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• By elect
Hi,
ok, so, we are having problems with our current mirror reflection implementation.
At the moment we are doing it very simple, so for the i-th frame, we calculate the reflection vectors given the viewPoint and some predefined points on the mirror surface (position and normal).
Then, using the least squared algorithm, we find the point that has the minimum distance from all these reflections vectors. This is going to be our virtual viewPoint (with the right orientation).
After that, we render offscreen to a texture by setting the OpenGL camera on the virtual viewPoint.
And finally we use the rendered texture on the mirror surface.
So far this has always been fine, but now we are having some more strong constraints on accuracy.
What are our best options given that:
- we have a dynamic scene, the mirror and parts of the scene can change continuously from frame to frame
- we have about 3k points (with normals) per mirror, calculated offline using some cad program (such as Catia)
- all the mirror are always perfectly spherical (with different radius vertically and horizontally) and they are always convex
- a scene can have up to 10 mirror
- it should be fast enough also for vr (Htc Vive) on fastest gpus (only desktops)

Looking around, some papers talk about calculating some caustic surface derivation offline, but I don't know if this suits my case
Also, another paper, used some acceleration structures to detect the intersection between the reflection vectors and the scene, and then adjust the corresponding texture coordinate. This looks the most accurate but also very heavy from a computational point of view.

Other than that, I couldn't find anything updated/exhaustive around, can you help me?

• Hello all,
I am currently working on a game engine for use with my game development that I would like to be as flexible as possible.  As such the exact requirements for how things should work can't be nailed down to a specific implementation and I am looking for, at least now, a default good average case scenario design.
Here is what I have implemented:
Deferred rendering using OpenGL Arbitrary number of lights and shadow mapping Each rendered object, as defined by a set of geometry, textures, animation data, and a model matrix is rendered with its own draw call Skeletal animations implemented on the GPU.   Model matrix transformation implemented on the GPU Frustum and octree culling for optimization Here are my questions and concerns:
Doing the skeletal animation on the GPU, currently, requires doing the skinning for each object multiple times per frame: once for the initial geometry rendering and once for the shadow map rendering for each light for which it is not culled.  This seems very inefficient.  Is there a way to do skeletal animation on the GPU only once across these render calls? Without doing the model matrix transformation on the CPU, I fail to see how I can easily batch objects with the same textures and shaders in a single draw call without passing a ton of matrix data to the GPU (an array of model matrices then an index for each vertex into that array for transformation purposes?) If I do the matrix transformations on the CPU, It seems I can't really do the skinning on the GPU as the pre-transformed vertexes will wreck havoc with the calculations, so this seems not viable unless I am missing something Overall it seems like simplest solution is to just do all of the vertex manipulation on the CPU and pass the pre-transformed data to the GPU, using vertex shaders that do basically nothing.  This doesn't seem the most efficient use of the graphics hardware, but could potentially reduce the number of draw calls needed.

Really, I am looking for some advice on how to proceed with this, how something like this is typically handled.  Are the multiple draw calls and skinning calculations not a huge deal?  I would LIKE to save as much of the CPU's time per frame so it can be tasked with other things, as to keep CPU resources open to the implementation of the engine.  However, that becomes a moot point if the GPU becomes a bottleneck.

• Hello!
I would like to introduce Diligent Engine, a project that I've been recently working on. Diligent Engine is a light-weight cross-platform abstraction layer between the application and the platform-specific graphics API. Its main goal is to take advantages of the next-generation APIs such as Direct3D12 and Vulkan, but at the same time provide support for older platforms via Direct3D11, OpenGL and OpenGLES. Diligent Engine exposes common front-end for all supported platforms and provides interoperability with underlying native API. Shader source code converter allows shaders authored in HLSL to be translated to GLSL and used on all platforms. Diligent Engine supports integration with Unity and is designed to be used as a graphics subsystem in a standalone game engine, Unity native plugin or any other 3D application. It is distributed under Apache 2.0 license and is free to use. Full source code is available for download on GitHub.
Features:
True cross-platform Exact same client code for all supported platforms and rendering backends No #if defined(_WIN32) ... #elif defined(LINUX) ... #elif defined(ANDROID) ... No #if defined(D3D11) ... #elif defined(D3D12) ... #elif defined(OPENGL) ... Exact same HLSL shaders run on all platforms and all backends Modular design Components are clearly separated logically and physically and can be used as needed Only take what you need for your project (do not want to keep samples and tutorials in your codebase? Simply remove Samples submodule. Only need core functionality? Use only Core submodule) No 15000 lines-of-code files Clear object-based interface No global states Key graphics features: Automatic shader resource binding designed to leverage the next-generation rendering APIs Multithreaded command buffer generation 50,000 draw calls at 300 fps with D3D12 backend Descriptor, memory and resource state management Modern c++ features to make code fast and reliable The following platforms and low-level APIs are currently supported:
Windows Desktop: Direct3D11, Direct3D12, OpenGL Universal Windows: Direct3D11, Direct3D12 Linux: OpenGL Android: OpenGLES MacOS: OpenGL iOS: OpenGLES API Basics
Initialization
The engine can perform initialization of the API or attach to already existing D3D11/D3D12 device or OpenGL/GLES context. For instance, the following code shows how the engine can be initialized in D3D12 mode:
#include "RenderDeviceFactoryD3D12.h" using namespace Diligent; // ...  GetEngineFactoryD3D12Type GetEngineFactoryD3D12 = nullptr; // Load the dll and import GetEngineFactoryD3D12() function LoadGraphicsEngineD3D12(GetEngineFactoryD3D12); auto *pFactoryD3D11 = GetEngineFactoryD3D12(); EngineD3D12Attribs EngD3D12Attribs; EngD3D12Attribs.CPUDescriptorHeapAllocationSize[0] = 1024; EngD3D12Attribs.CPUDescriptorHeapAllocationSize[1] = 32; EngD3D12Attribs.CPUDescriptorHeapAllocationSize[2] = 16; EngD3D12Attribs.CPUDescriptorHeapAllocationSize[3] = 16; EngD3D12Attribs.NumCommandsToFlushCmdList = 64; RefCntAutoPtr<IRenderDevice> pRenderDevice; RefCntAutoPtr<IDeviceContext> pImmediateContext; SwapChainDesc SwapChainDesc; RefCntAutoPtr<ISwapChain> pSwapChain; pFactoryD3D11->CreateDeviceAndContextsD3D12( EngD3D12Attribs, &pRenderDevice, &pImmediateContext, 0 ); pFactoryD3D11->CreateSwapChainD3D12( pRenderDevice, pImmediateContext, SwapChainDesc, hWnd, &pSwapChain ); Creating Resources
Device resources are created by the render device. The two main resource types are buffers, which represent linear memory, and textures, which use memory layouts optimized for fast filtering. To create a buffer, you need to populate BufferDesc structure and call IRenderDevice::CreateBuffer(). The following code creates a uniform (constant) buffer:
BufferDesc BuffDesc; BufferDesc.Name = "Uniform buffer"; BuffDesc.BindFlags = BIND_UNIFORM_BUFFER; BuffDesc.Usage = USAGE_DYNAMIC; BuffDesc.uiSizeInBytes = sizeof(ShaderConstants); BuffDesc.CPUAccessFlags = CPU_ACCESS_WRITE; m_pDevice->CreateBuffer( BuffDesc, BufferData(), &m_pConstantBuffer ); Similar, to create a texture, populate TextureDesc structure and call IRenderDevice::CreateTexture() as in the following example:
TextureDesc TexDesc; TexDesc.Name = "My texture 2D"; TexDesc.Type = TEXTURE_TYPE_2D; TexDesc.Width = 1024; TexDesc.Height = 1024; TexDesc.Format = TEX_FORMAT_RGBA8_UNORM; TexDesc.Usage = USAGE_DEFAULT; TexDesc.BindFlags = BIND_SHADER_RESOURCE | BIND_RENDER_TARGET | BIND_UNORDERED_ACCESS; TexDesc.Name = "Sample 2D Texture"; m_pRenderDevice->CreateTexture( TexDesc, TextureData(), &m_pTestTex ); Initializing Pipeline State
Diligent Engine follows Direct3D12 style to configure the graphics/compute pipeline. One big Pipelines State Object (PSO) encompasses all required states (all shader stages, input layout description, depth stencil, rasterizer and blend state descriptions etc.)
To create a shader, populate ShaderCreationAttribs structure. An important member is ShaderCreationAttribs::SourceLanguage. The following are valid values for this member:
SHADER_SOURCE_LANGUAGE_DEFAULT  - The shader source format matches the underlying graphics API: HLSL for D3D11 or D3D12 mode, and GLSL for OpenGL and OpenGLES modes. SHADER_SOURCE_LANGUAGE_HLSL  - The shader source is in HLSL. For OpenGL and OpenGLES modes, the source code will be converted to GLSL. See shader converter for details. SHADER_SOURCE_LANGUAGE_GLSL  - The shader source is in GLSL. There is currently no GLSL to HLSL converter. To allow grouping of resources based on the frequency of expected change, Diligent Engine introduces classification of shader variables:
Static variables (SHADER_VARIABLE_TYPE_STATIC) are variables that are expected to be set only once. They may not be changed once a resource is bound to the variable. Such variables are intended to hold global constants such as camera attributes or global light attributes constant buffers. Mutable variables (SHADER_VARIABLE_TYPE_MUTABLE) define resources that are expected to change on a per-material frequency. Examples may include diffuse textures, normal maps etc. Dynamic variables (SHADER_VARIABLE_TYPE_DYNAMIC) are expected to change frequently and randomly. This post describes the resource binding model in Diligent Engine.
The following is an example of shader initialization:
To create a pipeline state object, define instance of PipelineStateDesc structure. The structure defines the pipeline specifics such as if the pipeline is a compute pipeline, number and format of render targets as well as depth-stencil format:
// This is a graphics pipeline PSODesc.IsComputePipeline = false; PSODesc.GraphicsPipeline.NumRenderTargets = 1; PSODesc.GraphicsPipeline.RTVFormats[0] = TEX_FORMAT_RGBA8_UNORM_SRGB; PSODesc.GraphicsPipeline.DSVFormat = TEX_FORMAT_D32_FLOAT; The structure also defines depth-stencil, rasterizer, blend state, input layout and other parameters. For instance, rasterizer state can be defined as in the code snippet below:
// Init rasterizer state RasterizerStateDesc &RasterizerDesc = PSODesc.GraphicsPipeline.RasterizerDesc; RasterizerDesc.FillMode = FILL_MODE_SOLID; RasterizerDesc.CullMode = CULL_MODE_NONE; RasterizerDesc.FrontCounterClockwise = True; RasterizerDesc.ScissorEnable = True; //RSDesc.MultisampleEnable = false; // do not allow msaa (fonts would be degraded) RasterizerDesc.AntialiasedLineEnable = False; When all fields are populated, call IRenderDevice::CreatePipelineState() to create the PSO:
Shader resource binding in Diligent Engine is based on grouping variables in 3 different groups (static, mutable and dynamic). Static variables are variables that are expected to be set only once. They may not be changed once a resource is bound to the variable. Such variables are intended to hold global constants such as camera attributes or global light attributes constant buffers. They are bound directly to the shader object:

m_pPSO->CreateShaderResourceBinding(&m_pSRB); Dynamic and mutable resources are then bound through SRB object:
m_pSRB->GetVariable(SHADER_TYPE_VERTEX, "tex2DDiffuse")->Set(pDiffuseTexSRV); m_pSRB->GetVariable(SHADER_TYPE_VERTEX, "cbRandomAttribs")->Set(pRandomAttrsCB); The difference between mutable and dynamic resources is that mutable ones can only be set once for every instance of a shader resource binding. Dynamic resources can be set multiple times. It is important to properly set the variable type as this may affect performance. Static variables are generally most efficient, followed by mutable. Dynamic variables are most expensive from performance point of view. This post explains shader resource binding in more details.
Setting the Pipeline State and Invoking Draw Command
Before any draw command can be invoked, all required vertex and index buffers as well as the pipeline state should be bound to the device context:
// Clear render target const float zero[4] = {0, 0, 0, 0}; m_pContext->ClearRenderTarget(nullptr, zero); // Set vertex and index buffers IBuffer *buffer[] = {m_pVertexBuffer}; Uint32 offsets[] = {0}; Uint32 strides[] = {sizeof(MyVertex)}; m_pContext->SetVertexBuffers(0, 1, buffer, strides, offsets, SET_VERTEX_BUFFERS_FLAG_RESET); m_pContext->SetIndexBuffer(m_pIndexBuffer, 0); m_pContext->SetPipelineState(m_pPSO); Also, all shader resources must be committed to the device context:
m_pContext->CommitShaderResources(m_pSRB, COMMIT_SHADER_RESOURCES_FLAG_TRANSITION_RESOURCES); When all required states and resources are bound, IDeviceContext::Draw() can be used to execute draw command or IDeviceContext::DispatchCompute() can be used to execute compute command. Note that for a draw command, graphics pipeline must be bound, and for dispatch command, compute pipeline must be bound. Draw() takes DrawAttribs structure as an argument. The structure members define all attributes required to perform the command (primitive topology, number of vertices or indices, if draw call is indexed or not, if draw call is instanced or not, if draw call is indirect or not, etc.). For example:
DrawAttribs attrs; attrs.IsIndexed = true; attrs.IndexType = VT_UINT16; attrs.NumIndices = 36; attrs.Topology = PRIMITIVE_TOPOLOGY_TRIANGLE_LIST; pContext->Draw(attrs); Tutorials and Samples
The GitHub repository contains a number of tutorials and sample applications that demonstrate the API usage.

AntTweakBar sample demonstrates how to use AntTweakBar library to create simple user interface.

Atmospheric scattering sample is a more advanced example. It demonstrates how Diligent Engine can be used to implement various rendering tasks: loading textures from files, using complex shaders, rendering to textures, using compute shaders and unordered access views, etc.

The repository includes Asteroids performance benchmark based on this demo developed by Intel. It renders 50,000 unique textured asteroids and lets compare performance of D3D11 and D3D12 implementations. Every asteroid is a combination of one of 1000 unique meshes and one of 10 unique textures.

Integration with Unity
Diligent Engine supports integration with Unity through Unity low-level native plugin interface. The engine relies on Native API Interoperability to attach to the graphics API initialized by Unity. After Diligent Engine device and context are created, they can be used us usual to create resources and issue rendering commands. GhostCubePlugin shows an example how Diligent Engine can be used to render a ghost cube only visible as a reflection in a mirror.

• By Yxjmir
I'm trying to load data from a .gltf file into a struct to use to load a .bin file. I don't think there is a problem with how the vertex positions are loaded, but with the indices. This is what I get when drawing with glDrawArrays(GL_LINES, ...):

Also, using glDrawElements gives a similar result. Since it looks like its drawing triangles using the wrong vertices for each face, I'm assuming it needs an index buffer/element buffer. (I'm not sure why there is a line going through part of it, it doesn't look like it belongs to a side, re-exported it without texture coordinates checked, and its not there)
I'm using jsoncpp to load the GLTF file, its format is based on JSON. Here is the gltf struct I'm using, and how I parse the file:
glBindVertexArray(g_pGame->m_VAO);
glDrawElements(GL_LINES, g_pGame->m_indices.size(), GL_UNSIGNED_BYTE, (void*)0); // Only shows with GL_UNSIGNED_BYTE
glDrawArrays(GL_LINES, 0, g_pGame->m_vertexCount);
So, I'm asking what type should I use for the indices? it doesn't seem to be unsigned short, which is what I selected with the Khronos Group Exporter for blender. Also, am I reading part or all of the .bin file wrong?
Test.gltf
Test.bin

• That means how do I use base DirectX or OpenGL api's to make a physics based destruction simulation?
Will it be just smart rendering or something else is required?

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## Recommended Posts

DDS questions
I posted this further down, but realized that many might miss it down there, pasted it here instead:

This is an edit of the original post. Instead of creating a totally new thread.

So, I'm "finished" with the VBO problems I had (the code I'm using now is pasted down below).
However, I'm stumped at how complicated it looks when I'm checking out sample code and the MSDN guide (which is focused on Direct3D...).
I'm wondering if maybe anyone here could discuss the process with me? I've used Nehe's now deprecated TGA tutorial before and I think I've understood most of that.

I guess I'm asking for a lot, but it would be very helpful if anyone would like to help me out with this.

I never thought there would be so much to learn when I started this project :)

Original post VBO-stuff
Hi,
This is my first turn trying to understand them. I'm reading the specs and trying out stuff.

At the moment I'm allmost getting the results I want. I just can't figure out why my sphere does this:

The model loads fine with my old "non-VBO" loader and code for displaying the sphere. So something's gone iffy with the VBO's.
If anyone could shed some light on this, I'd be a very happy guy :)

I just can't seem to figure it out on my own.

GLuint VBO_verts = 0;	GLuint VBO_faces = 0;	glGenBuffers(1, &VBO_verts);	glBindBuffer(GL_ARRAY_BUFFER, VBO_verts);	glBufferData(GL_ARRAY_BUFFER, ((int)(model1.vertices.size()) * 4 * sizeof(float)), &(model1.vertices.at(0)), GL_STATIC_DRAW);	glGenBuffers(1, &VBO_faces);	glBindBuffer(GL_ELEMENT_ARRAY_BUFFER, VBO_faces);	glBufferData(GL_ELEMENT_ARRAY_BUFFER, ((int)(model1.faces_v.size()) * 4 * sizeof(float)), &(model1.faces_v.at(0)), GL_STATIC_DRAW);	glBindBuffer(GL_ARRAY_BUFFER, VBO_verts);	glBindBuffer(GL_ELEMENT_ARRAY_BUFFER, VBO_faces);	glEnableClientState(GL_VERTEX_ARRAY);	glVertexPointer(3, GL_FLOAT, 0, 0);	glDrawElements(GL_TRIANGLES, (model1.faces_v.size()), GL_UNSIGNED_INT, 0);	glDisableClientState(GL_VERTEX_ARRAY);

Marcus Axelsson

EDIT
I've also noticed that when I try to load a model with more than 20000 face references my program crashes. Which I really don't want.
And when I load my VBO-indices ("f" from the obj-file) should I load those face values that reference the same vertex?

f 544/544/544 551/551/551 552/552/552f 544/544/544 552/552/552 545/545/545f 545/545/545 552/552/552 553/553/553f 545/545/545 553/553/553 546/546/546f 546/546/546 553/553/553 554/554/554f 546/546/546 554/554/554 547/547/547

That's a few of my f-references. The numbers before the first slash is a vertex reference. Here you wan see that 544 is referenced twice, 552 twice, 553 four times and so on.
But if I don't reference those numbers, how do I build my globe model later? Vertices must be shared between the faces, right? If not I would get gaps?
Normals are shared because of how they are angled and thus handle light, one vertex in the middle of three polygons would give three normals, either pointing in the same direction or not.
The vertex between the polygons, say "V5" is shared between the polygons. However it's not repeated. There's not three vertices at the same spot.

Have I got this wrong?

[Edited by - tre on July 28, 2010 10:06:19 AM]

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f 544/544/544 551/551/551 552/552/552

f 544/544/544 552/552/552 545/545/545

f 545/545/545 552/552/552 553/553/553

f 545/545/545 553/553/553 546/546/546

f 546/546/546 553/553/553 554/554/554

f 546/546/546 554/554/554 547/547/547

I will say that sometimes values per triangle parts can be different like this:
f 546/121/322 313/543/513 524/567/514
the technique that you using is:
f vertex-index/normal-index/texcoord-index
Any vertex,normal,texcoord can be mapped for >1 meshes...

What about " load a model with more than 20000 face references my program crashes"...

I'm sure that you are using a pointer that resizes each 'v','n','t' call.
Try to use array block like:
vec3 *vertices = (vec3*)malloc(sizeof(vec3)*10000);//for example
When it's out of range resize it by the step:
current_size += 10000; //for example

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Quote:
 Original post by FXACEWhat about " load a model with more than 20000 face references my program crashes"...I'm sure that you are using a pointer that resizes each 'v','n','t' call.Try to use array block like: vec3 *vertices = (vec3*)malloc(sizeof(vec3)*10000);//for exampleWhen it's out of range resize it by the step: current_size += 10000; //for example

The way that I'm loading my model is that I'm pushing all the vertices into a vector called "vertices" and all face references (vertex) goes into another vector (faces_v) and the same with the face references to texture coordinates and normals (faces_t, faces_n).
I am not reserving space for any certain amount of vertices or references since I can't know for sure how many references I will need until the model is read. Instead of reading the obj twice I'm using vectors to dynamically store my vertices.

Wrong way?

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I got this result before when i was trying to load it. Solution was to decrease triangle index by one during loading:

triangle.index[0] -= 1;triangle.index[1] -= 1;triangle.index[2] -= 1;

And why are you multiplying the faces by 4. You are using triangles, so they should be multiplied by 3.

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tre! I'm recommend you this way because I had the same problem. Using that way the problem was solved...

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I will take a closer look on my model loader later and keep loading my low poly globe just to get the VBO part working.

I can't seem to wrap my head around it, though.

I want to use a vertex list (array) that's been gathered from a 3D object (COLLADA/OBJ) and then load a reference list (faces).
Now I'm kind of stuck, I can't find any explanation to VBO's that I can understand. Sure, a lot of code, but I can't seem to get a real grip on this concept.
If you guys have any tutorials or plain information, please let me know.

As I've understood it:
1. Create two buffer objects. One for vertices and one for faces.
2. Allocate memory and assign the arrays to them.
3. Draw them with glDrawElements() and use the "faces VBO" for that.

Still can't get it to work correctly.

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This is still not working as it should.
I am however starting to get somewhere.

I am using a "custom" obj-file that I wrote up.
v  1.0 1.0 0.0v  -1.0 1.0 0.0v  -1.0 -1.0 0.0v  1.0 -1.0 0.0# 4 verticesf 1 2 3f 3 4 1# 2 faces

So, I'm loading the v (vertices) to myModel.vertices, and the f (faces) to myModel.faces.
Then I do this:
unsigned int vertex_buf = 0;unsigned int index_buf = 0;glGenBuffers(1, &vertex_buf);glBindBuffer(GL_ARRAY_BUFFER, vertex_buf);glBufferData(GL_ARRAY_BUFFER, myModel.vertices.size() * 3 * sizeof(float), &(myModel.vertices.at(0)), GL_STATIC_DRAW);glGenBuffers(1, &index_buf);glBindBuffer(GL_ELEMENT_ARRAY_BUFFER, index_buf);glBufferData(GL_ELEMENT_ARRAY_BUFFER, 3 * sizeof(GLushort), &(myModel.faces_v.at(0)), GL_STATIC_DRAW);glEnableClientState(GL_VERTEX_ARRAY);	glBindBuffer(GL_ARRAY_BUFFER, vertex_buf);	glVertexPointer(3, GL_FLOAT, 0, 0);	glBindBuffer(GL_ELEMENT_ARRAY_BUFFER, index_buf);	glDrawElements(GL_TRIANGLES, 3, GL_UNSIGNED_SHORT, 0);	glBindBuffer(GL_ARRAY_BUFFER, 0);	glBindBuffer(GL_ELEMENT_ARRAY_BUFFER, 0);glDisableClientState(GL_VERTEX_ARRAY);

I get nothing on screen. If I change the
glDrawElements(GL_TRIANGLES...)
to
GL_POINTS
I get a single point that is rotating the way the square should've.

I'm not understanding what I'm doing wrong here. Anyone care to correct me?

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As Kasya already mentioned, you should ensure to decrease the indicies by one when loading. In c++ and opengl the first index is always 0 whereas in .obj files the indicies start with 1. When you don't decrease the index you will most probably render an undefined last triangle and a missing first triangle (as you can see in your circle example).

Quote:
 glDrawElements(GL_TRIANGLES, 3, GL_UNSIGNED_SHORT, 0);

Here's an other bug, you are trying to render 3 triangles, but you load only two.

Quote:
 v 1.0 1.0 0.0v -1.0 1.0 0.0v -1.0 -1.0 0.0v 1.0 -1.0 0.0# 4 verticesf 1 2 3f 3 4 1# 2 faces

Ensure that you have the correct order of indices (clock or counter-clock wise), else the triangles will be culled if you didn't have turned off culling.

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the 2nd argument of glDrawElements is number of indices not number of triangles. You should put there:

glDrawElements(GL_TRIANGLES, 6 /* num_of_tris * 3 */, GL_UNSIGNED_INT, 0);

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Thank you so much for your answers. Now I'm beginning to understand the calls.
I've had a huge problem understanding what the different parts of the (for example) glDrawElements, do. And I couldn't seem to understand the description of the functions either.
Now I'm beginning to.

Kasya, I owe you an apology. I didn't understand your post at first and instead of asking I somehow managed to forget it.

Quote:
 Ensure that you have the correct order of indices (clock or counter-clock wise), else the triangles will be culled if you didn't have turned off culling.

Thats one thing I've allready done, at least :)

And I've actually read posts before that explained the 1-0 OBJ index stuff, but I didn't even think that far. Heh.

I'm at work right now but I'll try these suggestions as soon as I get home. Thank you again. I love these boards, I actually get answers here :)