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Kylotan

Final Fantasy 6 - Why?

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Any old timers on this board may know that I consider Ultima VII to be the greatest RPG of all time. I''ve always considered the Final Fantasy series, and all the other Squarealike games be be pretty inferior by comparison. I''ve watched the FF games be played, but not really played them myself. But recently, I started playing Final Fantasy 6 (aka 3 in the US, I think), which is commonly regarded as the best of the lot by many. I admit I haven''t got very far yet, but I will report back if I change my views. But I must admit that playing this game has only reinforced my opinion. The Final Fantasy games are somewhat overrated. Here''s a few of my thoughts: Random encounters : now I know people on here have complained about random encounters, and I have tended to go along with them. But little did I know it could get This bad. It seems like this game throws random encounters at me every 10 seconds or so. These get old after about the 3rd in any given dungeon/terrain type as they are almost inevitably against exactly the same type of foes. In the early stages of the game at least, I have very few options in combat and they all work out about the same anyway. These encounters take me out of whatever I am doing (exploring or travelling somewhere) and place me in a different context, where the outcome is pretty much assured anyway. What''s the point? Combat system : Sorry guys, since I know 90% of you RPG people are developing combat systems like this, but it sucks. Ok, I''ll be more objective. The scope for tactics is minimal: each character has few options available, making defeat or failure almost entirely based on equipment. The scope for manouevring is next to non-existent. (Contrast with Ultima, Baldur''s Gate, or Diablo, where you can get behind obstacles or doorways to better defend yourself, at a bare minimum.) About the only good thing about the system is the nice way they mixed turn-based and real-time combat... shame they didn''t manage to preserve many of the benefits of either. Music : on the whole, the music is quite good. The main theme in particular is very good. But it gets repetitive. It seems to repeat forever when you''re in a certain place and this truly starts to grate. Worst of all is the combat music. This is obviously a side-effect of the random encounter problem, but when you''ve heard that same combat tune and victory tune 40 times in 10 minutes, it starts to piss you off! Interface : their menu system is pretty unintuitive. (For those of you who disagree instantly, try looking at it from the point of view of someone who hasn''t played all the previous games.) Rather than picking a character and then the action you want to perform on it, you pick an action and then specify the character you want to perform it upon. This is pretty convention-defying and, as far as I can see, doesn''t gain you anything. Perhaps it''s conventional for SNES games, though. Sometimes it gives you options that are pointless: like magic screens for people who don''t have magic. (Maybe they get magic later: but why bother having the screen accessible in the meantime? Removing the menu option and then adding it later would provide a good cue to the player that a new option is available, whereas having to keep check a submenu to see if anything new is on it is a hassle.) Conversation Repeatedly clicking to get through conversation seems pretty boring and almost pointless. At least in Ultima VII you get to choose the order in which you ask things, and ignore stuff you''re not interested in. In Baldur''s Gate you get to influence the plot with your choice of response. I''ve barely seen any interaction in the conversation in FF6. Plot line : Disclaimer: I know I am nowhere near as far into the game as I need to be to deliver a good verdict on the plot. So I''m open to being proven wrong here. But from what I can tell, it seems pretty shallow. Go to The RPG Clichés Game page and read through that list. Much of that list relates to Final Fantasy 6 and others in the series, and casts a very unflattering light on the storyline. Given that these guys know the series far better than I do, yet find it clichéd, I can only assume from what they say and what I''ve seen so far that the Ultima 7 storyline is far better. And no: most of the clichés on that page do not apply to Ultima. Some do, but a far fewer number. Now, there are some good aspects to the game (including sub-aspects of the above mentioned aspects) but I''m not interested in mentioning them here. They are outweighed by the irritations and this makes me say the FF series are merely good games, certainly not great ones. Given my oppositions raised above, why do so many (of you) like these games? How on earth did they reach cult status? Is it just the animé thing? Do you all just have bad taste? What am I missing?

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Guest Anonymous Poster
I have to respond because Final Fantasy 6 is my favorite in the series.

Random Encounters- I like them. Let''s say I am right before a boss and I need to level up. In a non-random game, I have all the enemies on the screen beat and would have to leave the screen and come back to get some more enemies. That would waste time.

Combat System- You say everyone has limited options. It is more realistic that way. FF6 uses a vague class system and they have to keep in that class. For example, Locke is a thief. The only special thief a thief can really do is Steal so that''s what he does.

Music- The music''s pretty good. Not the best.

Interface- Does it really matter if you choose the character or the action first? Either way it''s two clicks. I have almost always used action first so that''s what I am used too. The magic screens weren''t that bad but the Blitz and SwdTech screen for every character was dumb.

Conversation- Where are you in the game? The conversation is pretty dull in the beginning but has some pretty good parts later on.

Plot Line- The plot will get better as the game goes on. I read some of The RPG clichés game article. Some things I disagree with but for the most part I like the way things are. One example is the Full Night''s Rest thing. Would you prefer waiting 8 hours while they slept? And when the game starts with an easy battle is better than sitting around talking to townsfolk.

Okay I''m done. It took me a long while to type this. Keep playing FF6. You might change your mind later.

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First let me say I think Ultima IV is the most innovative one in the whole series. Ultima VII, to me, is just better 3d graphic and a different social system that''s all.

Random encouters: Agree, that why a Square came out with the Chrono Trigger and Secret of Mana series that dosen''t have random combat.

Combat systems: I think you are over rating this. After all, RPG isn''t all about combat, it''s about role playing and character developement. And some people just want to enjoy a good rpg without having to deal with the hassles of tactic/strategy.

Musics: No comment, but I can still remember the lyric of those combat and overhead map toons from 8 years ago.

Interface: FFVI dosen''t have the best interface, but neither does Ultima VII. I don''t even want to recount how annoying it was to look in a sack trying to find a key under stacks of potions and scrolls.

Conversation: But conversation are used to advanced the plot and develope characteristics... Is it really that repeatitive ?

Plot line: FFVI has a pretty straight forward plot, with a twist in the middle of the game. I would say it''s fair, but definately not on the level of awesome.

quote:
Given my oppositions raised above, why do so many (of you) like these games? How on earth did they reach cult status? Is it just the animé thing? Do you all just have bad taste?


Number one, any sequel of a smash hit is already guarentee to have more fame than an above the average product no matter how lame the sequel is. You can find examples of this in games, movies, books, and almost anywhere. Second, I don''t you should compare FF and Ultima for the sake of trying to find the best RPG. FF is aimed toward a younger audience by skipping alot of the complex combat and plot choices, then put the majority of the game design into the rich character stories and development which the gamers can relate to in personal experience. On the other hand, Ultima is obviously aimed toward older gamers where as a little kid would most likely give up after 10 minutes of trying to figure out how to get in the castle. (Took me 15 minutes go get in the first time)

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I''d just like to comment on the plot thing...

Yeah, the final fantasy series is becoming pretty cliche. It''s not that hard to predict aproximatly what is going to happen.

However, Final fantasy 6 wasn''t that cliche when it came out. It STARTED alot of cliches though.

Just my quick cent and a half.



Drakonite

[Insert Witty Signature Here]

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I would agree that Final Fantasy 6 is the best of the series I''ve played. That happy medium between making improvements and making another tired old sequel. As for cliches... there''s less and less excuse for them today. How many of them can be explained away by memory and other harware limits? To answer any of those items in that list that refer to lack of realism or an absurd, over used plot device, I got one word, "Soliloque".

FF6 is probably still guilty of more of those cliches than Ultima 7. U7 was good, but I enjoyed FF6 more. Each game has their flaws in the areas you give. Ability to freely roam the world always leaves me unsure of where to go. The only RTS party combat I''ve liked so far was in Fallout Tactics, 7 years after FF6 or U7.

I''m also told I''m insane for not liking mushrooms. It''s just a question of taste.

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Some nice responses: thanks guys.

However, Anonymous Poster : I''m gonna pick your reply apart though. Hope you don''t mind
quote:
Random Encounters- I like them. Let''s say I am right before a boss and I need to level up. In a non-random game, I have all the enemies on the screen beat and would have to leave the screen and come back to get some more enemies. That would waste time.
This sounds to me like a poor solution to a problem. Maybe the game shouldn''t rely on you levelling up to beat the bosses. Maybe you should get more exp per encounter and fewer encounters. Maybe the bosses should be scaled to match your level. I think there are better ways to deal with this.

quote:
Combat System- You say everyone has limited options. It is more realistic that way.

Making a game less involving and varied in the name of realism is blasphemy to me. Besides, if they wanted realism, they shouldn''t have Bio Blast and all those other ludicrous attacks. Castles that disappear into the sand? People that say "..."! I don''t mind lack of realism, but I do mind lack of gameplay.

quote:
Interface- Does it really matter if you choose the character or the action first? Either way it''s two clicks.

It''s not the number of clicks that''s the issue for me, it''s more the logical organisation.
quote:
I have almost always used action first so that''s what I am used too.

Most office applications follow the paradigm of ''select what you want to work on, then tell the computer what you want to do to it''. This is the standard system for ''operating on a subset of data''. You don''t go to the Edit Menu, select Copy, then go and find the text you want to copy. You do it the other way around. Generally this is because you want to browse the data before you decide how to operate upon it. By this standard, I would like to be able to browse my characters in an RPG before deciding whether I want to equip them, check their spells, or whatever. To reverse the paradigm is counter-intuitive in most situations and just plain awkward in others. (NB: Exceptions to the ''standard'' are things like graphics programs, where you select the tool before selecting the area. However, this is generally because the emphasis is upon creating new data, which requires you to select a tool first. You also tend to work with a single entity (canvas) rather than several distinct ones (characters).)

quote:
And when the game starts with an easy battle is better than sitting around talking to townsfolk.

Is it? I got bored selecting Bio Blast or whatever it is about 10 times just to get to The First Plot Device (tm).

quote:
Okay I''m done. It took me a long while to type this. Keep playing FF6. You might change your mind later.

I intend playing it to the end... give me a week or so

Ok, Mooglez next

quote:
Combat systems: I think you are over rating this. After all, RPG isn''t all about combat, it''s about role playing and character developement. And some people just want to enjoy a good rpg without having to deal with the hassles of tactic/strategy.

Very fair point, however: if the game isn''t about combat, don''t throw things at me to fight every 10 seconds Or, to put that another way: don''t pull me out of the main game into activities that aren''t very relevant or indeed enjoyable.

quote:
Conversation: But conversation are used to advanced the plot and develope characteristics... Is it really that repeatitive ?

By comparison with some other RPGs, yes. It reminds me of the LucasArts point and click adventures in some ways. They bored me too, since I never felt like I was interacting much. I don''t mind conversation: I do mind conversation where it appears to be read from a very rigid script.

quote:
Interface: FFVI dosen''t have the best interface, but neither does Ultima VII. I don''t even want to recount how annoying it was to look in a sack trying to find a key under stacks of potions and scrolls.

True enough. I am in love with the Diablo inventory system, personally. Who cares that it''s not ''realistic''? It simulates capacity and shape restrictions and provides instant visual feedback on the stuff you are carrying. However, I don''t think it could be easily generalised to a party of 8 people, which is what Ultima had to deal with. (See new thread on Interface considerations.)

quote:
FF is aimed toward a younger audience by skipping alot of the complex combat and plot choices, then put the majority of the game design into the rich character stories and development which the gamers can relate to in personal experience. On the other hand, Ultima is obviously aimed toward older gamers where as a little kid would most likely give up after 10 minutes of trying to figure out how to get in the castle. (Took me 15 minutes go get in the first time)

Interesting point, and probably a very accurate one. I hesitate to call all FF fans ''less mature'', but the game does seem to be aimed at younger people, as you said. As for character, The Ultima games do have some interesting characterization, although perhaps there isn''t so much of the interpersonal tension or whatever. Out of the 3 integral story elements (characterization, plot, and situation), Ultima wins on Plot and Situation. FF might be better on Characterization. (Although Dupre''s sacrifice in U7: Serpent Isle was very moving )

kseh : I respect your choice of preferring FF6 over U7. But are you able to put that into objective terms? (I understand if you can''t: RPGs are often more about ''feel'' than anything else, but I just wondered, for the sake of discussion.)

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I've never played Ultima VII more than a few minutes because the Ultima games never impressed me. Then again, it's been about eight years since I've been impressed with a Final Fantasy. Let's get one thing straight before we move on: for whatever RPG elements Final Fantasy possesses, it's nothing more than a glorified combat simulator.

Everything you do in Final Fantasy eventually leads to more combat. You can tell the game is combat-oriented because every single one of them starts off with a fight. All the abilities your characters learn are geared toward killing things. There are no puzzle solving spells. Items serve no purpose other than to open the story so you can kill more stuff. The only spell that came close to a utility spell was "Float" in FF2/4J, which could be used to avoid taking floor damage.

Random Encounters: Kylotan is half right. I think random encounters are to be expected in a world full of hostile creatures (which also justifies the combat system, since apparently nobody kills less than 3,000 goblins a day), but in such abundance? And the repetitive nature of combat is what drove me away from the FF series in the first place. (That's right, I don't play those damn games anymore.) Square could definitely use some lessons in depth.

Combat System: I could go both ways on this one. Combat in any FF game sucks because there's so much of it, but the system is actually very fluid. Once you figure out a creature's weakness, you can use that against it the next time. The huge variety of options at your disposal is what makes the FF games so popular. People like to have plenty of options. Tone down the number of battles and I think the games could be good.

Music: Nobuo Uematsu is the most popular game musician in the world. Kylotan can't even touch this one. Whether you like the music or not, you aren't going to change the opinions of several hundred-million gamers. I like most FF music up to FF7, which is when Uematsu seems to have lost his touch.

Interface: Again, I could go either way. Every FF game uses basically the same interface. If you weren't a fan of the first five, you won't be a fan of the sixth one either. By now, the FF interface is second nature to everyone who's played the previous games. Kylotan is the exception, not the rule. However, I agree that character should come first, since this represents acting upon a character instead of a command. Commands are abstract, and they wreck immersion.

Conversation: Final Fantasy is more of a movie than a game. It would have been better had you known that before you started playing. Kylotan, you're ripping on a game that came out in 1994 for a 16-bit console system . Surely even you must think that's hitting below the belt.

Plot line: First half of the game was great. Second half was a complete waste of time. Everyone I've talked to agrees on this. You're not in for any pleasant surprises, Kylotan. Go play Chrono Trigger instead. In my opinion, it's the best combat-oriented RPG in existence.

Edited by - Tom on August 14, 2001 1:46:28 AM

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(Have only played Final Fantasy 7).
Random encounters (ie. encounters which happen every few seconds with a slightly randomised time-lapse).

-Good. Adds tension to roaming the more dangerous areas, as you don''t know when you will be ambushed.

-Good. Adds strategic resource management of magic / healing. Will you survive this area?

-Good. Imposes need to obtain magic / health. (Dynamic economy?).

-Good. A source frequent source of gameplay in what is really a story-book / Lucasarts'' adventure (with a few sub-games).

-Bad. Can be too frequent.
-Bad. Can''t always run away from tough encounters.

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I love FF6, so I''ll defend it. First of all, I''ll only compare
FF6 to games released during the snes era or before it. Games
today have much better hardware to work with, so its unfair
to compare them to FF6. Anyway, I love FF6 because it had
a good story, good music, great graphics compared to FF2 (which
was also a snes game), and lots of neat ideas. I don''t want
to spoil anything for you, so I can''t list all the ideas I
loved. But I guess how you judge a RPG comes down to what
you''re looking for. I don''t mind not being able to influence
a story, so the fact that FF6''s story is linear doesn''t bother
me one bit. But for some people, linear stories are a real
turn off. I also don''t mind if few tactics and strategy are
involved in the battles. The reason is that I play RPGs
because I like to role-play. I like to build my characters up
to extreme levels and learn all the spells, just so I have that
feeling that my characters are gods among men. Anyway,
there''s always the possibility that I just like FF6 because I
was younger then. I haven''t enjoyed FF7 - FF9 quite as much
as FF6, and I always wonder if FF has changed or if I''ve just
raised my standards as I''ve gotten older. Sorry this hasn''t
been a great defense, but I think you should play the entire
game through, because the game is more fun as the story
progresses.

----Blah

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Short-comings aside, FF6 was targeted at a younger audience. Funny, when FF4 was ported to the state, the dumbed it down even further, thinging all the options would confuse the American players. Almost all afflictions could be cured with 1 item, instead of the need of 8 different ones for example. I was young when I played both U7 and FF6, and one gripe with U7 was it was too complicated. If I went and played it again today, I would probably change my mind, but I was young, wanting immediate satisfaction. Apart from the opening of U7, it didn''t quite deliver. I''m a fan of old-school RPG''s. Most of today''s gamers are not. The satisfaction of walking up, down, up, down on 2 tiles for hours on end to gain, hitting A a bunch of times to gain levels goes above today''s player''s heads (so to speak). Oh, and FF6 gets more involved with options as you go. Character development becomes much more important later on. You will see when you get there, if you stick it out. FF6 was revolutionary. There was nothing like it at the time. But, you''ll see when you get there.

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quote:
Original post by Tom
Let''s get one thing straight before we move on: for whatever RPG elements Final Fantasy possesses, it''s nothing more than a glorified combat simulator.

''Glorified'' is a pretty accurate term for the game as a whole, as far as I can see. It''s not a bad game: far from it. But it''s been elevated to ''classic'' status without really justifying that status.

quote:
I think random encounters are to be expected in a world full of hostile creatures (which also justifies the combat system, since apparently nobody kills less than 3,000 goblins a day), but in such abundance?

Exactly. Random encounters are something I''ve grown up with in my RPGs, but the quantity and presentation is important. In FF6, it''s overkill, massively.

quote:
The huge variety of options at your disposal is what makes the FF games so popular. People like to have plenty of options.

I will have to take your word for it since right now I have hardly any options. Not that I need any: one shot of the autocrossbow appears to kill any group I meet. No doubt that will change.

quote:
Nobuo Uematsu is the most popular game musician in the world. Kylotan can''t even touch this one. Whether you like the music or not, you aren''t going to change the opinions of several hundred-million gamers.

Do you have cold hard data to back up this claim? Besides, just cos a lot of people say something is the case doesn''t make it true. Either way, I''m just playing devil''s advocate here: I quite clearly said "on the whole, the music is quite good" . It was more the fact that it gets repeated over and over. Presentation of the music rather than quality of the music. Perhaps part of the reason why everyone seems to love the overland map music, is because you tend to spend less time in that game mode than the others.

quote:
By now, the FF interface is second nature to everyone who''s played the previous games.
...
However, I agree that character should come first, since this represents acting upon a character instead of a command. Commands are abstract, and they wreck immersion.

Conformity to a standard is generally a good GUI decision as you are leveraging past user knowledge and paradigms. But as you said, the paradigm they chose was not a great one in the first place.

quote:
Final Fantasy is more of a movie than a game. It would have been better had you known that before you started playing. Kylotan, you''re ripping on a game that came out in 1994 for a 16-bit console system . Surely even you must think that''s hitting below the belt.

Firstly: I am mainly comparing it to Ultima VII, which came out in 1992. PCs in 92 were not much better than consoles, and most of them were also 16-bit. I have tried to stay away from issues such as world size, where Ultima has the advantage of the hard disk.

If you want to say it''s a great achievement, given the limitations, I cannot argue with that. However, a lot of people today say it is one of the greatest games they''ve played, and therefore, that implies that it measures up well against games new and old. Objectively, I just can''t see how this is so.

Game vs. movie: I am judging it for what it essentially is: a video game. If it plays like a movie, then why do so many people say it''s a great game? Besides, most decent RPGs attempt to provide a very immersive story, perhaps even of ''movie'' quality, so it''s not like FF6 is unique in this respect. Either way: I am just highlighting an other aspect that it lacks. The point of this thread was to ask "since it doesn''t do this, this, this or this very well, why does everyone like it?" Arguing "well, it was never supposed to do ''this'' in the first place" is a fair comment but not a relevant one. I am wondering what the attraction is, when you take away all the things that it doesn''t do well.

quote:
Plot line: First half of the game was great. Second half was a complete waste of time. Everyone I''ve talked to agrees on this. You''re not in for any pleasant surprises, Kylotan. Go play Chrono Trigger instead. In my opinion, it''s the best combat-oriented RPG in existence.

Perhaps I will. I am mainly only doing this for research purposes, anyway.

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quote:
Original post by Jonus
To Kylotan :
How many hours have you played so far? Where are you right now in FF6?
That is off-topic for this thread Disagree with my points, but not with me

Seriously though, I haven''t got very far, but (a) I have made this clear in the points I have conveyed, and (b) all the indications are that it gets worse, not better (see the Cliché list, see Tom''s response above).

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Compairing U7 (i love that game) and FF6 is unfair because the equipment cost at that time for a PC need to run that game are much to high, not to forget the troubles to run that game, not to mention the bad performance(loading on every step) and random crashes, ...

Random encounters :
In the days when FF6 was released random encounters where the easiest way for the developer to implement a challanging and scalable method to initiate battles. There are rooms where the time period between battles is longer and others where it is extremly short. INHO Random encounters are well done in FF6, but when you like to advance fast through the game like you, then they *maybe* suck. The days i bought that game (i payed arround 100$ for it), i enjoyed every second of the game, even the random stuff.

Combat system :
Is very good. It has different kinds of elemental damage, damage absorb stuff, tons of different spells, each character has unique spells/skills, the right equipment is essential for victory, there are many hidden things (econominizer, imp equipment, luminus (just to name a few things)), mage tower. It is fast.

That Combat system is 1000end times better that the ones of BoF1-4, DW1-6, Chronotrigger (only the combo moves rock), Wizardy, FF7&8 and its much more strategical than U7 battles where again *sign* dupre alone runs after that damn fleeing headless and finally gets killed at the other side of the world by a lich.

Music :
Is brilliant. Uses all what a SNES has to offer.

Interface :
The interface is something very unimportant for a RPG IMHO. It works. Can you remember the cool interface of U6? With Keyboard? Great! lol

Conversation :
quote:
Repeatedly clicking to get through conversation seems pretty boring and almost pointless.
No offence, but read the text and follow the storyline ... btw have you cyan allready in your party?

Plot line :
Is good IMHO and i enjoyed the second half. :D

Character design :
Is top. Each char has its own music theme its own sidestory, ...

When something sounds unfriendly or offensive - sorry its 'cause of my bad english. Kylotan i recomend you play FF6 to the end before you judge it so hard. Its a classic.


Edited by - Jonus on August 14, 2001 6:21:44 PM

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How I came to thinking FF3/6 was the best of its kind.

I think maybe my opinion on FF6 comes from the RPGs I''ve played before it. Bard''s Tale was the first I think. After that was Dragon Warior. The jump here was going from staring at walls and walking through essentially a giant maze to there being characters you can actually see and enviroments that were less like mazes. Sometime after I saw my cousin playing FF1 which looked about the same but with different character classes. Thus when I saw FF2(4j) on the rental shelf I figured I knew what it was like. I liked games like that, so why not. I hadn''t played an RPG where the character classes were decided upon for you. It eventually seemed to me to be an effective way of presenting the plot. The music was also much better. (It''s always been repetitive. Try listening to the Ballad of Sir Robin for some 6 hours streight because you''re too cheep to buy a torch or cast a light spell.) I then expected FF3(6j) to be better still (I was young, sequels were good). The towns not being so heavilly tile based rendered and the way spells were learned was enough for me. Yeah, I noticed a few of the cliches. The music got anoying at points. Constant encounters were irritating. Just the same, I got pulled into the story enough to like the characters to want to see what happened. After FF6, graphic and sound upgrades weren''t enough for me (it''s been done and is expected). I''ve played a few other games of this style and enjoyed them, but FF6 still sticks out in my mind. Like I said before, that middle ground between something new and a tired old sequel. Though my tastes have since changed, memories of how impressed I was remain just as valid.

I think a great deal of why I liked the game has to do with when I played it.

Elements of the game that I liked include the music, the magic system, the graphics, the story. Also Kefka made a pretty good bad guy. I think there''s what''s called a biblical allusion there and I''m not just talking about his final form.

I''ve played others. Ultima 6 & 7, Sentinal Worlds, Starflight, Wasteland. I''ve got this book sitting around somewhere full of passwords and other game notes. I''ve gotten tired of taking a dozens notes to remember where to go or who to look for. People overlook bad game elements all the time if other elements seem inovative enough to them. It''s the way of things. Every element can be pulled apart, disected, and analyzied as to its cultural value. But then it''s not fun anymore. And attempts to take things that made one game popular and place them into another game... well there''s a reason that cliche list is there. These games gotta sell, right?

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quote:
Original post by Kylotan
Do you have cold hard data to back up this claim? Besides, just cos a lot of people say something is the case doesn't make it true. Either way, I'm just playing devil's advocate here: I quite clearly said "on the whole, the music is quite good" . It was more the fact that it gets repeated over and over. Presentation of the music rather than quality of the music. Perhaps part of the reason why everyone seems to love the overland map music, is because you tend to spend less time in that game mode than the others.

Actually, you are quite mistaken here. If everyone in the world said the Earth is flat, and the sun revolves around it, then in the minds of everyone it would be true. Scientifically it would be stupid, but we're talking about the majority of opinions, which are intrinsically unscientific. I think less than one percent of FF fans did not like the music.

You mentioned the overworld music and how it repeats. Well, personally I like the song (it's called "Tina"). Uematsu always makes good overworld music (except for FF8 which sucked ass in every way including the music). Also remember the technical limitations of a system designed in the late 80's. The SNES has 64K of memory devoted to music, and it needs to use this memory to load compressed wave samples. If you do the math, that doesn't leave much memory for lengthy and dynamic symphonies. Anyone who can make good music on a SNES is a technical genius. Despite Sony's revolutionary audio engine (the SPC-700), proprietary music formats were commonplace on the SNES.

quote:
If you want to say it's a great achievement, given the limitations, I cannot argue with that. However, a lot of people today say it is one of the greatest games they've played, and therefore, that implies that it measures up well against games new and old. Objectively, I just can't see how this is so.

For all the reasons we've already stated. You're obviously too old to understand why a game was popular seven years ago. If you didn't play it then, you won't appreciate it now. It's the same way for any game. I just started playing Simon's Quest again recently, and I cannot understand for the life of me why it was one of my favorite games.

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Game vs. movie: I am judging it for what it essentially is: a video game. If it plays like a movie, then why do so many people say it's a great game? . . .

Because it is a game, and seven years ago it was a great game. The definition of computer gaming ties directly into computer technology, and if you haven't figured it out already, I've got a newsflash for you: computer technology is changing by leaps and bounds. Games are also changing by leaps and bounds. What makes FF6 a game is that you play it. Gameplay does not tie directly into the story. Just because a plot is linear doesn't mean it isn't a game (Super Mario Bros., Castlevania, Quake, Diablo II, StarCraft).

This is coming from someone who used to call FF an "interactive movie," because like you, I couldn't really see the gameplay for the graphics. I've never been particularly fond of games that involve nothing but pointless fighting and one-sided characters. You will never hear me say FF6 is the best CRPG of all time, because it simply isn't. I've played far too many games and heard far too many opinions to believe that. I don't really think there is a best. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. If I were forced to choose, I'd say Daggerfall is the best, but that's another post.

Edited by - Tom on August 15, 2001 6:34:40 AM

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quote:
Original post by Jonus
Compairing U7 (i love that game) and FF6 is unfair because the equipment cost at that time for a PC need to run that game are much to high, not to forget the troubles to run that game, not to mention the bad performance(loading on every step) and random crashes, ...

No, these are perfectly good reasons to compare them. If you have counter arguments like the above, then simply state them, don't get all defensive... I don't claim Ultima 7 is beyond criticism. I mentioned the awkward movement system and agreed that the inventory management gets unwieldy, for example. (Never had random crashes, though.)

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INHO Random encounters are well done in FF6, but when you like to advance fast through the game like you, then they *maybe* suck.

No, I don't care how quickly I advance through the game. I do care about how often and repetitively something happens.

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...and its much more strategical than U7 battles where again *sign* dupre alone runs after that damn fleeing headless and finally gets killed at the other side of the world by a lich.

The Dupre point is a fair one But I still haven't seen much in the way of tactics in FF6 so far. Strategy, yes: get an autocrossbow and you win everything. I don't think this is what you had in mind, though Maybe it'll get better later.

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Interface :
The interface is something very unimportant for a RPG IMHO. It works. Can you remember the cool interface of U6? With Keyboard? Great! lol

Actually, I never played U6. Not easy to (legally) get here. I think the interface is very important since everything you do involves it. My other thread addresses this.

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No offence, but read the text and follow the storyline ... btw have you cyan allready in your party?

I read the text, I follow the storyline. It's still almost all linear and doesn't let you feel like there's much control. If I just want reams of text recited to me, I read a book.

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When something sounds unfriendly or offensive - sorry its 'cause of my bad english.

Don't worry: your English is far better than my Deutsch.

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Kylotan i recomend you play FF6 to the end before you judge it so hard. Its a classic.

I knew someone would say this, so I had prepared my response before I even got online

It's unfair to expect that the only people who can judge a game are those who complete it. I estimate that in general people only complete a small proportion of the games they buy. The only part of the game you can guarantee everyone has played is the beginning. So it is important that a game doesn't rely on a good ending to 'rescue' it. I do intend completing the game, and if I change my mind on anything, I will post here. The mere fact that I am making an effort to complete a game that I was pretty sure I didn't like anyway, should give you an indication that I am trying to be unbiased and broaden my horizons.

Edited by - Kylotan on August 15, 2001 10:43:53 AM

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quote:
Original post by Tom
Actually, you are quite mistaken here. If everyone in the world said the Earth is flat, and the sun revolves around it, then in the minds of everyone it would be true. Scientifically it would be stupid, but we''re talking about the majority of opinions, which are intrinsically unscientific. I think less than one percent of FF fans did not like the music.

Well, this all depends. In psychology there is a phenomenon known as the halo effect. If you want more info, you can look it up, but essentially the hypothesis applies to this situation in that, if everybody loved the game, they are more likely to like the music than if they hated the game. Or, to phrase it another way, take the FF6 music, put it in a boring game, and when asked to rate the music, people will rate it lower. So it''s not such a bad concept to discuss. Even subjective opinions all come down to a myriad of objective concepts at some stage, even if the person holding that opinion doesn''t know it.

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You mentioned the overworld music and how it repeats. Well, personally I like the song (it''s called "Tina"). Uematsu always makes good overworld music (except for FF8 which sucked ass in every way including the music). Also remember the technical limitations of a system designed in the late 80''s. The SNES has 64K of memory devoted to music, and it needs to use this memory to load compressed wave samples.

They could always just not repeat it more than 3 or 4 times? I suppose that''s a matter of taste though. I quite like silence in games, or at least silence filled with occasional atmospheric sound effects.

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You''re obviously too old to understand why a game was popular seven years ago. If you didn''t play it then, you won''t appreciate it now. It''s the same way for any game. I just started playing Simon''s Quest again recently, and I cannot understand for the life of me why it was one of my favorite games.

I''m not sure I understand you... are you just saying that my tastes have matured with age? Some of my favourite games are games I played in the 80s. I have The Bard''s Tale 2 installed right now, although I rarely play it, almost entirely down to the awful PC speaker music

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If I were forced to choose, I''d say Daggerfall is the best, but that''s another post.

Controversial! Daggerfall was one of those games that had so much promise that it couldn''t quite live up to. I think the people who loved Daggerfall were those who are able to "take the good and leave the bad", whereas for someone like me, the bad elements tend to spoil things. Lowest common denominator and all that. I would agree that it''s better than FF6, but going back to what''s been covered already, Daggerfall was obviously aimed at a different audience.

But yeah... that''s for another post

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Let''s go through this, shall we?

quote:
Original post by Kylotan
Any old timers on this board may know that I consider Ultima VII to be the greatest RPG of all time. I''ve always considered the Final Fantasy series, and all the other Squarealike games be be pretty inferior by comparison. I''ve watched the FF games be played, but not really played them myself. But recently, I started playing Final Fantasy 6 (aka 3 in the US, I think), which is commonly regarded as the best of the lot by many.

I admit I haven''t got very far yet, but I will report back if I change my views. But I must admit that playing this game has only reinforced my opinion. The Final Fantasy games are somewhat overrated. Here''s a few of my thoughts:



So let me see, you haven''t played very far yet, but still you wish to pass judement ona game whose full flavor you have not yet experienced? Let''s make an analogy here, FFIII is like wine. As wine grows with age, it gets better, as does FFIII.

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Random encounters : now I know people on here have complained about random encounters, and I have tended to go along with them. But little did I know it could get This bad. It seems like this game throws random encounters at me every 10 seconds or so. These get old after about the 3rd in any given dungeon/terrain type as they are almost inevitably against exactly the same type of foes. In the early stages of the game at least, I have very few options in combat and they all work out about the same anyway. These encounters take me out of whatever I am doing (exploring or travelling somewhere) and place me in a different context, where the outcome is pretty much assured anyway. What''s the point?



The point is, it adds a little bit of challenge to the game, and i''m not saying games where you can see the enemies AREN''T challenging. You should remember that random battles began with Dragon Warrior, which was the first true modern day RPG.

quote:

Combat system : Sorry guys, since I know 90% of you RPG people are developing combat systems like this, but it sucks. Ok, I''ll be more objective. The scope for tactics is minimal: each character has few options available, making defeat or failure almost entirely based on equipment. The scope for manouevring is next to non-existent. (Contrast with Ultima, Baldur''s Gate, or Diablo, where you can get behind obstacles or doorways to better defend yourself, at a bare minimum.) About the only good thing about the system is the nice way they mixed turn-based and real-time combat... shame they didn''t manage to preserve many of the benefits of either.



First of all, Diablo should have never even been mentioned in this post. That''s ridiculous to compare Diablo to Final Fantasy, one is clearly an RPG, the other is clearly an ACTION RPG. Check up on your genres. Secondly, you talk about no strategy, but then you say that the outcome is based entirely on equipment, a complete contradiction. Did you ever think that the way you equip your characters with armor, weapons and relics may be an important strategic part of the game? Not to mention Magicite, which you don''t even know about yet because you haven''t played a decent amount of the game.

quote:

Music : on the whole, the music is quite good. The main theme in particular is very good. But it gets repetitive. It seems to repeat forever when you''re in a certain place and this truly starts to grate. Worst of all is the combat music. This is obviously a side-effect of the random encounter problem, but when you''ve heard that same combat tune and victory tune 40 times in 10 minutes, it starts to piss you off!



Check your history bud, that Victory theme is tradition and has been around since the very first final fantasy. As for the rest of the soundtrack, the only video game soundtrack i think that could even come close is Chrono Trigger''s.

quote:

Interface : their menu system is pretty unintuitive. (For those of you who disagree instantly, try looking at it from the point of view of someone who hasn''t played all the previous games.) Rather than picking a character and then the action you want to perform on it, you pick an action and then specify the character you want to perform it upon. This is pretty convention-defying and, as far as I can see, doesn''t gain you anything. Perhaps it''s conventional for SNES games, though. Sometimes it gives you options that are pointless: like magic screens for people who don''t have magic. (Maybe they get magic later: but why bother having the screen accessible in the meantime? Removing the menu option and then adding it later would provide a good cue to the player that a new option is available, whereas having to keep check a submenu to see if anything new is on it is a hassle.)



It''s not really that odd to pick the character first, and then the action... why is that so weird as opposed to the other way around? For someone who seems to portent that he is an expert on all other RPG''s, you could be a little more open to new ideas, ESPECIALLY if you have never played the game or a game in the series before. The best games of our times are not necessarily the most "conventional" ones. About the Magic thing, you should really play more of the game, a wonderful gameplay (and strategic) element comes in and it''s quite useful.

quote:

Conversation
Repeatedly clicking to get through conversation seems pretty boring and almost pointless. At least in Ultima VII you get to choose the order in which you ask things, and ignore stuff you''re not interested in. In Baldur''s Gate you get to influence the plot with your choice of response. I''ve barely seen any interaction in the conversation in FF6.



I don''t even need to touch this one, it''s like you''ve NEVER played any old school RPG in your entire life.

quote:

Plot line : Disclaimer: I know I am nowhere near as far into the game as I need to be to deliver a good verdict on the plot. So I''m open to being proven wrong here. But from what I can tell, it seems pretty shallow. Go to The RPG Clichés Game page and read through that list. Much of that list relates to Final Fantasy 6 and others in the series, and casts a very unflattering light on the storyline. Given that these guys know the series far better than I do, yet find it clichéd, I can only assume from what they say and what I''ve seen so far that the Ultima 7 storyline is far better. And no: most of the clichés on that page do not apply to Ultima. Some do, but a far fewer number.



So you haven''t played that far, which we''ve established a number of times, yet you still pass judgement. If you''re going to talk about cliches in gaming, well then maybe Final Fantasy has them, but as another poster stated, Final Fantasy MADE those cliches.

quote:

Now, there are some good aspects to the game (including sub-aspects of the above mentioned aspects) but I''m not interested in mentioning them here. They are outweighed by the irritations and this makes me say the FF series are merely good games, certainly not great ones. Given my oppositions raised above, why do so many (of you) like these games? How on earth did they reach cult status? Is it just the animé thing? Do you all just have bad taste? What am I missing?


The problem is, you won''t open your Ultima 7 clouded eyes and look at those sub-aspects that make the game better. Here''s a thought for you. There is probably a FF fan out there, who played Ultima 7 (maybe, like, the WHOLE game) and is posting about what irritates HIM about IT. I think you need to sit down and play the game, quit making irrelevant comparisons, and try to enjoy those sub-aspects of the game, because you know what, that is what makes some games so damn good. Chrono Trigger would have been just another RPG if it hadn''t been for all the small touches and side quests that made it worth playing again and again.

Peace out.

MrMexTaco

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quote:
It''s unfair to expect that the only people who can judge a game are those who complete it.

I can''t aggree with that.




Let''s say you are a moderator of amazone. You read the first chapter of a book with 20 chapters. Your area is scifi and the book is fantasy. You don''t like fantasy, but you are trying to broaden your horizon, so you give the book a try.
But after that first chaper you notice that it sucks IYHO and that you better stick with scifi. Never the less you must now write a critic for amazone. So what to do?




You can only rate things you''ve seen but NOT things you haven''t.
So IMO its true that the only people who can judge a game are those who complete it.

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Ooh, something of a troll. Let''s begin.
quote:
Original post by SoLongMrMexTaco
So let me see, you haven''t played very far yet, but still you wish to pass judement ona game whose full flavor you have not yet experienced? Let''s make an analogy here, FFIII is like wine. As wine grows with age, it gets better, as does FFIII.

Ok, so say that, without insulting my objective analysis. Argue with the points, not with the man.

quote:
The point is, it adds a little bit of challenge to the game, and i''m not saying games where you can see the enemies AREN''T challenging. You should remember that random battles began with Dragon Warrior, which was the first true modern day RPG.

Why should I remember where they came from? What relevance does origin have to the discussion?

Besides, you''re very wrong. Computer RPGs were using random encounters long before 1989, which is when Dragon Warrior came out. Example: The Bard''s Tale, which came out in 1985. There are probably some earlier than that, too. So if you''re going to start lecturing me on not knowing my RPG history, better do some more research yourself first.

quote:
First of all, Diablo should have never even been mentioned in this post. That''s ridiculous to compare Diablo to Final Fantasy, one is clearly an RPG, the other is clearly an ACTION RPG. Check up on your genres.

Genre-fascism is off-topic for these discussion boards. Genres overlap and are ill-defined. One person even made the point that FF6 isn''t so much of a game as a movie. Diablo has a magic system, combat, equipment affecting the character, an inventory, a game world, trading of items, experience points, statistics, quests, levels, a plot line, etc etc etc. It is clearly very close to FF6 in many ways. It is therefore relevant to compare and contrast certain points.

quote:
Secondly, you talk about no strategy, but then you say that the outcome is based entirely on equipment, a complete contradiction.

Did I? Actually, no, I did not. I said TACTICS. Tactics does not equal strategy, no matter what the clueless marketing people labelling Command and Conquer thought. In fact, I conceded (somewhat flippantly, I admit) in a previous post that FF6 has strategy, but lacks much in the way of tactics. So, make sure you either read my posts properly, or learn your terminology, whichever was the reason for your mistake here. In the context of a computer RPG, choosing equipment before battle is a strategical choice, not a tactical one.

quote:
Check your history bud, that Victory theme is tradition and has been around since the very first final fantasy. As for the rest of the soundtrack, the only video game soundtrack i think that could even come close is Chrono Trigger''s.

This point lacks any objective basis. This is not a "well, I like it so you suck" thread. Post a reason, or don''t post. And need I repeat for the 3rd time that I actually quite like the music, but find the way it is presented to be not too good? Apparently so.


quote:
It''s not really that odd to pick the character first, and then the action... why is that so weird as opposed to the other way around?

Now you''re getting mixed up... picking the character first makes more sense from a browsing point of view and a psychological point of view. As someone else (Tom?) said, commands are abstract whereas characters are more concrete. And what if I just want to view a character? Commands imply that I want to change something. Like any interface, you can adapt to it, but that doesn''t make it a great interface.

quote:
For someone who seems to portent that he is an expert on all other RPG''s, you could be a little more open to new ideas, ESPECIALLY if you have never played the game or a game in the series before.

Did I say I was an expert? No: the first person to use the word ''expert'' in this thread was you with that sentence. Another point with no basis.

Breaking interface conventions should be done for a good reason. Otherwise, you lose familiarity for no benefit. Now, as someone else pointed out, there is ''backwards familiarity'' with the previous FF games, which justifies it as a fair design choice for FF6, but not such a good choice in the first place.


quote:
I don''t even need to touch this one, it''s like you''ve NEVER played any old school RPG in your entire life.

Now you''ve stopped making points with no basis, and chosen to not even attempt to make a point.

I''ve played lots of games. In fact, I was probably programming games before you even played one, although I could be underestimating your age here. Playing 1 game should not need to be the basis of playing another. A game stands or falls on its own merits.

quote:

So you haven''t played that far, which we''ve established a number of times, yet you still pass judgement. If you''re going to talk about cliches in gaming, well then maybe Final Fantasy has them, but as another poster stated, Final Fantasy MADE those cliches.

Are my points any less valid for not having completed the game? At several points I clearly stated that things could change later on, and invited people to explain how this could be so. 1 person said it gets better, 1 person said it gets worse. As for the clichés, it''s all very well and good inventing them (although I don''t necessarily agree on that point), but by the time the 5th sequel comes around a little originality goes a long way.

quote:
The problem is, you won''t open your Ultima 7 clouded eyes and look at those sub-aspects that make the game better.

No, I am being objective and asking people to justify the game. It''s called provoking discussion.

quote:
Here''s a thought for you. There is probably a FF fan out there, who played Ultima 7 (maybe, like, the WHOLE game) and is posting about what irritates HIM about IT. I think you need to sit down and play the game, quit making irrelevant comparisons, and try to enjoy those sub-aspects of the game, because you know what, that is what makes some games so damn good.

Good for them! If you find him or her, bring them here to discuss it, we can see what is good or bad about it, and we can all learn something.

Your problem is that you are obviously taking this to be an attack on a game you love and you want to defend it. But that is missing the point entirely. This forum is for debating game design issues. Even if a game is 95% perfect, it makes sense to debate that last 5%. You don''t just say "well, I enjoy it, so forget all the bad parts." If you want to do that, you don''t have much of a place in Game Design. Game Design is about making things better. I have no problem with anyone pointing out Ultima VII''s failings whatsoever. If I didn''t want people to make direct comparisons or criticisms of the game, I wouldn''t even have mentioned Ultima VII in the first post.

In short, stop getting so worked up about my views, because they are posted here so we can have a discussion about the good and the bad. If you disagree, do so on a strictly factual level, not on a personal one!

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quote:
Original post by Jonus
I can''t aggree with that.

Let''s say you are a moderator of amazone. You read the first chapter of a book with 20 chapters. Your area is scifi and the book is fantasy. You don''t like fantasy, but you are trying to broaden your horizon, so you give the book a try.
But after that first chaper you notice that it sucks IYHO and that you better stick with scifi. Never the less you must now write a critic for amazone. So what to do?

You can only rate things you''ve seen but NOT things you haven''t.
So IMO its true that the only people who can judge a game are those who complete it.

Books are very different from games. If you can read, you can complete the book. Whereas most games do not get completed by the buyer. (I believe the statistic was more like 10%, but I can''t verify that.)

With this in mind, books are written as a unit. It is assumed that you read the whole thing because there is no reason not to. Almost everything about them revolves around the story and that comes to a natural conclusion at the end.

Games are different. Most of them do not get completed. Also, there is expectation that people can play part of it and still enjoy it. It is an ongoing entertainment medium, somewhat more similar to a series of books than a single book. Games also have more than just storyline to consider. Although a storyline can only truly be appreciated once you''ve seen it all, a game has many aspects that can be judged early on. Do you need to play all 32 levels of Doom 2 to decide whether the controls are good or bad? Of course not. The same goes for music, graphics, the interface, and so on.

Given that most games do not get completed, this also means that if you only ever listen to the input from people who complete a game, you''re only listening to those who already like it. The feedback you get is heavily biased. You''re not going to hear from those who couldn''t master the controls, or who found the graphics too ugly to play through to the end, or whatever. What if the game was too hard to complete? Are you not entitled to say that? Or is your opinion automatically void? Of course not. The start of the game is just as important as the end, especially when you are evaluating the gameplay and not just the story. There are many aspects of gameplay that can be discussed without having to see the end cutscene.

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I loved FF6. It is truely a Classic in my opinion. No matter what anyone says to me, in my heart and mind FF6 rulez! And I don''t listen to those big critic guys either. Did you know they said the new Planet of the Apes movie sucked, but over 96% of the people who have seen it liked it and really want a sequeal? (thats why they are starting on it soon... I hope... heh)

Anyway, Final Fantasy 6 got me started into the series and I have enjoyed every single FF that I have played since FF6. (which is about all of them except for the non SquareSoft FF''s.)

I was just wondering. I am also making a game inspired by the Final Fantasy series. I was wondering if any of you who dispise the random battle system would enjoy to watch a sort of mini move for the Boss Battles of the game. This VERY special feature will most likely be an add-on. (A free add-on for those who have already purchased the game of course.) You would have to change it from the default option in the menu and basically it removes all random battles and most of the In-game Menu. Then it replaces the Boss Battles with a mini-movie that would show the characters struggleing, etc, etc, but of course in the end always win. :-P I''ll need more idea''s on this to make the sequences intresting to watch and as much as possible a graphical masterpeice to see.

Alex Ford
PointSoft EA Co., Ltd.
http://www.pointsoftonline.com

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Hey, I was wondering where can I get those old games like Secret of Mana and FF3? I was reading about them in a tutorial ( http://24.70.255.173/tutorial ) and I want to see there graphics. They''re so old I would think they would be free by now or something (at least I think they''re old. I don''t know anything about the FF series besides that it has 9 or 10 games in it, and that they made a movie for it). So if anybody could tell me where I could get them that would be appreciated

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I believe we have both made valid points, if you take them as me replying to a personal attack, that''s just great for you.

Let''s have another go:

As for the "I like it so it rules" statement you made, the music is part of Final Fantasy, especially the Victory theme. It''s tradition to have that in there at the end of all battles. Wine (my, i do love analogies with wine) is still made by people getting in a huge vat and stomping grapes in bare feet, because it is tradition. Some people may not like having other people''s feet having produced their drink, but it may be something they have to live with. And i will admit that some of the musical themes can get old in final fantasy VI, but i beleive the same could probably be said for Ultima VII or any other game on the face of this planet. Themes are made, then used, then re-used. The music for Final FAntasy VI is not bad music by any means, and widely regarded as some of the best video game music around, but they were working on a cartridge, with 24 megabytes of space. Cut them a little slack, huh?

Regarding the "Choose the character first, then the action" issue, well, it doesn''t make any more sense to choose the character first than it does to choose the action. It''s an bad argument by saying that doing something one way is better than another if both yeild the same result in the same time frame. I''ll give you a hypothetical situation: say you are healing your party, and you are going to use an item to heal a character. In final fantasy you choose the Item command from the menu, then choose the item and then choose the character. In Ultima you would choose the character, choose the item command, then choose the item. IT''s the same thing, but in different order. If you''re not used to the order, well that''s perfectly acceptable. You accused me of making more personal remarks, but you saying that the FF system is not as good jsut because you like a different system more oesn''t mean that that part of the gameplay is then not as good, just different.

As for the book analogy that was made by another poster, consider this. If the first chapter is bad, that doesn''t mean that the last 19 chapters are bad as well. I found the first chapters of the Lord of the Rings trilogy to be horribly boring, but overall i think it is a fantastic book. So by playing the first section of a game and then judging the gameplay elements, even small things like the menu or random encounters, you''re view is not as objective as it may be when you complete the game. Strategy and Tactics are related as well, by equipping Edgar with a Genji Glove, he can weild two weapons, giving him twice the attack power. By using float and wall spells you can avoid majic attacks. If locke uses a boomerang from the back row, he can save himself some damage but still have the same attack power than he would using a dagger. By equipping certain types of magicite, characters learn spells at different speeds, and also get certain bonuses when leveling up, not to mention having different esper attacks. By choosing your party wisely, you also choose the skills you want to use. When banon is in your party, one option is to put him and terra in the back, with edgar and sabin in the front. Edgar and Sabin use physical skills like "tools" and "blitz" while Terra and Banon use "Magic", "Heal" and "Items." There are a lot more tactics than you think to beating an enemy. Need to kill a brachosaur? WEll, instead of using a full out attack against him, why don''t you just use "Invisible" on him, and then "Doom." That is a tactic. From my examples, i hope you realize that even in battle there is a lot more you can do, especially with magic and character selection.

Oh, btw, regarding whoever posted the book analogy, i think if you have to do a review of a book for a company, you had better damn well read it all, most businesses don''t tolerate half-assed jobs.

Thanks for your time, this is turning into quite the debate.


Peace out.

MrMexTaco

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