in exchange for some massive power, like moving a planet to another star system or editing the time line to erase a menacing civilization.

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Will you be using Norse, Greek, Roman, characters for your game or new ones?


New ones. I just finished a random name generator that works off of structured patterns and think the results could be strong enough to name places, items and even heroes and villains from bygone eras, all procedurally.

Thanks for the ideas!

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Silvermyst    113
Quote:
Original post by Wavinator
This sounds cool and makes me think of Populus a bit. I'd worry a bit, though, that you'd identify much more with being a god than a mortal, particularly if you couldn't control them. You might easily fall into a "if you want something right, got to do it yourself" mentality if the mortals won't act as you will. As if you get any powers as a god you're not going to identify with the affairs of mortals, as their concerns will pale before yours.

Keep the godly powers (at least in the very beginning) reserved to infusing a handful of mortals with (minor) powers. As the mortals do their thing your powers would grow, but at all times those powers would be more effectively used in infusing more mortals to move mountains than in moving them yourself.

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Diodor    517
Holy Trinity, Batman! I'm against it. Knowing what you're going to find kind of spoils the alure of exploring strange new worlds and going where no tentacled monster...

However if you code a god mode galaxy watching module, record the galaxy evolution from multiple points of view and hide the recordings in ancient ruins and the like, with the point of view corresponding to the ancient empire the ruins belong to.

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Wavinator    2017
Quote:
Original post by Silvermyst
Keep the godly powers (at least in the very beginning) reserved to infusing a handful of mortals with (minor) powers. As the mortals do their thing your powers would grow, but at all times those powers would be more effectively used in infusing more mortals to move mountains than in moving them yourself.


Hmmm... that's a different direction than what I'd planned but it has appeal, particularly in that mortals could suffer all manner of fates without you necessarily being destroyed. I'm going to have to explore this some more.

Do you think there'd be any negative consequence to being able to be one of the mortals from time to time, though? It seems a game design law that the more of something you have the less depth you can add to it. So if you had many mortals you couldn't really drop into any one of their lives in depth, and thus the types of situations you can depict really get pared down to those appropriate for grand strategy (ehh... I think anyway).

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Original post by Diodor
Holy Trinity, Batman!


LOL :D

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Knowing what you're going to find kind of spoils the alure of exploring strange new worlds and going where no tentacled monster...


You have a point there and it's one that has worried me. But do you think the issue of scale changes this a bit? What I mean is that when you see the galaxy evolve it's interactions at a highly macro level, only about 100 x 100 "sectors." I've been experimenting with anywhere from 10 to 100 races arising and interacting. Races can become extinct and be replaced over the ages as well. So are you really going to remember all but the most memorable? If a species dies out say in the upper left of the map (without the specific sector being mentioned) are you really going to remember where their ruins will be, or what tech level they'll be?

And technically, nothing stops me from generating a few more "turns" of change and interaction after you choose to start.

It seems to me that it would actually orient you better. Like knowing that there's a place called "Red Mountain" in a game like Morrowind, I'd think seeing the rise of heavies or mysterious "ancient ones" would get you up to speed exploring even more, wouldn't it?



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However if you code a god mode galaxy watching module, record the galaxy evolution from multiple points of view and hide the recordings in ancient ruins and the like, with the point of view corresponding to the ancient empire the ruins belong to.


This sounds good but how would you give context to the events you'd be watching. You'd see empires A and B interact, one losing territory to the other, but wouldn't the "recordings" (which I'm assuming here are the relating of events) be key to giving context to what you're seeing?

Or maybe I'm not understanding you.

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Original post by Ghostknight
Great Ideas Wavinator.


Thanks for taking the time to read!

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Diodor    517
Quote:
Original post by Wavinator
So are you really going to remember all but the most memorable? If a species dies out say in the upper left of the map (without the specific sector being mentioned) are you really going to remember where their ruins will be, or what tech level they'll be?


The problem is the player will be getting a pretty good idea of what he _won't_ find in the game history. If the history contains some surprising and interesting events the player discovers mid game, well, it _might_ also contain all sort of other surprising events.

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This sounds good but how would you give context to the events you'd be watching. You'd see empires A and B interact, one losing territory to the other, but wouldn't the "recordings" (which I'm assuming here are the relating of events) be key to giving context to what you're seeing?


Context is provided by the playing the game: the player has just visited the stars he sees in the recording, salvaged the wrecks of old ships destroyed in ancient battles, fought surviving automated defense systems or stranded space monsters left behind after their swarm overcame some hapless planet and moved on. Everything in the recording is either vivid in his memory or a few hyperjumps from visiting the actual sites if he hadn't before.

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I wouldn't allow rapid switching between mortal and god. I do like the idea though. I would have the player be a member of a god race or a race with god level tech. they would be able to inhabit a mortal body, but that would remove their god powers. You would only be able to inhabit a body once, be it for a short period or an entire lifetime, otherwise the player could go into god mode to tweak things that they didn't like.

Quite why the player would choose to give up the powers is an interesting question. I think I would do it for the experience, but I'm not sure if the general player would. Presumably the god-mode would be quite detached and impersonal, even if they can intervene it would most likely only be on the level of worlds or civilisations. I would actively prevent the god-mode player from interacting at a smaller scale than this even if they want to. This would give them a reason to play as a mortal.

You would certainly need to force every player to do so once for a decent amount of time so that they can see the possibilities open to them as a mortal that aren't as a god. This could quite easily be framed as a right of passage enforced by the other members of your race.

The next question becomes why do you want the player to be able to play as a mortal as well as a god? Without the artificial restrictions discussed above a god could do anything a mortal could and no "flipping" would be needed.

I imagine that the player being a permanant god would be very different to the game that you wanted to make, and that alone is reason enough to avoid it.

Having the player be a mortal opens possibilities to explore areas like mortality (that was somewhat circular reasoning there) and human relationships in ways that a god couldn't. The problem here is that in general games have thus far been absolutely lousy at this. That being said I did think your idea about letting the player jump into an older character had potential in this direction.

Just a few thoughts.

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Wavinator    2017
Quote:
Original post by Diodor
I guess something like http://www.biblewalks.com/info/Empires.html that looks good but doesn't give away the specific details of what actually happens and leaves that for the player to discover wouldn't hurt the game's sense of exploring the unknown.


That's perfect and exactly what I had in mind! It's very much like the replay that they used to have in the old Civilization games (not sure why it disappeared, but it was really intriguing to watch).

And what about this: It would note great events-- major migrations, battles, inventions, revolutions, etc. Each of these would be clickable, and depending on your level of power you'd be able to edit one or more by creating a character and participating. You could even allow the player to create "alternate timelines" by allowing them to rewind and replay certain events.

The game would thus be saving specific map states and random number seeds, taking player input, and playing forward using the same rules throughout.




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Wavinator    2017
Quote:
Original post by Tim Ingham-Dempster
I wouldn't allow rapid switching between mortal and god.


Agreed 100%. You need to have incentive for each.

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I would have the player be a member of a god race or a race with god level tech.


Makes sense. For a long time now I've been halfheartedly kicking around the idea of making the player a member of a secret society, sort of a descendant of ancient alien tech gods. I've never been totally happy with it because I want you to have the freedom to pursue your own goals and I'm thus leery of hanging a huge weight around your neck. But using it would be a nice way of framing this, with the caveat that although you might be an ancient you're still trapped in a mortal body.

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they would be able to inhabit a mortal body, but that would remove their god powers. You would only be able to inhabit a body once, be it for a short period or an entire lifetime, otherwise the player could go into god mode to tweak things that they didn't like.


That's a great idea. The god powers come out in the interstices between life and death.

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Quite why the player would choose to give up the powers is an interesting question. I think I would do it for the experience, but I'm not sure if the general player would.


Okay, what if changing things as a god depleted you and the only way to get your power back was to live as a mortal? Mortals generate life energy, for instance, and gods use life energy to do their works.

Life energy could come in several flavors, too. Maybe not just the light/dark dichotomy, but more morally varied deeds as a mortal could generate different types of energy-- say clear acts of altruism, savagery or selfishness.

Given how much trouble it would be to detect the morality of player actions I'd have to award it like experience points and tie it to set situations, though. I don't know if that would work with the more freeform sandbox gameplay I have in mind, unless you played through the sandbox stuff just to get yourself in a good position to take on "once in a lifetime" challenges which would reward you with the life energy depending on how you resolve it.

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Presumably the god-mode would be quite detached and impersonal, even if they can intervene it would most likely only be on the level of worlds or civilisations.


Yes, you'd be more like a wrecking ball than a cutting torch as a god.

Another idea: I've been bothered by the potential pointlessness of generating events on the map which erase species. If all I wanted was history there's technically no reason not to randomly generate it all at once rather than simulate it in time.

What if, however (in keeping with the super advanced race idea) you had some sort of physical device, like an emitter, which could be built up as a mortal to improve its range and abilities. As a god these emitters would circumscribe your range of power.

With this there would be more of a point to generating things like solar flares, supernovas and other events that could wipe out species because you could determine first if the event falls within the range of your power and second if you want to expend your limited powers saving a species.

What would really be interesting is if you'd have chances to decide if you want to try to do it as a mortal or as a god. As a mortal, maybe you try to rally the resources of your people. As a god you wave your hand but use up valuable energy.

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You would certainly need to force every player to do so once for a decent amount of time so that they can see the possibilities open to them as a mortal that aren't as a god. This could quite easily be framed as a right of passage enforced by the other members of your race.


Another possibility is to give them a few powers as a god but make them run out, then let them switch to being a mortal. A strategic player would learn that they want to frame the universe a certain way-- say make sure that they have a fertile, stable environment as a god so that as a mortal they are free from bad events, like invasions or supernovas.

Playing the sim forward, btw, might also be a god power or maybe free with a limited range that can be increased. This way your omniscience becomes prescience. You can mark the date, look at coming events, then jump back to the date, go mortal, and either prevent or capitalize on events.

I think it should be somewhat fuzzy, though. Maybe you don't get knowledge of the specific event-- such as an assassination-- but rather the notion of potential / magnitude, that "something momentous" has happened to alter the flow of events.

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I imagine that the player being a permanant god would be very different to the game that you wanted to make, and that alone is reason enough to avoid it.


That's it. My motive for a long time has been to experience a Civilization-like epic scope from a more personal RPG perspective, so that's the only excuse I have. :)

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Having the player be a mortal opens possibilities to explore areas like mortality (that was somewhat circular reasoning there) and human relationships in ways that a god couldn't. The problem here is that in general games have thus far been absolutely lousy at this. That being said I did think your idea about letting the player jump into an older character had potential in this direction.


Sacrifice and loss are two big themes that I see having potential. For instance, to use an well worn science fiction trope, let's say you uncover a virulent, corrupting force while exploring. There's no real point in doing anything other than reloading if you're fixed to a mortal frame of reference. If, however, there's "life after death" you have reason to keep going.

Moreover, taking the energy building idea, what if you could recruit and somehow build up even more power as a faction? This would mean that you might want to sacrifice your character rather than bring the corruption home.

Further it might be best to say that if your race dies the game ends. So ramming an invading enemy ship actually becomes not just a noble thing to do, but something that the player can logically relate to.

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Just a few thoughts.


Haha, sorry I answered back with so many more but I think you grok the meta of this idea. Thanks a million for the feedback!

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Quote:
Original post by Wavinator
Makes sense. For a long time now I've been halfheartedly kicking around the idea of making the player a member of a secret society, sort of a descendant of ancient alien tech gods. I've never been totally happy with it because I want you to have the freedom to pursue your own goals and I'm thus leery of hanging a huge weight around your neck. But using it would be a nice way of framing this, with the caveat that although you might be an ancient you're still trapped in a mortal body.


I was playing around with something similar in a concept design a while back but never got it to work. Also I think it would skew the mortal part of the game too much towards waiting for the next bout of godhood.

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Okay, what if changing things as a god depleted you and the only way to get your power back was to live as a mortal? Mortals generate life energy, for instance, and gods use life energy to do their works.


Again though, this makes the mortal part of the game feel like a chore to earn apotheosis.

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Life energy could come in several flavors, too. Maybe not just the light/dark dichotomy, but more morally varied deeds as a mortal could generate different types of energy-- say clear acts of altruism, savagery or selfishness.

Given how much trouble it would be to detect the morality of player actions I'd have to award it like experience points and tie it to set situations, though. I don't know if that would work with the more freeform sandbox gameplay I have in mind, unless you played through the sandbox stuff just to get yourself in a good position to take on "once in a lifetime" challenges which would reward you with the life energy depending on how you resolve it.


I have no idea how this would work in code, but if you can think of a way to do it without becoming too reliant on scripting it could be quite cool.

Quote:

Another idea: I've been bothered by the potential pointlessness of generating events on the map which erase species. If all I wanted was history there's technically no reason not to randomly generate it all at once rather than simulate it in time.

What if, however (in keeping with the super advanced race idea) you had some sort of physical device, like an emitter, which could be built up as a mortal to improve its range and abilities. As a god these emitters would circumscribe your range of power.

With this there would be more of a point to generating things like solar flares, supernovas and other events that could wipe out species because you could determine first if the event falls within the range of your power and second if you want to expend your limited powers saving a species.

What would really be interesting is if you'd have chances to decide if you want to try to do it as a mortal or as a god. As a mortal, maybe you try to rally the resources of your people. As a god you wave your hand but use up valuable energy.


My first thought here was that this would be a problem. The player would spend all their time building up the device and not playing through the adventures as a mortal, or at least not paying attention.

My second thought was that this is kind of like the influence system in Black and White. That led me to think about how you gain worship in B&W, by performing miracles in front of villagers. I think the exact opposite system might work well here.

The player can only generate influence for their god-self by promoting the religion that worships them as a mortal. They promote it as a mortal, it doesn't worship them as a mortal, that may have been unclear. Whilst being a priest in that religion might seem the only way to accomplish this, it isnt. In fact it isn't even a particularly good one. The effective ways to promote the religion I can think of are:

1) Become a famous pirate/admiral/rock star/architect and tell people in the inevitable interviews/award speeches/pirate conventions that its all down to your faith in the god{god-self here}.

2) Become a powerful politician and use your power to promote the religion that worships your god-self.

3) Become rich and donate huge amounts of money to the religion that worships your god-self and its support organisations.

Any mortal life would probably encompass all three to a greater or lesser degree.

These would all push the player into doing interesting things in the sandbox, which is one of the big challenges of a sandbox game, but they wouldn't force the player down any one path.

I think it would be quite cool (not to mention ego-soothing) to visit your own temples from time to time. I'd also love to hear NPCs talking about and worshiping my god-self. I really hope there are no psychologists on GameDev.

I also had the thought that you could send worship to other gods instead of yourself, although why you would want to escapes me at the moment.

This gave me an interesting half-thought. What if the god-race had developed massively destructive weapons/powers and decided that any major fallings-out would do too much damage on a galactic scale. They therefore settle all of their differences as mortals. They may also have found that relationships are meaningless as gods and so take mortal form to persue them. Like I say this is only a half-thought and I haven't a clue how it would actually work, but it feels like it could have potential. This kind of ties-in with your faction idea as well.

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Another possibility is to give them a few powers as a god but make them run out, then let them switch to being a mortal. A strategic player would learn that they want to frame the universe a certain way-- say make sure that they have a fertile, stable environment as a god so that as a mortal they are free from bad events, like invasions or supernovas.


Interesting, at first this sounds like just another example of the same problem that has recurred repeatedly with this idea, that the mortal mode is just a way to earn "god points". On second thoughts though, using your god powers to make sure that your life is not interupted by such events pulls in the opposite direction: it makes the god mode serve the mortal mode, which is good. I think.

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Playing the sim forward, btw, might also be a god power or maybe free with a limited range that can be increased. This way your omniscience becomes prescience. You can mark the date, look at coming events, then jump back to the date, go mortal, and either prevent or capitalize on events.
I think it should be somewhat fuzzy, though. Maybe you don't get knowledge of the specific event-- such as an assassination-- but rather the notion of potential / magnitude, that "something momentous" has happened to alter the flow of events.


I really like this idea, lets see what the Capella system stock market will be at next year...

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Sacrifice and loss are two big themes that I see having potential. For instance, to use an well worn science fiction trope, let's say you uncover a virulent, corrupting force while exploring. There's no real point in doing anything other than reloading if you're fixed to a mortal frame of reference. If, however, there's "life after death" you have reason to keep going.

Moreover, taking the energy building idea, what if you could recruit and somehow build up even more power as a faction? This would mean that you might want to sacrifice your character rather than bring the corruption home.

Further it might be best to say that if your race dies the game ends. So ramming an invading enemy ship actually becomes not just a noble thing to do, but something that the player can logically relate to.


I'm not sure about ending the game if the player's mortal version civilisation ends, it feels like a god would be a bit beyond that. That being said I do agree that some attachment to at least one of the mortal races is a good idea. Following the worship idea above, possibly if your entire religion is wiped out the game ends? It would give the player a chance to start over and work back up from nearly nothing in most cases, but the loss of a civilisation would still be a major weakening and so something that it would be worth sacrificing a mortal life for.

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Haha, sorry I answered back with so many more but I think you grok the meta of this idea. Thanks a million for the feedback!


No worries, I enjoy thinking about this stuff. Not so much typing it all...

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