Hey all. I've currently run into a brick wall for a project of mine. I'll start by giving you our token "about" description, and we can go from there. In Troubleshoot, players control a single character in a group of four other human players. It is handled in a basic third-person shooter format. They are tasked with working together to take down a giant monster/boss. Levels are generally oval and constrained in nature and do not "progress," in that the whole level is available right off the bat. Its not like a typical campaign level where you fight, run to next area, fight. The whole area is the fight as the boss moves around the level (think of it as an arena.) Behind this fighting system, is a customization system. Essentially each character has a "memory chip." These memory chips have a restrained number of "bits" to fill up with upgrades. These upgrades could be something like Faster Reloading, faster sprint, jump higher, more ammo per clip, etc. These upgrades are added to your "chip" and then affect you in the game. All customization is done before the game, so you choose your upgrades before ever joining a game. These upgrades are permanent between game to game, or at least until you remove it from your chip. (Its not like Counterstrike where you purchase each round.) The space on your chip does not fluctuate. Imagine it like a Call of Duty class, you make your class, then can choose it once the game starts. We are currently running into an issue on how to handle weapons and ammo. We'd like players to be allowed to customize their weapons, such as adding sights, stronger bullets, etc. similar to the chip system. However, we also would like to add weapon pickups on the level to encourage the player to move around. We have a few current ideas that I'll list below, though I'm open to something creative. Multiple Chips Our first idea was to have two separate chips. The upgrade chip and then a weapon/weapon upgrade chip. The upgrade chip is used for things like increased armor, running faster, faster reload, jump higher. The weapon chip is used for selecting your starting weapons and then upgrading them. For example, the player buys a sniper rifle and a pistol and it takes up 5 bits on their 10 bit weapon chip. They player decides to put a red dot sight on his pistol, and increases the fire rate and bullet damage on his sniper rifle taking up the other 5 bits. This allows us to still use weapon pickups, as the player can pickup new weapons, they just won't be upgraded. Questions: Should the player be able upgrade weapons they don't own? I.E I don't start with a rocket launcher, but I purchased increased fire rate with it, so whenever I pick it up on the level it has increased fire rate. One thing we were thinking is to allow players to pick the starting weapons the want (by putting them on the chip), and then anytime the player walks over the same weapon on the map, they get a super powered version. I.E player starts with the sniper rifle and finds it on the map as well, he now has a super powerful sniper rifle. Basic Starting Weapon Another option we were debating was to have a selection of a couple basic starting weapons. Gears of War does the lancer and hammerburst, so you have a small choice of which to start out with. This weapon could have unlimited ammo, so it is always your backup plan if you don't pick up a weapon off the map. Your weapon/weapon upgrade chip is now reserved for other weapon upgrades. So you can upgrade your basic starting weapon, or you can just purchase upgrades for weapons you'd pick up on a map. Buy the red dot sight for the chain gun? Pick the chain gun up from the map and it would have a red dot sight. One thing that concerns me about something like this is that some players may argue over who picks what weapon up. Someone may pick up a rocket launcher, and another player say something like "I called Dibs on rocket launchers, I have upgrades for mine." While this isn't a huge issue, its just going to get annoying I feel like. Universal Upgrades Each weapon is customizable to a certain sense. So there's a menu where you choose your preferred basics of each weapon you pick up, i.e all your rifles have red dot sights and digital camo. Your weapon/weapon upgrade chip is then reserved for universal upgrades, like increased fire rate. Any weapon you pick up is going to have increased fire rate. This solves the problem of someone having more upgrades for a certain weapon than someone, but still may run into an issue of some upgrades are better for certain weapons than other. This does also run into the problem that it limits our freedom as designers as we can't do weapon specific upgrades, like a 12x zoom on a sniper instead of 8x. I just see a ton of advantages and disadvantages to each, so I'm hoping I come here and someone says something mindblowing and it solves everything. I'll appreciate any feedback you can give me regarding any solution, so just let me know. Thanks in advance for all your help!

I think, whilst having the chips, more drastic changes need to be made available to the player.

I was thinking these bosses are on the level of Godzilla or Cloverfield, so maybe these Chips also control latent nanobots that can augment your abilities.
Giving you super strength or lightning fingers.
Abilities on par with Bioshock's Plasmids.

It'd defenitely let you run free with your level design, making the game way more interesting.

Here's how I would handle it. Feel free to Frankenstein these ideas however you want, I won't mind. ^^

Separate player customization into two categories: Equipment and Upgrades. Allow the player to allocate points into upgrades however they wish, and have the remaining slots open for equipment. This is to emphasize choice between specialization (more into upgrades), adaptability (more into Equipment), or a balance between the two.

Have Equipment divided between limited use equipment (LUE) and weapons. LUEs would be objects like grenades, traps, or mines, one-use only, non-upgradeable. Weapons wouldn't run out of ammo permanently (they could perhaps overheat, or run out of energy and need to recharge, or regenerate ammo at a fixed rate). They should cost 'bits' (inventory size?) based on their usefulness (a huge but inaccurate minigun should take up fewer bits than a small, MIB-style cricket nuclear pistol). Picking up weapons during combat should be as easy as walking over them, and discarding weapons should be a one or two button action at most.

All weapons can be upgraded, and they use the same upgrades (+damage, +range, +accuracy, +AoE, +firerate, +ammo clip size). Your character can also use upgrades (speed, hit points, health regen, AoE healing, armour), which can be passive, chosen before action, or temporary, walked over during combat.

Hopefully this helps. Game sounds cool, good luck!

I appreciate both of you guys feedback so far. Taking it into consideration for sure.

One thing I do want to mention for future posters, is that we want to keep this game at its core a shooter, not an RPG. Abilities should not be flinging fireballs around, and bosses should not require a certain ability to defeat (i.e a boss has flame vulnerability.) The way I view plasmids is a little RPGish, so we'd like to keep most abilities to something like "Turn invulnerable for 2 seconds" or "Extra damage for 3 seconds," not "shoot lightning at the boss."

I should've made that clarification before hand so I apologize, but you are correct in assuming something like Godzilla or Cloverfield.

I just imagined the game took place inside a malfunctioning computer or something.

I figured being a superconductor of static electricity inside a computer would make good use of the unique environment at hand.

I mean if you're going to go the Serious Sam route with this just make the weapons seriously awesome and lay out puzzle traps to give you an opportunity to damage the boss more.
I think weapon upgrades and stuff are more like advancement systems than anything really useful.

I'm really not going to care if I can shoot my Rocket Launcher 2% faster when I'm fighting King Bubsgonzola anyway.
Oh and by the way incremental stat increases are more RPG like than flinging fireballs.
If it came down to core shooter elements, I'd want a quake-esque spread with pickups around the level.
As for player customisation, even just appearance is enough for most people. I'm not into the whole upgrade thing these days. It's too played out.

Alright, so there's the Multiple Chips, Basic Starting Weapon, and Universal Upgrades variants of the mechanic.

Universal Upgrades seems like it would be most likely to divorce the customization process from the actual selection of weapons in the field. It is the safest, if dullest, option. I would probably avoid this one.

The Multiple Chips mechanic -- specifically, using points for starting weapons -- would discourage using the pickup mechanic, and you would want to avoid that contradiction. Allowing upgrades for things you don't start with is a good way to get around that issue, although players might just start with low-point weapons so they can use them for upgrading the superior pickups. Personally, I like the idea of just picking starting weapons, and then the pickups become a better version. I don't think it would be as compelling for players to customize weapons they don't start with, but even if it was, it still doesn't have an advantage over the starter-with-pickup-upgrade idea. Another note, you could make the upgrades pickups, too, just for something to think about.

The Basic Starting Weapon idea is kind of like a hybrid of the other two ideas, but I think it inherits both of their weaknesses. If players customize their starting weapons, they will be less interested in your pickup mechanic, but they also might not feel like getting upgrades for a weapon they may not even acquire. Even assuming they would, the Multiple Chips idea is still superior.



Now aside from that, I should mention that it is a lot more interesting to give players new abilities, rather than enhancing ones that already exist. And I also have to mention, because it just bugs me and I have to mention it, chain guns don't have sights because they're used on vehicles and have lots of muzzle flash, and instead use tracers to aim anyways. I'm just saying, you know, you should probably aim more Quake 3 than Modern Warfare with that, but then RDS says there's ADS, so I dunno.

repaste from the other ammo thread:


You can also look at ammo "working" differently.

First type "traditional" you have a limited amount then need to collect more

Second type "collector" As you use it the ammo takes longer to fire. Something like a quarter a second getting all the way up to 1 minute between shots with use.

Third type "depletion" As you use the ammo it has a chance to not work anymore. Start at around a 150% chance to work going down to a 0 percent chance to work. If it fails the weapon just won't fire that round(essentially the player has to choose between conserving ammo at a risk, or using new ammo at a cost).

forth type "grid" as you get further from an "energy grid" the time between shots get weaker and/or take longer to fire

Fifth type "greed" ammo isn't "used" but the more ammo you have the faster the gun fires and/or does more damage. At the cost of some penalty like reduced maximum health, speed, inventory space, or similar.

Pickups can serve two purposes here: making your character better at what they do, or giving them versatility. In the former case they're a reward to keep the player moving around the map, in the latter they're a more strategic acquisition when the terms of the battle change.

Customization + team play seems to call for specialization. One player might lug the big guns around while another flits about keeping the enemy distracted. In that case the versatility aspect seems less critical: you don't want the bait finding a rocket launcher, or a sniper finding a flame thrower. The players should be rewarded for creating a cohesive combination and fixed rewards don't seem to further that end.

So what about this: Instead of finding guns/ammo you find some sort of energy pellet that feeds your chip? The player then is able to define what sort of rewards make sense for their build. There would be a 'firing speed bit' that gives a fraction of a % speedup each time a pellet is obtained. As the battle progresses, the players would increase their skill. Some bits would spend pellets as better ammo, others would be a constant bonus. This would be another opportunity for specialization: some builds might start weak and get very strong with a high number of pellets. Builds with more immediate benefits would hold off the enemy while that player beefs themselves up enough to finish it off.

Multiple color pellets could also go towards making chip building more strategic. Perhaps there are Red, Green, and Blue pellets and then a corresponding node for each color on the chip. The bits applied around a node would get the most benefit from that pellet type. Thus you could focus on either picking up red or blue pellets depending on how the battle is going. Or you could put the bits that use pellets as ammo around one, and the constant bonuses around another. If you put the pellets in different areas (maybe the enemy drops one type when its damaged) then choosing what color to focus on becomes another strategic choice.

Thanks to all of you for the feedback.

Just for clarification, we are definitely tilting toward unrealistic Quake 3, Unreal type over Modern Warfare like you said. When I said a sight, I didn't mean put it on a chain gun, each weapon would have its own type upgrades, I was a little general on describing that, sorry.

I really like the "pellet" idea. One thing to mention is we want to keep the majority of this game, skill-based, not class-based. I refer to it as a shooter with RPG elements rather than an RPG with shooter elements. The thing I kind of wanted to avoid was grouping things in a certain class, so when you say sniper grabbing a rocket launcher, I want that to still be semi-effective, and to not have everyone in the game get angry. Of course, thats the main dilemma is that there are upgrades, yet I don't want people to specialize, its definitely a contradiction.

The one issue I do find with the "pellet" system is that some players may try to just run around and collect pellets at the start of the game, and as a fellow player, that would probably irritate me. My first thought was to base it off damage on the boss, but then again, if some upgrades start poorly until you get a large number of pellets, then it'd take them longer to fill up anyway.

I definitely think something like pellets are on the right track, though it doesn't completely solve the weapon problem. Aethonic's point of view agreed with the "make a super weapon upon pickup of starting weapon," though does this mean they can pickup weapons they didn't start with?

I still haven't found a solution I just unquestionably like unfortunately, not sure if that's ever going to come :(