They only hit the bucket when they went 3d imo. MK2, 3, ultimate, trilogy were all pretty awesome.

Quote:Original post by Daaark

Quote:Original post by Swordmaster
Would you mind giving me a simple rundown of how Bushido Blade worked? I've never played it.

Let's play Bushido Blade!

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Thanks for the links. BB seems simple enough. I heard about the reboot rumor as well and another one about how gameplay for MK9 will be 2d. But at least for sure I know character models are 3d. This is according to the series co-creator.

Quote:Original post by Alpha_ProgDes

Also, if I hit 'X' and 'O' together, then, regardless of what martial art style I'm using, both legs should be used to attack the enemy. Always.

I'm with you on this. Although, one of the problems that I see with using a system like this, is knowing which type of player to please. I mean of course, someone who plays on an arcade stick vs a gamepad. So, if you designate the right and left legs to two separate face buttons (such as the X and O) on a PS3 gamepad for example, you run into the problem of having to adjust your hands to accommodate face button inputs, for attacks that utilize both legs. This isn't really an issue with an arcade stick because of how its set up. I also see the same problem with diagonal inputs on the direction buttons of a 360 or PS3 gamepad. Of course, everyone is going to have an opinion on the feel though.

I've wondered if there is a way round this?

Quote:Original post by Swordmaster
So, if you designate the right and left legs to two separate face buttons (such as the X and O) on a PS3 gamepad for example, you run into the problem of having to adjust your hands to accommodate face button inputs, for attacks that utilize both legs. This isn't really an issue with an arcade stick because of how its set up. I also see the same problem with diagonal inputs on the direction buttons of a 360 or PS3 gamepad. Of course, everyone is going to have an opinion on the feel though.

I've wondered if there is a way round this?

It was because of this that I used to play games like Tekken with my hand in an unnatural position ("arched over" the controller, using the index and middle fingers to press the face buttons). My hand would cramp up after a while.

These days most games allow mapping of individual buttons or combinations of face buttons to the shoulder buttons/bumpers/triggers. These buttons are rarely used in fighting games for anything else and allow me to play games like SF4 and the newer Tekkens quite comfortably.

Quote:Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
If I were to make a fighting game it would be control that were easy to handle and you didn't have to reserve one-third of your brain to memorize the countless array of button combinations for one character.

For instance Bushido Blade had a nice fighting mechanic. Simple, intuitive, and very easy to understand. Street Fighter (2, 3, 4) had simpler, IMO, button combos for moves and special moves than say Tekken, Virtua Fighter, or even Soul Calibur. The parry move from SF3 was easy. The counter move from DOA was easy. ;

Virtua Fighter is easier to learn than Street Fighter 4. You can play mindfully - and win - with a handful of moves that have very easy inputs. From there you can integrate more stuff to your play when you are ready. There's no smooth ramp-up in SF4, you have to be able to do a lot of special moves reliably for the game to make sense at all. Going to a higher level of play you have to master insane combo inputs in SF. VF does reward dexterity, but mainly by letting you move smoother and faster, and defend more attacks. VF's few truly hard offensive inputs do not break your game if you can't do them. You pretty much always have an easy option that does slightly less damage.

Also, three buttons in VF vs six buttons in SF. Six buttons is way harder physically, IMO, since you no longer have a direct finger per button mapping. For this reason I would never put more than four buttons in a fighter.

Quote:Original post by Stroppy Katamari
There's no smooth ramp-up in SF4, you have to be able to do a lot of special moves reliably for the game to make sense at all.

Well, the average character in SF4 only has three special moves, which are usually just slight variations on the same input (either a quarter-circle or holding a directional button). These used to be a nightmare to pull off reliably in earlier versions, but the next-gen incarnation is very lenient with player input.

In addition to these fairly standard special moves across characters you have heavy, medium and light punches and kicks - with few exceptions combos are made up of this pretty small set of moves and a good player can trash a poor player by using only basic attacks and timing. I find this relatively small move set to be a pretty minor hurdle to overcome in order to become effective with most of the characters in the game. Of course there are then cancels, more complex characters and all sorts of stuff for hardcore players to try to master but this is true of most fighting games and I think essential for their longevity.

Quote:Original post by WavyVirus

Quote:Original post by Stroppy Katamari
There's no smooth ramp-up in SF4, you have to be able to do a lot of special moves reliably for the game to make sense at all.

Well, the average character in SF4 only has three special moves, which are usually just slight variations on the same input (either a quarter-circle or holding a directional button). These used to be a nightmare to pull off reliably in earlier versions, but the next-gen incarnation is very lenient with player input.

Quarter-circles, shoryuken inputs, not to mention the super/ultra inputs are all hard for a beginner. Despite their apparent simplicity, charge moves are also hard since they incorporate hidden state and demand sophisticated joystick control and a decent predictive ability to actually use in a match. Having to make those inputs on demand is a massive barrier of entry. A low-level player who can do hadoukens and shoryukens semi-reliably has a ridiculous edge against a low-level player who cannot.

According to someone who probably knows what he's talking about, SF4 is prone to "create that impenetrable wall of execution between you and the actual game (the interaction between you and your opponent)".
http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2009/2/22/a-few-things-about-street-fighter-4.html

Regardless of high execution skill ceiling, there is no SF4-like hard execution wall for newcomers in VF. Knowing just punch, low punch, mid and throw - with inputs like P, d+P, df+K and P+G - you can have satisfying matches which incorporate the key elements and feel of the game. A lot of the character-specific heavy hitting moves are just two or three buttons, like f,f+K or K+G, and are not dependent on punching in a combo to do most of their damage. You can pretty much progress at your own pace. You are not at a huge disadvantage just because your opponent can do qcf+qcf+PPP whereas you can't.

Quote:Original post by Stroppy Katamari
Quarter-circles, shoryuken inputs, not to mention the super/ultra inputs are all hard for a beginner. Despite their apparent simplicity, charge moves are also hard since they incorporate hidden state and demand sophisticated joystick control and a decent predictive ability to actually use in a match. Having to make those inputs on demand is a massive barrier of entry. A low-level player who can do hadoukens and shoryukens semi-reliably has a ridiculous edge against a low-level player who cannot.

OK, I think we'll have to agree to disagree here or risk derailing the thread. I see what you're getting at in principle (the interface should not be a barrier to gameplay) and agree entirely, I just don't think that these inputs are difficult to perform (including qcf+qcf+PPP). The game is so lenient that it basically accepts 1/8 circles as 1/4 circles, which effectively becomes a small flicking motion. A double qc can be performed without ever releasing the stick to the neutral position (a bit like a DJ scratching a record forward and back 1/8 of a revolution). Having to use timing and prediction for charge moves I also don't see as a problem - this is required to be at all effective in any fighting game.

Quote:
According to someone who probably knows what he's talking about, SF4 is prone to "create that impenetrable wall of execution between you and the actual game (the interaction between you and your opponent)".
http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2009/2/22/a-few-things-about-street-fighter-4.html

As an expert player I don't really think he's in the best position to judge the barrier to entry. I do agree with a lot of what is said about higher level stuff (cancels, combos etc). I'm mainly basing this on the fact that I was able to teach my housemate (who had never been a SF player) to pull off the basic moves semi-reliably in 5-10 minutes. It's true that if you learn by yourself and try to do proper qcs etc it will probably take you longer and some moves (e.g. Vega/El Fuerte's special) are unnecessarily hard to pull off. I'm no master player but can reliably execute pretty much any move - he was able to be competitive (especially when using characters with charge moves) almost immediately.