Quote:Original post by owl

Quote:Original post by Hnefi

Quote:I have also shown that they were transporting a lot more than cement.

No, you haven't. You've shown videos with smoke and violence. Nowhere have you shown that any weapons used, besides blunt objects, were not brought and used by the Israeli commandos.

I'm afraid he did. I even quoted a video he posted in wich you can clearly see they were in fact transporting weapons, lots of weapons.

All right, so I was wrong about that; so they had knives, blunt objects and fireworks. Bottles of lighting fluid as well, but then, every gasoline-powered vehicle carries those implicitly. But none of those objects are contraband.

Quote:Original post by way2lazy2care

Quote:Original post by Hnefi
Yes you did, when you labelled part of the cargo as "contraband" - because the part of the cargo labelled "contraband" by Israel is indeed cement.

I used contraband as it is defined in the Helsinki Princibles of the law in neutrality.

Nowhere in the Helsinki principles does it say anything about cement. Cement is considered contraband according to you only because Israel has decided to call it that. By the same line of argument as you're presenting, the ridiculous scenario with the Swedish navy vs German cement vessel I posted earlier becomes valid. That's the sort of logic you're using.

Quote:they certainly did! see my posts that quote the Helsinki principles and the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea.

All your arguments about the Helsinki principles show is that you haven't understood those principles properly. As I demonstrated, Israel is not a belligerent nation by the definition given by those principles, so those articles do not apply. Other articles only mention waters of neutral nations; on international waters, non-belligerent nations are not allowed, according to the Helsinki principles, to board neutral vessels. All legal experts that I've seen speaking on the matter agree with this.

Quote:They had every right to at least search the ships, which had every intention of going through the blockade.

Not as long as it was on international waters.

Quote:"118. In exercising their legal rights in an international armed conflict at sea, belligerent warships and military aircraft have a right to visit and search merchant vessels outside neutral waters where there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that they are subject to capture."

But Israel is not formally at war with any other nation, so they are not a belligerent state, which means that article does not apply.

Quote:grants them the right to search in international waters as the vessel had made their intentions clear.

Learn to read. But by now, I realize you're just trolling, so I'll probably stop responding to you - at least until you've actually produced something of substance.

Quote:Original post by phantom
however the fact remains the ship was in international waters.

That fact indeed remains. The other outcome of this is that pro-palestine civilians are going to think it twice the next time they try to trepass a military blockade.

I just want to clarify that I'm anti-Hamas. As long as Hamas controls palestine, I'm afraid I'm going to have to be pro-Israel.

Quote:Original post by rip-off
You've shown nothing. A handful of small scale arms? Knives and sticks, I'm sure they don't have them in the Gaza strip. There are bound to be quite a few knives on a boat that big anyway. They included screwdrivers. Smoke torches, not really an offensive weapon.

I don't know Turkish law, but under EU maritime law (and most other jurisdictions, I imagine), knives, smoke pots/torches and other pyrotechnical devices are legally required equipment on a seafaring vessel. Over here you can actually get in trouble with the coast guard if you don't have them on board...

Quote:Original post by owl
I think that the point is that they were supposed to be a peaceful ship. Trying to trespass a maritime blockade transporting a mountain of slingshots is at the very least, stupid.

Certainly. It also casts doubts on their claims. Then again, there is already an article on the BBC with eyewitnesses saying that they only had improvised weapons. There will be claims that the weapons found were plants, probably. As phantom says, its basically biased word against biased word.

Quote:Original post by rip-off
The other videos are equally unconvincing. Yes, the Israeli soldiers were attacked. But they had no right to board the ship, so it doesn't matter. In any case, the Israeli soldiers clearly escalated the level of violence by using guns.

That's what usually happen when a bunch of civilians fuck with the military in a war-zone. Yes, you mind, the entire middle-east is a war-zone.
While true, it is exactly what the protesters wanted. They wanted escalation, maybe they got more than they wanted with the deaths. But the international outcry is what they were looking for.

Quote:Original post by owlI just want to clarify that I'm anti-Hamas. As long as Hamas controls palestine, I'm afraid I'm going to have to be pro-Israel.

You know, it's perfectly possible to be both anti Hamas and anti the Israel government at the same time. Heck, if it weren't for all the civilian casualties, I wouldn't mind them going at each other for all they're worth.

Quote:Original post by Yann L

Quote:Original post by rip-off
You've shown nothing. A handful of small scale arms? Knives and sticks, I'm sure they don't have them in the Gaza strip. There are bound to be quite a few knives on a boat that big anyway. They included screwdrivers. Smoke torches, not really an offensive weapon.

I don't know Turkish law, but under EU maritime law (and most other jurisdictions, I imagine), knives, smoke pots/torches and other pyrotechnical devices are legally required equipment on a seafaring vessel. Over here you can actually get in trouble with the coast guard if you don't have them on board...

I suspected as much.

It will be interesting to see what, if anything, the Israeli authorities decide to do differently when the Irish ship arrives sometime tomorrow. I wonder if the protestors will have the sense to ditch any purely offensive weapons, which would put them in a much stronger position. On the other hand, Israel might bide its time until the ship hits their waters, and will hopefully be more reasonable and proportionate in its handling.

It must be noted that several Irish passports were involved in the alleged Mossad assasination, and while Ireland is far from an important country on the world stage, it is a member of the EU.