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Aleksi

What does it take to make a game?

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Aleksi    100
I want to make an MMO. As far as experience goes, I've only ever made simple games in GameMaker and worked with World of Warcraft private servers. I have a basic understanding of connecting client and server and handling a game database. I know C++ but only have worked with software and not a game. So what I want to know, what do you need to make a game? Like what makes up a game. I know you need a client, server, database and an engine but what makes a client? What does an engine do and how does it work? How do I make these things. If anyone knows a good article or could help me with these it would be greatly appreciated. Also, I do have a team together. I have 21 people so far.

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mrobbins    132
Read this link.
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=260813

As for making the game. Go to amazon and buy a few books on each topic for a game (Rendering, AI, Networking, Engine Architecture, Physics, Collision Detection etc etc) and go from there.

Going from GameMaker to a MMO is like doing First Aid then having a crack at being a Neurosurgeon.

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agm_ultimatex    191
lol, good analogy.

But seriously creating an MMO is tons of work, and the companies that run ones successfully have many teams, usually totaling over 100 employees. Thats with designers, programmers, 3d modelers, those working on the sound, etc. I recommend targeting for a multiplayer game that wouldn't fall under the MMO genre.

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wicked357    2424
You basically stated you can put a nail in the board, but your asking how to build a mansion. Honestly if you have to ask those questions your not quite ready to make an MMO, you might want to try and step your expectations down a little and try and make a game like Galaga, or Tetris, etc... If you have trouble making those, I don't think you are going to get very far on the MMO aspect of game making. Alternatively you can check out Realmcrafter: The Massively Multi-Player Online Role-Playing Game Creation Engine. And if you are going to try your hand at making lower games for now to get experience you can start small and try the SDL tutorials Lazyfoo Tutorials or you can go the route of SFML those are 2D based API's, you can alternatively check out Ogre3D Game Engine. I hope this information helps you out and gets you on the path of your initial goal.

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deltaKshatriya    2210
Yeah, so lots of people come here saying that they want to make an MMO, but it really isn't nearly as easy as you may think. A lot ends up going into MMO's, so you might want to put down your expecations to jumping from GameMaker to MMO..............try the basic stuff first, buy some books on game dev topics, and then go from there with your team............

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Aleksi    100
Maybe I should be a bit more specific, we don't know much about making an MMO. That doesn't mean to say we don't know about making games. The people who've agreed to work on this have experience in single player games, and some know a little about multiplayer, but not MMO's. I know how to connect two or more players in a game but not how to connect them to a server.

@wicked357 I've decided to go with Ogre, the goal for me was mainly to learn more about creating games from start to finish but using a pre-built engine is probably the best way to go and since this is open source I can figure out what's going on. Thanks.

@Promit Honestly I could do this project by myself but that article said if you can't don't get a team. I can easily go buy an engine, write the storyline and quests, use that engine to make a game without understanding most of what I did, set up a server and call it a day. But I want more then that, I want to learn what everything does. The overall goal is to make a game. But I (and the rest of my team) want to learn how games like this are made. And usually they're done with a team. Thank you for your post, and that was also an interesting read as well.

@agm_ultimatex I've done that before, never from scratch though, and while it could be a good idea I think this is still the way to go. I don't believe you need hundreds of people to make a game. It's not like we're trying to make the next World of Warcraft or Everquest or something. I understand it's a long difficult road ahead, but I'm not the kind of person that quits if somethings hard.

@mrobbins I completely agree, but you should probably learn first aid before going in to med school am I right? Everyone has to start somewhere, this post was asking where I could expand my current knowledge to achieve my goal of both creating an MMO and knowing the process of game creation.

@SimonForsman As previously stated we don't have much knowledge in MMO's but we can make a game. We've never built an engine from scratch though, and we've decided to use Ogre since it's open source and we can see what it does and all that good stuff. Also thank you for that link, the "Already a Programmer" section was exactly what I was looking for.

Thanks to everyone for their posts and links.

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Aleksi    100
Quote:
Original post by kryotech
Yeah, so lots of people come here saying that they want to make an MMO, but it really isn't nearly as easy as you may think. A lot ends up going into MMO's, so you might want to put down your expecations to jumping from GameMaker to MMO..............try the basic stuff first, buy some books on game dev topics, and then go from there with your team............


Believe me I know it'll be difficult, the main problem is I know programming but not how to apply it in this particular field. Thanks to all the recommendations from this site, I'll hopefully be able to create an MMO. I also understand how much projects get started an left, but I want to be able to go all the way through with this. As does most of the people on my team. The first deadline on the story was set last night for the 20th when we'll send it to the art team and they'll get started on drawing the different races in the game and some of the world. Once we get some good concept art I'll definitely post it here.

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Ne_cro    132
I don't want to lower your hopes, but if you have to ask those questions then IMO I dont think you are ready to start developing an MMO. If I were you I would really follow the suggestions in this thread. If I misinterpreted your post then I appologize.

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adrix89    135
Well if you are going your own way my first suggestion is learn everything you can about network as here the main problem lies in MMO development from a technical standpoint
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=mmorpg&hl=en&btnG=Search&as_sdt=2001
(Is your friend)
Also look into enet raknet tcp udp and other networks and protocols

Would also recommend to start with an game engine
http://www.panda3d.org/
http://unity3d.com/
http://www.udk.com/ (not to sure abot it)
http://www.crystalspace3d.org/main/Main_Page (a mmo by the name of Planeshift is "playable"(but crap,bad leader) and also used in Peragro)
Another thing is to brush on your gaming design skills as you have to balance economy combat classes allot more then in other games
The rest is just normal game developing

Also instead of you starting from scratch why not join an existing MMO project and learn from them after-all those projects need more contributors anyway

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=521341
http://peragro.org/
http://trinityreign.com/

Also this guy has some really solid concept for mmorpg but needs programmers
http://freezingmoon.org/
Also I DONT recommend using it but you can look at http://worldforge.org/ and see how there system are put together

[Edited by - adrix89 on March 14, 2010 3:02:49 PM]

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Daaark    3553
Just pick up a copy of RealmCrafter, and knock yourself out. You'll have a nice little MMO you and your friends can play in soon enough.

You might also want to try modding one of these existing MUD code bases out there. It's text based, but you can cheaply run a little server and let people connect and play. There is an audience for that.

A real professional big time, MMO? You aren't there yet. when you get the funds and experience, maybe on day you can license the hero engine. :)

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nullsquared    126
Make a small multiplayer game first using whatever technology you and your teammates are experienced with.

Then make a medium multiplayer game.

Then make your MMO.

Note that the first two steps usually take a while.

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demonkoryu    980
Quote:
Original post by Aleksi
I can easily go buy an engine, write the storyline and quests, use that engine to make a game without understanding most of what I did, set up a server and call it a day.


Sounds like a sensible approach. Will be a shitload of work, though.

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agm_ultimatex    191
Quote:
Original post by Aleksi
Maybe I should be a bit more specific, we don't know much about making an MMO. That doesn't mean to say we don't know about making games. The people who've agreed to work on this have experience in single player games, and some know a little about multiplayer, but not MMO's. I know how to connect two or more players in a game but not how to connect them to a server.

@wicked357 I've decided to go with Ogre, the goal for me was mainly to learn more about creating games from start to finish but using a pre-built engine is probably the best way to go and since this is open source I can figure out what's going on. Thanks.

@Promit Honestly I could do this project by myself but that article said if you can't don't get a team. I can easily go buy an engine, write the storyline and quests, use that engine to make a game without understanding most of what I did, set up a server and call it a day. But I want more then that, I want to learn what everything does. The overall goal is to make a game. But I (and the rest of my team) want to learn how games like this are made. And usually they're done with a team. Thank you for your post, and that was also an interesting read as well.

@agm_ultimatex I've done that before, never from scratch though, and while it could be a good idea I think this is still the way to go. I don't believe you need hundreds of people to make a game. It's not like we're trying to make the next World of Warcraft or Everquest or something. I understand it's a long difficult road ahead, but I'm not the kind of person that quits if somethings hard.

@mrobbins I completely agree, but you should probably learn first aid before going in to med school am I right? Everyone has to start somewhere, this post was asking where I could expand my current knowledge to achieve my goal of both creating an MMO and knowing the process of game creation.

@SimonForsman As previously stated we don't have much knowledge in MMO's but we can make a game. We've never built an engine from scratch though, and we've decided to use Ogre since it's open source and we can see what it does and all that good stuff. Also thank you for that link, the "Already a Programmer" section was exactly what I was looking for.

Thanks to everyone for their posts and links.



That's good, glad your expectations are set right. Also, there are a few examples of "WoW clones", and they don't do well. One needs to do something differently to beat competition, not copy them. Trying to make an MMO that's prehaps a bit simpler might be a way to go. Underdo the competition persay.

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deltaKshatriya    2210
Ok, so you say that you and your team has the experience. Ok, thanks for clarifying that part. Now the best way to go about learning how to apply your skills is to buy some books and read them. Then you try some projects with the team, such as some small multiplayer games, or a small scale MMO just to see if you can do it. Then, you start to make bigger projects from there.

Good luck!

:)

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Aleksi    100
@kryotech This is a small scale MMO. The plan is really only a level cap of 10, two dungeons, one small raid for the level cap. 4 races, 3 classes, 5 total zones. And that's the complete game. That does make it sound sort of simple but most of you know how much work that takes. Like I said I'm not going for a WoW clone or anything. Just a simple game, where players can connect, chat, walk around in 3D and kill things basically.

@agm_ultimatex Honestly although I still play WoW to this day there are so many aspects of it that I just don't like, especially in the expansions. It's really an original concept as far as game play goes and I definitely want this experience under my belt.

@nullsquared If you mean by make the game basically single player first then add on and edit it to be multiplayer then once that's done make it an RPG then I could see how that could be a good approach. If you mean make 3 games, that seams a little bit useless to me, all it would be is more experience doing what we've done before on our own.

@Daaark I don't think you get the objective of this, I don't want to just find some engine online that will let me make a game in a month so me and my friends can play it. I'm looking for something greater then a something made by game maker to show off and prove what I'm capable of.

@adrix89 We've decided to go with Ogre as it's opensource and I really want to know about it start to finish rather then join in and just learn about one part, like the programming. Plus, the people I've teamed up with are all people I personally know and can work with.

To everyone else, thank you for all your help, too much typing right now got to get back to reading, thanks again.

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Basse85    308
Dont take this in the wrong way, I'm not criticizing your goal.
How come MMO's is so popular among indie developers?
There are hundreds of MMO threads on this site but I havent seen a single complete game yet.
Isnt a more "doable" game more intresting?

Again, Im not out to criticize you or any one else, just curoius on this phenomena.

I wish you and your team the best of luck and work hard :)
Im looking forward to see the finished game in a couple of years

[Edited by - Basse85 on March 16, 2010 3:23:20 AM]

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Zahlman    1682
Quote:
Original post by Aleksi
@kryotech This is a small scale MMO.


Aargh.

There is no such thing. What do you think the first 'M' in MMO stands for?

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V-man    813
Quote:
Original post by Zahlman
Quote:
Original post by Aleksi
@kryotech This is a small scale MMO.


Aargh.

There is no such thing. What do you think the first 'M' in MMO stands for?


massive multiplayer online?

If you can make a small shooter like a Doom 3 type game with 4 people joining the game session, then you can certainly go up to 16 or whatever.

If you want to have some type of MMO where you need to store profiles on the server, then yeah, more work to do.

Good luck making version 1. After that, it is smooth sailing!

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ozak    155
Quote:
Original post by Zahlman
Quote:
Original post by Aleksi
@kryotech This is a small scale MMO.


Aargh.

There is no such thing. What do you think the first 'M' in MMO stands for?


I would like to counter that argument. Nobody has defined a standard for what MMO means. And using MMO will get people to understand what you want to do much easier than saying you want to do an MO. And since multiplayer usually also means online this day and age, MO is just kinda stupid.

Some of the biggest retail shooters ranges about 8-64 players. So going beyond that would probably be an MMO. Even though getting even 64 players to play your hobby MMO is quite a feat in itself ;)

Besides. A single server can host over 1000 players so in theory you could do an MMO capable game, even though not that many will play online at a time.
(And only when they do, can you think about expanding the game. Planning a bit ahead for scalability is not that hard so it should be releatively smooth sailing)

So I say. Let people call it an MMO. There is absolutely NOTHING productive about the comment that people should stop call it an MMO.

That being said, I think starting out smaller is the way to go. Why not do a simple server in Python or some other easy language and then hooking game maker up to that? I'm sure a 50-100 player game would be within reach with that setup.



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Quote:
Original post by Zahlman
Quote:
Original post by Aleksi
@kryotech This is a small scale MMO.


Aargh.

There is no such thing. What do you think the first 'M' in MMO stands for?


Compare, say, World of Warcraft, to something like Genecys, and I think you'll understand what he means. Certain MMOs can be small relative to others, and I think this is what he means. It is certainly possible to do a small scale MMO, it's just that that is large scale compared to most other games.

Cheers,
Patrick

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