Huge world and cities
Why do people always want to start huge? I think the reason you are not getting a straight answer for your question is because your question shows that you are thinking way too far ahead.
Quote:Original post by jpetrieQuote:
Dudes, I really don't ask you about my chances of finishing this project, but about an IDEA. This is reason of this forum, doesn't it?
A forum is for discussion; you don't own this thread so you don't have any business dictating what is and is not appropriate discussion for it. So far none of this discussion is inappropriate according to our site rules.
Please keep the discussion civil, people.
So this forum allows offtopics and other sucking things? Cool, I will start spamming about weather in every topic. Maybe even using bot!
I can see no future with staying on this forum; when I read other topics regarding similar subjects, people does not start spamming about "you can't do this".
"Don't tell me what I cannot do", as one of best TV-series character frequently repeated. And don't tell me, that I am not able to say what is inappropriate subject of MY TOPIC! MINE, you know what does it mean?
Quote:Why do people always want to start huge? I think the reason you are not getting a straight answer for your question is because your question shows that you are thinking way too far ahead.Geez, only idiots around me. It's my time, my project and my work. Not yours. I understand that one person tells me "you won't do this", by why everyone starts to increase their postcount saying "you shouldn't even try"?
[Edited by - Griwes on August 6, 2010 2:07:37 PM]
Blah blah blah, team of professionals, life's goal, slow and steady wins the race, $millions development budget, blah.
Okeydoke, I think that's the last word on that. So now let's move on from paragraph 2 and discuss the rest of the original post, rather than having the newbie MMO discussion yet again.
Okeydoke, I think that's the last word on that. So now let's move on from paragraph 2 and discuss the rest of the original post, rather than having the newbie MMO discussion yet again.
As for your question, I have always found that one of the primary functions of large cities in online games is to provide a central hub for socializing/trading/party-searching/crafting/repairing/training/etc. The feeling you tend to get is that of being 'home.'
I'm not sure how well you could achieve that general feeling if the city experience was less immersive than when you were adventuring in the open world area.
I'm not sure how well you could achieve that general feeling if the city experience was less immersive than when you were adventuring in the open world area.
1. Re: The immersiveness factor
A trick to make a 2D map seems bigger is to show only a radius about the character. In a normal 3D environment, the player can only see so far within in a city. The concept is to retain the same limitation for a 2D environment. To highlight the sense of crowdedness, the the screen area showing the character and the surrounding could take only a fraction of the window area. The rest of the screen can be used for displaying status, news, chat, and the map where the player may click to move the character. On the map, only the most important locations are marked. Small stores and alleys are not marked, but the player can see them when the character walks pass them under auto-pilot.
Example:
Suppose the game window is 800x600, and the character is going from A to B via the subway under auto-pilot. Within the window, there is a 300x200 window showing the character and the immediate surrounding. The rest of the window contains chats, inventory, news, and the map. When the character enters the subway, the 300x200 area has the width to show about 7 characters because the subway is crowded (concept: The more crowded the environment, the less the area show). In addition, because there are advertisement in the subway, the player can see in-game advertisement and news in the rest of the screen area outside the 300x200 portion (While the character is commuting, the player can read the news about deals, quests, and areas of the city and surrounding areas.)
2. The memorableness factor
The reason to use the map is to reduce the effort to create the cities. However, you still need some sort of theme and unique combination for each city to make each one identifiable (or potential homely). What can you vary to give each city its own identity?
If the city has a 2D rendition:
o City Name
o Weather
o Building style
o Color scheme
o Vegetation
o Demographic
o Local celebrity, mascot, symbol
o Local events
o Local fashion, style
o Local landmarks
If the city only has a black and white 2D map
o City Name
o Layout (showing streets, bridges, rivers, districts)
o Location of buildings
o Types of buildings
o Available items in stores
o Special buildings (i.e. amusement park, stadium)
I think among these ideas the most effective one is having a special building that epitomizes the culture of the city. So instead of designing many varying graphical styles, you would design only B/W icons of special buildings and place a special building on the map. For example, if for a city, history is very important, then on its map you would specifically show the icon of a museum. It is not to say that other cities don't have museums, but for this city it is special. If I can use one more color, perhaps the icon for the signature building would have a golden border.
A trick to make a 2D map seems bigger is to show only a radius about the character. In a normal 3D environment, the player can only see so far within in a city. The concept is to retain the same limitation for a 2D environment. To highlight the sense of crowdedness, the the screen area showing the character and the surrounding could take only a fraction of the window area. The rest of the screen can be used for displaying status, news, chat, and the map where the player may click to move the character. On the map, only the most important locations are marked. Small stores and alleys are not marked, but the player can see them when the character walks pass them under auto-pilot.
Example:
Suppose the game window is 800x600, and the character is going from A to B via the subway under auto-pilot. Within the window, there is a 300x200 window showing the character and the immediate surrounding. The rest of the window contains chats, inventory, news, and the map. When the character enters the subway, the 300x200 area has the width to show about 7 characters because the subway is crowded (concept: The more crowded the environment, the less the area show). In addition, because there are advertisement in the subway, the player can see in-game advertisement and news in the rest of the screen area outside the 300x200 portion (While the character is commuting, the player can read the news about deals, quests, and areas of the city and surrounding areas.)
2. The memorableness factor
The reason to use the map is to reduce the effort to create the cities. However, you still need some sort of theme and unique combination for each city to make each one identifiable (or potential homely). What can you vary to give each city its own identity?
If the city has a 2D rendition:
o City Name
o Weather
o Building style
o Color scheme
o Vegetation
o Demographic
o Local celebrity, mascot, symbol
o Local events
o Local fashion, style
o Local landmarks
If the city only has a black and white 2D map
o City Name
o Layout (showing streets, bridges, rivers, districts)
o Location of buildings
o Types of buildings
o Available items in stores
o Special buildings (i.e. amusement park, stadium)
I think among these ideas the most effective one is having a special building that epitomizes the culture of the city. So instead of designing many varying graphical styles, you would design only B/W icons of special buildings and place a special building on the map. For example, if for a city, history is very important, then on its map you would specifically show the icon of a museum. It is not to say that other cities don't have museums, but for this city it is special. If I can use one more color, perhaps the icon for the signature building would have a golden border.
[ No, we're done beating that particular dead horse in this particular thread. --Sneftel ]
[Edited by - Sneftel on August 7, 2010 7:03:14 PM]
[Edited by - Sneftel on August 7, 2010 7:03:14 PM]
Implementing your map idea would probably make things easier sure, but it would really kill the immersion as others have stated -unless the entire world is map driven in a similar fashion-. Even if you allow simple navigation of cities via a map, it would still be a bit illogical to prevent users from exploring cities. However, I have a few other suggestions that should help with your minimalist pipeline.
First off, there is nothing wrong with building cities out of stock objects and/or procedural generation. Instead of modeling 100,000 people -which would be atrocious from the sheer file size alone- you could simply create a few animated human models or sprites, and simply reuse them for all the people. In order to provide some differentiation you can piece them together (for instance piecing together models or sprites with different hairstyles). non-interactive sprites/models can also exist in the background area, and can run client-side as to ease server strain (since you don't actually interact with them).
Next, since you were actually willing to cut out the cities altogether by favoring a map option, you should have no gripes with making much of the city "unexplorable". This will accomplish many things. The citys can look HUGE, but the real human players can easily find each other since only a portion of the city can be explored. The "background" of the city can be filled with less detailed models/sprites, and background objects, all of which exist only on the client (less server load).
The majority of the work in an MMORPG (that cannot be accomplished with middleware) has to deal with the extent of the art pipeline. So you need to be creative when it comes to how your art is produced. this means reusing stock objects as much as possible, and implementing forms of procedural generation where applicable.
Just my 2c.
First off, there is nothing wrong with building cities out of stock objects and/or procedural generation. Instead of modeling 100,000 people -which would be atrocious from the sheer file size alone- you could simply create a few animated human models or sprites, and simply reuse them for all the people. In order to provide some differentiation you can piece them together (for instance piecing together models or sprites with different hairstyles). non-interactive sprites/models can also exist in the background area, and can run client-side as to ease server strain (since you don't actually interact with them).
Next, since you were actually willing to cut out the cities altogether by favoring a map option, you should have no gripes with making much of the city "unexplorable". This will accomplish many things. The citys can look HUGE, but the real human players can easily find each other since only a portion of the city can be explored. The "background" of the city can be filled with less detailed models/sprites, and background objects, all of which exist only on the client (less server load).
The majority of the work in an MMORPG (that cannot be accomplished with middleware) has to deal with the extent of the art pipeline. So you need to be creative when it comes to how your art is produced. this means reusing stock objects as much as possible, and implementing forms of procedural generation where applicable.
Just my 2c.
That's not a good idea, as alot of "events" are supposed to be happened inside cities. Say grouping and interplayer trading.
I think that a big world design might cause some network issues as players crowds are difficult to predict for resources allocation. Your net codes must be smart enough to deal with the tons of players who might suddenly appear in an unexpected location.
I don't know but I think you may have to bury some memory loading spots such that a memory load will occur during region swtiching such that the traffic can be handled more smoothly. A true seemless world is difficult to tackle with AFAIK. I could be outdated about the technology though.
I think that a big world design might cause some network issues as players crowds are difficult to predict for resources allocation. Your net codes must be smart enough to deal with the tons of players who might suddenly appear in an unexpected location.
I don't know but I think you may have to bury some memory loading spots such that a memory load will occur during region swtiching such that the traffic can be handled more smoothly. A true seemless world is difficult to tackle with AFAIK. I could be outdated about the technology though.
Sorry sneftel. I just read the top and posted at the bottom without reading your call to end the boredom in the middle.
If you're in a moderting mood though, can't you just delete this entire thread and then ban the word MMO from being typeable?
If you're in a moderting mood though, can't you just delete this entire thread and then ban the word MMO from being typeable?
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