I've spent the last two weeks prototyping what I thought would be a great idea. The game functions, it can be played, but I wouldn't want to. The design is lacking the spark. It's just not fun. I think there's something fun somewhere in the original idea, I've only got to find it.
The game is a reverse shmup. Instead of playing as a single hero ship taking on a horde of enemies and a bunch of over-powered mega-sized bosses, you ARE the over-powered mega-sized boss. Heroes come at you alone or in groups, and you fire off waves of bullets and underlings for them to dodge and shoot. The object of the game is to destroy the heroes, of course. This is the idea that I still think has some merit.
In implementing it, I created a spawn timer and cost system meant to slow the rate at the player can spawn underlings. The player would earn coins for destroying the heroes, and be able to spend them to upgrade vital stats of their boss-ship, such as how fast it recharges the 'power' spent to spawn underlings, and how large it's max power reserve was.
The problem is that the game oscillates between way too hard and way too easy. The winning tactic is too simple : Spawn underlings faster than the player can shoot them and overwhelm them. Tweak the spawn rates so that this becomes available, and that's what the player does. Tweak the spawn rates so it's not available, and the player can't win at all. If the heroes can destroy ships faster than the player can make them, the player will always lose. And the other way around, the player can always win just by holding down the spawn button.
So what can I do to break out of this rut and create some gameplay that is actually interesting? I've thought of a few things.
Powerups which the heroes seek, and the player has to protect. These can temporarily break the stagnation described above, by shifting the combat to a different area on the field. Depending on the nature of the powerup, it could reverse the balance when the hero picks it up, and allow them to destroy underlings faster than the player can spawn them. But, the same issue as before occurs. If the player can spawn underlings faster than the hero can destroy them, the powerup is never in any danger. Vice versa, the hero will always eventually get it.
Shield units. These are slow moving underlings that take a lot of hits. They would be fairly expensive themselves, but they would also give the player a chance to sit safe behind them and charge up their 'underling spawn power' for a big rush. If the game is balanced such that in normal conditions the player always loses, this chance to 'charge up' with impunity may allow them to temporarily reverse the balance and destroy a few heroes.
Perfect balance always. Carefully tune underling spawn rates and hero firing rates so that, if the player just holds down the spawn button, they won't lose; but they won't ever win either. This would force the player to try to outsmart the AI, rather than just slug it to death with brute force. Except that I don't know how the player would actually do that.
Any ideas?
My game has no 'spark'.
Chess springs to mind - think about how you might thwart your opponent's attack (and possibly counter attack) in chess... Make moves that attack two pieces at once, lure the heroes into where you want them, sacrifice pieces for the greater good, try to control the centre...
I think the gameplay is too simple.
It is like an RTS where all the player has to do is spawn units, and everything else will be done for him.
There should be a lot of ways to control your units, otherwise it is just click and spam and the player will be bored in 5 sec.
The player should be able to come up with strategies to take the enemy (hero) down.
A wide variety in units (and heroes) with their own special abilities should help with that.
Maybe you could allow the player to draw a flypath for the units hes sending.
Or you could even control them similar to an RTS.
The powerup idea is also pretty good. Having some small ships flying around that drop powerups when they die and you can, but you don't have to, protect them.
The game is all about strategy when you control an army of units.
In order to make games like that interesting the player needs to be able to make a lot of choices and use different strategies.
The player needs an army that does what he tells them to and not just fly off and do things on it's own.
It is like an RTS where all the player has to do is spawn units, and everything else will be done for him.
There should be a lot of ways to control your units, otherwise it is just click and spam and the player will be bored in 5 sec.
The player should be able to come up with strategies to take the enemy (hero) down.
A wide variety in units (and heroes) with their own special abilities should help with that.
Maybe you could allow the player to draw a flypath for the units hes sending.
Or you could even control them similar to an RTS.
The powerup idea is also pretty good. Having some small ships flying around that drop powerups when they die and you can, but you don't have to, protect them.
The game is all about strategy when you control an army of units.
In order to make games like that interesting the player needs to be able to make a lot of choices and use different strategies.
The player needs an army that does what he tells them to and not just fly off and do things on it's own.
Does your mega-boss have super weapons? A tech tree of super power weapons and defensive stuff would add a lot as well.
Can you block enemy projectiles with your own projectiles? That adds strategy to weapon choice, even for your units.
Can you block enemy projectiles with your own projectiles? That adds strategy to weapon choice, even for your units.
A story line always helps with back story? Something that makes you connect with what you are doing and why you are doing it?
Failing that I would mix it up a bit, use things that are often used in such RTS games like turrets, healing units, stealth units, etc. Something tech-tree would be good.
I think you should consider making it so these heroes of yours have to come into your "land" so the player should be able to design the land and put nests (for AI underlings), turrets, rocks in where he/she wants while keeping to a budget (earn money by killing off heroes and other tasks)
PM me I like the idea and would like to learn more.
Failing that I would mix it up a bit, use things that are often used in such RTS games like turrets, healing units, stealth units, etc. Something tech-tree would be good.
I think you should consider making it so these heroes of yours have to come into your "land" so the player should be able to design the land and put nests (for AI underlings), turrets, rocks in where he/she wants while keeping to a budget (earn money by killing off heroes and other tasks)
PM me I like the idea and would like to learn more.
Have you thought that perhaps the interface is wrong? As an action game where you play the overpowering behemoth with human intelligence and real-time skills its going to be difficult to make this sort of game beatable without being cheap, or losable while not being ridiculous. Maybe the concept is fun, but the current way of playing doesn't lend itself to a rewarding and enjoyable experience.
You seem to have described a situation where you have units to spawn, and heroes have bullets to shoot them with. If there is nothing else then of course its boring. Doesn't the boss have weapons? Just aiming and shooting at the heroes should add a lot of fun. Don't you have choices in units to spawn? Weapons to use? Some variety in heroes to make the choices against?
The idea of a tech tree for the boss (and I'll add, the spawns as well) would make it much more interesting.
Units can even be customized. Weapons, shields, selected AI script, etc.
The idea of a tech tree for the boss (and I'll add, the spawns as well) would make it much more interesting.
Units can even be customized. Weapons, shields, selected AI script, etc.
Author
You've nailed the problem, Ravyne. I should be able to fill the screen with bullets and enemies, but I can't, because I'm not capable of writing AI that could survive in the time budget for this project.
That's another problem. I don't want the project to get too big, so I'd like to stay away from a big complex tech tree. That doesn't mean a tech tree is out, just that it has to be small in scope.
Ravyne, do you have any ideas of how else I could capture the experience of being the mega-boss?
[edit]I've got some ideas from all of you. I'll go do some simple things (For now, I'll pretend the player has the tech tree maxed out, and just implement whatever interesting things I can think of) and see what happens.[/edit]
[Edited by - Deyja on August 18, 2010 5:28:58 PM]
That's another problem. I don't want the project to get too big, so I'd like to stay away from a big complex tech tree. That doesn't mean a tech tree is out, just that it has to be small in scope.
Ravyne, do you have any ideas of how else I could capture the experience of being the mega-boss?
[edit]I've got some ideas from all of you. I'll go do some simple things (For now, I'll pretend the player has the tech tree maxed out, and just implement whatever interesting things I can think of) and see what happens.[/edit]
[Edited by - Deyja on August 18, 2010 5:28:58 PM]
I think the general idea is awesome, but what kinda stuck out in your description of what you have is "holding down the spawn button". So basically, the only *real* choice (besides upgrading), is how you time your spawns? Or did you just not mention the rest, say, vertical placement?
How predictable are the heroes? How much delay is there between spawning enemies and them actually showing up? I say this because it might be nice to queue up spawns (you click, a marker blinks there, and 3 seconds later the enemies spawn, that sort of thing), and also to not just spawn individual enemies but several of them, moving in a line, in a sine pattern, etc. so you spawn a row up top and then a sine wave below, hoping the hero will avoid the first wave and run into the second. Ahh, it's hard to describe but hopefully you see what I'm trying to get at. Don't just make it about raw firepower, make it about reflexes and strategy, too.
I kinda disagree with the poster above that it's like an RTS, and vehemently with the post comparing it to chess (well, unless we can agree on blitz chess, that I can see ^^): If your enemy is an action hero you kind of have to be one, too. Sure, you don't steer and aim, but you still have to think fast, recognize and use opportunities quickly. Otherwise there is a huge disconnect. Maybe that's your confusion, that it ultimately still is an arcade game, not a strategy game? Maybe there is too little action involved?
Besides placement and timing, the boss could be controlled more directly by the player, say, it shoots by itself, but the player has to dodge the hero bullets. Might be fun, and there could be a mini boss during the stage just to give that more room. Also, during that time spawning could be controlled by something else, say, spawn enemies at a basic rate, but more when you get hit, and less when the player gets hit.
What do the enemies do? Just shoot? They could lay mine fields, ram the hero, thousand other things.
About spawning, how does this work? What I'd try is that with time your "energy pool" fills up (slow at first, faster each level), and also by doing things that earn you credits etc. Now, the more energy in your pool, the bigger the enemies you can spawn, with a cap depending on the current stage. This allows you to decide wether to spawn the small enemies as soon as they become available, or wait longer for bigger ones (which tend to stay around longer, medium and big enemies in shmups don't just blaze by and do a lot of damage, they're stubborn). This is similar to making your shot stronger by keeping the fire button pressed... which, by the way, might be nice capability for the hero ship? In addition to that, spawning a wave of X could cheaper than spawning X enemies individually.
Now, for this to not be utterly boring there would have to be a bunch of lowly, automatically spawned enemies. Do you know the game Left 4 Dead? The common infected are always around, but the AI director, and the infected team in versus, weave them into what they're doing. Something like that, drones. Otherwise the hero would just fly through empty space while you are saving your credits to spawn a bunch of bigger enemies.
What about "inside" section? You know, walls at the top and the bottom? There you can also place turrets, while maybe not being able to spawn certain "outer space" enemies. This might force/allow for a change of strategy, and a bit of changing scenery can't hurt either.
And yeah, the player definately needs powerups. Not all have to be huge and game changing, just a "repair 10% damage" for example would begin to mix stuff up. A few seconds of invulnerability, 10 seconds of taking less damage or doing more damage, that sort of thing. The game could spawn more of those when the hero is struggling, which forces you to pay more attention to defending (destroying?) them etc. Maybe the player should get a notice ahead of time when a powerup is about to spawn, so they can time the "ambush" to deny it,assuming the powerups pass by fast, and that the hero is good at catching them. But slower powerups and a hero who tends to stay in the left half of the screen might be more fun.
Oh, there might also be a risk involved with spawning enemies. Let's say, the more of a "rebate" a wave of X enemies gets you, in absolute credits (if a wave of 3 gives you 10% off, the more expensive the type of ship is, the more credits you save), the higher the chance it leaves a powerup behind. That could be tuned for example so that a wave of 10 of cheapest enemies always spawns a powerup (if completely destroyed), while just 2 or 3 of the best enemies you are allowed to spawn in waves, also have a 100% chance of a powerup (the logic being that even just one of them is hard to destroy).
But tweaking is *hard*, and it takes time. Don't get too hung up on it now. First, create more elements and make them tweakable as much as makes sense, then put all the constants in one file and play around. Then go back to adding more elements or changing them, not minding balance too much since that will be tweaked later. Trying to get a game that is balanced, then adding elements while *keeping* it balanced seems hard if not impossible to me, especially with something as experimental as this.
But it's a wonderful idea, so by no means give up!
How predictable are the heroes? How much delay is there between spawning enemies and them actually showing up? I say this because it might be nice to queue up spawns (you click, a marker blinks there, and 3 seconds later the enemies spawn, that sort of thing), and also to not just spawn individual enemies but several of them, moving in a line, in a sine pattern, etc. so you spawn a row up top and then a sine wave below, hoping the hero will avoid the first wave and run into the second. Ahh, it's hard to describe but hopefully you see what I'm trying to get at. Don't just make it about raw firepower, make it about reflexes and strategy, too.
I kinda disagree with the poster above that it's like an RTS, and vehemently with the post comparing it to chess (well, unless we can agree on blitz chess, that I can see ^^): If your enemy is an action hero you kind of have to be one, too. Sure, you don't steer and aim, but you still have to think fast, recognize and use opportunities quickly. Otherwise there is a huge disconnect. Maybe that's your confusion, that it ultimately still is an arcade game, not a strategy game? Maybe there is too little action involved?
Besides placement and timing, the boss could be controlled more directly by the player, say, it shoots by itself, but the player has to dodge the hero bullets. Might be fun, and there could be a mini boss during the stage just to give that more room. Also, during that time spawning could be controlled by something else, say, spawn enemies at a basic rate, but more when you get hit, and less when the player gets hit.
What do the enemies do? Just shoot? They could lay mine fields, ram the hero, thousand other things.
About spawning, how does this work? What I'd try is that with time your "energy pool" fills up (slow at first, faster each level), and also by doing things that earn you credits etc. Now, the more energy in your pool, the bigger the enemies you can spawn, with a cap depending on the current stage. This allows you to decide wether to spawn the small enemies as soon as they become available, or wait longer for bigger ones (which tend to stay around longer, medium and big enemies in shmups don't just blaze by and do a lot of damage, they're stubborn). This is similar to making your shot stronger by keeping the fire button pressed... which, by the way, might be nice capability for the hero ship? In addition to that, spawning a wave of X could cheaper than spawning X enemies individually.
Now, for this to not be utterly boring there would have to be a bunch of lowly, automatically spawned enemies. Do you know the game Left 4 Dead? The common infected are always around, but the AI director, and the infected team in versus, weave them into what they're doing. Something like that, drones. Otherwise the hero would just fly through empty space while you are saving your credits to spawn a bunch of bigger enemies.
What about "inside" section? You know, walls at the top and the bottom? There you can also place turrets, while maybe not being able to spawn certain "outer space" enemies. This might force/allow for a change of strategy, and a bit of changing scenery can't hurt either.
And yeah, the player definately needs powerups. Not all have to be huge and game changing, just a "repair 10% damage" for example would begin to mix stuff up. A few seconds of invulnerability, 10 seconds of taking less damage or doing more damage, that sort of thing. The game could spawn more of those when the hero is struggling, which forces you to pay more attention to defending (destroying?) them etc. Maybe the player should get a notice ahead of time when a powerup is about to spawn, so they can time the "ambush" to deny it,assuming the powerups pass by fast, and that the hero is good at catching them. But slower powerups and a hero who tends to stay in the left half of the screen might be more fun.
Oh, there might also be a risk involved with spawning enemies. Let's say, the more of a "rebate" a wave of X enemies gets you, in absolute credits (if a wave of 3 gives you 10% off, the more expensive the type of ship is, the more credits you save), the higher the chance it leaves a powerup behind. That could be tuned for example so that a wave of 10 of cheapest enemies always spawns a powerup (if completely destroyed), while just 2 or 3 of the best enemies you are allowed to spawn in waves, also have a 100% chance of a powerup (the logic being that even just one of them is hard to destroy).
But tweaking is *hard*, and it takes time. Don't get too hung up on it now. First, create more elements and make them tweakable as much as makes sense, then put all the constants in one file and play around. Then go back to adding more elements or changing them, not minding balance too much since that will be tweaked later. Trying to get a game that is balanced, then adding elements while *keeping* it balanced seems hard if not impossible to me, especially with something as experimental as this.
But it's a wonderful idea, so by no means give up!
this game concept reminds me a lot of Space Invaders and other arcade games. Those had simple gameplay and dealt with the too hard/easy issue by starting off easy and getting harder. Perhaps you are initially invaded by parties of 1st level heroes and the occasional mid level hero. Eventually large parties of high level heroes arrive and kill off even the best players. As you kill heroes they drop loot which you cannot take or move. So instead you need to protect it with lurking monsters to keep the heroes from grabbing it. Every now and then you get a powerup - a spell that allows you to turn a hero into a traitor. The traitor can sweep up the fallen loot and take off leaving his buddies to die. I would make sure to use the ol' arcade difficulty level trick: enemies become faster and more numerous. Make this into an intense action game.
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