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yamahaalex37

What game engine for MMORPGRTS?

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yamahaalex37    100
You probably read the title and thought oh great not another one of these threads! But I do have a specific question that hopefully hasn't been brought up yet and was wondering what engine you guys thought would work best for this concept. I basically would like there to be an in-game map editor so that while the player is playing he can create world of his own. An example would be if in a Source game there was a very simplified version of the Hammer editor where perhaps the player could chose from a few materials (wood, stone, etc) and that would determine the texture of the players walls, and then player could select some width and heights for his walls and build buildings. Similar to source forts or natural selection but more like the Sims in that the player could define wall width and heights and create buildings, then save his maps. For the interface maybe the player would have a grid diagram laid out before him like graph paper where he could select the height and width of the walls. Obviously It would have to be a very basic in-game world editor and not allow the player to change terrain, only to add buildings onto existing terrain. The other issue is I would like the player to be able to save his custom map file and perhaps host a server so that a friend could join and download the map quickly and easily. So which engine would best allow for quick downloads of map files while connecting to server? Personally I like source alot and think the bsp files would be great for this. Im not too familiar with UDK but I do like the enhanced graphics and maybe you guys think it is better? And I know there are so many other engines out there so maybe you have some suggestions. Thanks! [Edited by - yamahaalex37 on April 10, 2010 1:47:04 PM]

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serialkiler    100
for the looks of it you have to change allot in UDK to achieve that. and wen u get it done you have to pay the UDK license. if you plan to finish this one UDK might not be the best option for it.

If u have no programing knowledge you might wanna try dxstudio
its really really easy to make something on it.

If u fell comfortable whit scripting you can try Unity 3D


dxstudio is free for non-commercial (400usd for commercial i think)
Unity 3D is free till 250k € annual revenue. (1000usd license for more than 250k)

and changing width and height will lead to stretched texture unless you provide only simple color material. one way around that is Floors first second etc etc.

btw whats your knowledge programing or CG (modeling) ?

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adrix89    135
http://www.syntensity.com:8888/tracker/overview/
Based on the cube 2 engine extended to be more moddable with the inclusion of
Google v8 javascript engine
Example of ingame editing in saurbaten(cube 2 engine)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oBDPQw6nks

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donkey breath    230
Have you tried C4? It has sculpting terrain editing and as the source is provided this should be much easier to do. If you check the license just now it is still free lifetime updates.


http://www.terathon.com/c4engine/index.php

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yamahaalex37    100
I really like what I see with the Cube 2 engine, the graphics seem nice, only problem is the terrain looks a little blocky sometimes from far away. Not sure if this would be good since I want some large scale terrains. Does anyone know how the Cube 2 engine would work in a MMO type environment? Obviously I'm not thinking about having the in game editor during MMO play (huge lag fest), but instead want players to be able to enter an instance where they can create a map then save that map, then go back into the MMO environment, find one to four players and invite them to into their personal saved user-created level instance.

Would it be easier to script the network code into Cube 2, or find another better suited MMO engine and try to develop an in game editor into that?

What about Cryengine? Specifically CryEngine 3, I recently read this in an article:
"CryENGINE 3 also introduces CryENGINE 3 Live Create. It allows developers to work with a single editor, but see and play the results in real-time on PC, PS3 and Xbox360, hooked up to a single dev PC. The engine takes care of the conversion and optimization of assets in real-time; enables instant, cross-platform changes to any part of game creation and as a result materially increases the speed, quality and significantly reduces the risk of multiplatform development."

And I know Cryengine 3 will work with MMO. Obviously I have alot to learn and a long way to go until thinking about using such an expensive engine, but maybe I can create a version of my game in Cube 2 to put together a team, gain popularity, and test the mechanics of the game.

I know alot of this sounds far fetched but like I said I just need help getting started in the right direction so I begin creating content in hopes of hiring a programmer. Example - start with crysis mod, cube 2, realm crafter, etc. I would hate wasting time creating content for another engine if Crytek 3 is the ultimate goal and you guys think it is possible. But if this all seems possible in an easier accessible engine I would be glad to start there.

[Edited by - yamahaalex37 on March 11, 2010 4:53:16 PM]

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adrix89    135
I don't think it has problem with terrain especially if you use the 6 directional height maps

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7vtsv_sauerbraten_videogames

However the maps cannot be infinite so you have to insert loading points
As for the network in a mmorpg setting it wouldn't be too hard to modify
If you limit the position updates and make the right smoothing algorithm

Also we use enet(actually more like cube2 made the library)an udp protocol that can send reliable and unreliable(mostly for postions) and automatically sequences them to make sure they are received in oder,heres some interesting reads about the different protocols in different circumstance

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=related:Gtd_oEbPY9YJ:scholar.google.com/&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=2saZS5f7MYfJ_gao7ITZCw&sa=X&oi=science_links&resnum=2&ct=sl-related&ved=0CBQQzwIwAQ

For more info contact kripken on the IRC #syntensity on FreeNode
Or use http://www.syntensity.com:8888/tracker/forum/

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serialkiler    100
Dont use FPS engines to make RTS that means lots of trouble.

And also expensive license.

Even if the game is successful porting it from cube 2 to CryEngine Means Millions of €€€

and starting in cube means changing alot of the source code.

Try one of the 2 engines i suggested and keep things realistic.

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adrix89    135
Quote:
Dont use FPS engines to make RTS that means lots of trouble.

Why?and also where did he mentioned rts? he told he wants to make mmo

Quote:
Even if the game is successful porting it from cube 2 to CryEngine Means Millions of €€€

Not really,syntensity uses Javscript for game development so you could easily prototype the gameplay

The more difficult part with be porting cube2 maps to cryEngine but even that could be done by dumping geometry and modifying it
Besides the project seems to develop pretty nicely so he might even stick with it rather then porting

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donkey breath    230
If it's a FPS engine it is geared toward FPS and you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole (e.g. it is possible but you will struggle). Using the wrong tools is a common mistake and it can set you back much more than if you properly research the tools to match them with the job.

If you are porting it from Cube to Cryengine then if you want to sell it you will be required to buy CryEngine3 and this isn't even publicly talked about so you would probably have to have a very nice bank manager (in these days???) or a lot of money under that mattress.

Try C4 as it is very open and has a FPS demo and a RTS tutorial. If you can code in C++ I'd highly recommend it. The engines serialkiller mentioned are worth a shout too.

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adrix89    135
Like I said syntensity has evolved out of the fps style game
There is nothing stopping you making whatever type of game you like
Also where in the thread does it say he wants to make an RTS?

He states that he wants an engine to be used in a mmo with high in game building capabilities
Seeing as its one of our strong points in that respect why shouldn't he check to see if it meets his needs

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serialkiler    100
Because its doesn't it even as any optimized network. Cube Is a mod engine not a game engine.

i could be a noob either and recommend realm crafter but it inst stable yet.
and will not be possible to do what you want whiteout source code rewriting.

RTS was just an example.
and btw your arent helping much


Not really,syntensity uses Javscript for game development so you could easily prototype the gameplay

The more difficult part with be porting cube2 maps to cryEngine but even that could be done by dumping geometry and modifying it
Besides the project seems to develop pretty nicely so he might even stick with it rather then porting


And by this you mean you are a total noob and u dont even know what u talking about...

i think donkey breath said it well ^^

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yamahaalex37    100
After reading an article called "Create games not game engines" or something like that, I thought indeed the best idea for this game would possibly be to start from scratch. At least for my benefit it would do a great deal in teaching me the programming concepts of developing a game, so I've started with XNA and C#. Even if I only create a 2d prototype of the final version of this game, I think it will be a great learning experience and a great way to find team members along the way. I really appreciate everyone's input so far and will likely need very much help throughout the process, so I want to keep this thread going.

Thanks alot adrix89, I like the cube2 engine a lot, and I talked to kripken theancientgoat and surprisingly they've been talking about doing very similar things with the engine. Like I said I am only attempting a 2d in order to start producing some content and find team members. If things look more promising in the direction of that engine (or if i find a programmer interested in taking any other direction) I will be more than happy to go that way. But I do see nothing wrong with a potential MMO with personal building instances working out in the C# and XNA environment, and with C++ implemented if needed. And I'm not sure about porting to cryengine, so maybe or this could be a prototype to gain a liscence. or maybe we could develop the next engine to rival theirs :) or maybe it will just be a very fun 2d or 3d open source game.

I appreciate all the help lets keep talking the possibilities and if anyone is interested in seeing a game like this succeed let me know, I can provide more information.And if you didn't know its essentialy a MMOFPSRTSRPG im aiming for where the MMO world would be static and persistent, but at any time a player could say >go back to my house, and be in a little personal loaded level saved on his computer that he could edit. then go back to the MMO world, find a friend, and connect P2P and the custom made map be loaded upon connection. Will probably be deleted from the visitors computer after the session because it will be different next time.

[Edited by - yamahaalex37 on March 13, 2010 2:57:58 PM]

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adrix89    135
Quote:
at any time a player could say >go back to my house, and be in a little personal loaded level saved on his computer that he could edit. then go back to the MMO world, find a friend, and connect P2P and the custom made map be loaded upon connection. Will probably be deleted from the visitors computer after the session because it will be different next time.


Thats pretty much how syntensity handles map creation already with local servers and server requests
Although there is no p2p connection as it creates an actual server for the map and the map is stored as an asset

I'm pretty sure this could be done if we manage to add the Xus network module originally developed for plexus(also a cube2 fork) to syntensity
Although its not stable yet
To read about the development of it:

http://this-statement-is-false.blogspot.com/2010/02/xus-rsyncbittorrentgit-approach.html

[Edited by - adrix89 on March 14, 2010 3:52:51 AM]

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yamahaalex37    100
Thanks so much for your help. I successfully created my first game in XNA. It was a great learning experience, but I think that the most important thing that I learned is that I will not be the lead programmer for this project if i want to see it completed in the next 5 years (although I will continue to learn how to program because I feel I am benefiting from it).

To let you know I do have modding/mapping/and managing experience. I have a private project development website dedicated to this game, with samples of my work. I have a design document for this game. I am looking for a programmers to share my ideas with and continue moving this project forward, even if its just here on this thread. If you are interested in joining the site however the site if your interested is http://www.just.boardoo.net/, and the gallery shows samples of my work, for an old dead mod. none of the current members are part of the Just game project, so far it is only me.

Realistically I think I am aiming for 24-64 players depending on the city size in the MMO(persistent, static world), and up to 4 players co-op in the RTS world(world where player is building things).

[Edited by - yamahaalex37 on March 15, 2010 12:47:53 PM]

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donkey breath    230
Is there a reason you are starting with XNA, other than to get it on XBox? Ogre is a rendering engine that a lot of people start with. http://www.ogre3d.org/

It's a very robust render engine and is used by a lot of professionals. There are a tonne of good books for it. Ogre can be very tiresome though with slow progress. You will sit there after 3 months of work and have something very basic, but it will be efficient code and you will have learnt a lot.

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yamahaalex37    100
I'm actually having great luck in the Cube2 engine. The guys at Syntensity are a big help. Unless someone can explain why another engine might be better I will probably stick with this engine.

Any suggestions?

[Edited by - yamahaalex37 on March 16, 2010 12:25:13 AM]

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donkey breath    230
Stick with what you are comfortable with. Doesn't matter how good an engine is or says it is, if you find one you are comfortable with and it does all you need then that is the engine for you.

Just like when you buy a car, sure a ferrari is one of the fastest but it won't work for getting the family around in it so you go with the family car (until you have the mid life crisis, then the fast cars are the option you want to choose).

[Edited by - donkey breath on March 16, 2010 4:04:23 AM]

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yamahaalex37    100
I'm still questioning the engine choice, while I like Cube2 a lot it would be nice to know it is the right choice so i don't waste too much time creating useless content.

I know Garry's mod in Source has a lot of features I think would work nice, but I'm not sure how well it would work with loading new maps quickly over p2p connection, or with 32-64 man servers. It does seem to take longer loading, buggy etc, and i want this to be a smooth game for everyone, even some lower spec computers and maybe xbox online.

Unity has also been suggested a lot, then there are other options.

Rememeber there is the MMO world which is 24-64 player community servers, then there is the rts world in which up to 4 players can connect on custom maps. Also unity has been suggested alot.

So any more input in the engine before I get too involved with Cube2?

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owiley    257
This can all be achieve thru background loading and folder watching. If you want any game like source to do it you probably going to ne to do a very extensive mod. You would have to create a system that can tell when the game should be play verse edited

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adrix89    135
Recommendations are pointless if you aren't going to check them so go dig a bit
Something I found on Unity:
http://forum.unity3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=44961
So in your case it should be fine

From my own research I found that cube 2 for a fps with 64 players uses about 19Mbit/s (bit not byte) for position updates at the rate of 30 frames per second
(Warning! The data can be wrong as it hasn't been tested in real world cases)
In MMO conditions you will not need that many frames or maybe go with a different scheme
RTS has no position updates other then commands while everything is simulated on server

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adrix89    135
Quote:
Original post by yamahaalex37
i wonder if its possible to merge them and use unity for MMO and cube2 for editing.

No there pretty much separate programs and I don't think Unity licence would permit it .. and why would you do that? it makes no sense

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donkey breath    230
Also Unity wouldn't give you source code so you can't integrate these programs easily. Unity's biggest flaw is lack of source code as it means you can't extend beyond what they give you out of the box, although that is a very powerful piece of software.

As has been said you are going to have to study each engine and test the specific parts you need for your game. It might be a good idea to write down your specification in a list and this go through it with each engine.

[Edited by - donkey breath on March 17, 2010 3:21:21 AM]

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