How about making population an abstract concept to the game since you want land/buildings to be the main focus of the game?
There will always be enough population to operate all buildings/land in the country, but their efficiency is affected by how you build your infrastructure.
1) Introduce entertainment buildings that boost your overall population efficiency. Let's say you have 10% worth of entertainment buildings you boost your population's efficiency by 20%, or the ratio of factories to entertainment buildings is 10:1 you get 100% while 20:1 you get 80%.
2) Random events (e.g. famine) will affect the efficiency.
3) Player actions (e.g. Country policies or technology) will also affect population efficiency.
Population, buildings and land
There seems to be an issue about Hegemony.
I've tried to google it and I think I may just know what has happened:
a registered company has copyrighted the name for an altogether different game. Thus, I suppose the initial creator/project owner was contacted and had to change the name of the game.
I'll let you know if I come in touch with a copy of that game and host it on my server, although I suppose this is unlikely to happen as of now.
The game dealth with minimalist visual representation of the actual land you commanded (using layer in layer subdivision).
It had a lot of the concepts you had in mind, but its theme was rather medieval (thus it used churches, etc).
Anyway, looking at your prototype, I see a lot of ressources, and a lot of buildings, and I'm not tempted to play (which is weird, since I actually love serious and complicated games). Of course, its just a prototype, but, as you stated, it could do with being simplified.
The thing is I don't believe you will simplify the game by making every resource system overly independant. I suggest going for an holistic whole. You want fewer vectors the plan can act upon, but more intrinsect relationships.
The idea of land and population needs to be somewhat loosely related (not to the point where population is irrelevant if you have land or vice versa, as previously underlined).
If you go with 'regulars' in your army, this plays on your vector of population independantly, which may lead to shortages, whereas the idea of auto-drafting for the war, albeit more realistic, plays against your game microcosm and fun factor. There is no decision making on the player's part if an army is auto-drafted every time he needs it. In other words, he doesn't need to ever worry about his or her army size, and that, takes the choice away from him or her. Games are about choices, not trying to making it historically accurate ;)
Likewise, I believe your population should affect production in one way or another, and nut by simply bringing standalone taxes. Once again, this is not for the sake of realism, but it is so that if your population lacks land, or your land lacks population, your economy is screwed up. If you made a wrong decision (turn all your population to soldiers to survive an attack) you need to face the consequences (no employees in the country, thus, no production).
I've tried to google it and I think I may just know what has happened:
a registered company has copyrighted the name for an altogether different game. Thus, I suppose the initial creator/project owner was contacted and had to change the name of the game.
I'll let you know if I come in touch with a copy of that game and host it on my server, although I suppose this is unlikely to happen as of now.
The game dealth with minimalist visual representation of the actual land you commanded (using layer in layer subdivision).
It had a lot of the concepts you had in mind, but its theme was rather medieval (thus it used churches, etc).
Anyway, looking at your prototype, I see a lot of ressources, and a lot of buildings, and I'm not tempted to play (which is weird, since I actually love serious and complicated games). Of course, its just a prototype, but, as you stated, it could do with being simplified.
The thing is I don't believe you will simplify the game by making every resource system overly independant. I suggest going for an holistic whole. You want fewer vectors the plan can act upon, but more intrinsect relationships.
The idea of land and population needs to be somewhat loosely related (not to the point where population is irrelevant if you have land or vice versa, as previously underlined).
If you go with 'regulars' in your army, this plays on your vector of population independantly, which may lead to shortages, whereas the idea of auto-drafting for the war, albeit more realistic, plays against your game microcosm and fun factor. There is no decision making on the player's part if an army is auto-drafted every time he needs it. In other words, he doesn't need to ever worry about his or her army size, and that, takes the choice away from him or her. Games are about choices, not trying to making it historically accurate ;)
Likewise, I believe your population should affect production in one way or another, and nut by simply bringing standalone taxes. Once again, this is not for the sake of realism, but it is so that if your population lacks land, or your land lacks population, your economy is screwed up. If you made a wrong decision (turn all your population to soldiers to survive an attack) you need to face the consequences (no employees in the country, thus, no production).
Author
Actually, I don't need population for anything. But... when you say "population" an image of "peoples" pops up in player's mind, he instantly knows he need food and that there will be some slider somewhere with tax amount and if you select too much tax people will be unhappy and will rebel but if you build some recreation building they will be happy so you can tax them more... All this without me explaining anything :)
I simply can not miss that opportunity :D
That's why population can not be abstract, there must be some actual number so player can see it and get happy when it grows.
Maybe simply make population per land density and if you have a high population (workers) density you get some global bonus to production?
I simply can not miss that opportunity :D
That's why population can not be abstract, there must be some actual number so player can see it and get happy when it grows.
Maybe simply make population per land density and if you have a high population (workers) density you get some global bonus to production?
Quote:Games are about choices, not trying to making it historically accurateWell... I know, but I wanted to make this game a bit more accurate historically. I mean, a theme like industrial revolution won't appeal to a typical casual player anyway, no matter how much I would simplify it. Althrough, I wouldn't want to go too far so only the most hardcore manics are able to play it... Sigh... :)
I think you are making a wrong assumption here.
You can pretty much sell any theme to a casual player, depending on how you present it.
The reason is not that industrial revolution cannot be sold to the casual players; it is that you are unwilling to make a non-serious game, aka, are willing to take the serious turn around the industrial revolution theme and want to make the game for the hardcore gamers of the serious game type.
Nothing wrong with that, but ovbviously, not to mistake choice for impossibility.
Are you familiar with Barren Realm Elite? It was running freely on most Bulletin Boards Systems before the internet kicked in. Although a bit of a stretch from what you're looking for, I think it represents an interesting layerisation and simplification of the core mechanics. Unfortunately, it is a bit overly axed towards military conflicts (which I understand is not to be one of your main focus at any rate).
I'd recommend having a look, and shifting some of the designspace from combat back to economy. In other words, if your core mechanics work fine, you don't need to go deep into the detail.
Also, once again basing myself your tech demo showcased earlier, there are simply too many ressources to keep track of. I'm not a big fan of civilization, but Sid Meieir had the right idea behind simplification of the economy (although his model was oversimplification).
Most games that deal well with resources handle anywhere from 2 to 5 resources, and I'd recommend not exceeding this number because this is around the average amount of things a human being is able to keep track of (well, most will reach the golden number 7, but you also want them to be able to remember other things, obviously).
Once you have decided what your 5 core resources are, you will know the depth of your game's complexity, or at least, its potential.
Now population is an obvious must, as is some form of currency, based on your current theme.
Since this is the industrial revolution, you need some kind of manufacturing resource (iron?) and accelerant (coal?)
Let me know if I've got something wrong?
You can pretty much sell any theme to a casual player, depending on how you present it.
The reason is not that industrial revolution cannot be sold to the casual players; it is that you are unwilling to make a non-serious game, aka, are willing to take the serious turn around the industrial revolution theme and want to make the game for the hardcore gamers of the serious game type.
Nothing wrong with that, but ovbviously, not to mistake choice for impossibility.
Are you familiar with Barren Realm Elite? It was running freely on most Bulletin Boards Systems before the internet kicked in. Although a bit of a stretch from what you're looking for, I think it represents an interesting layerisation and simplification of the core mechanics. Unfortunately, it is a bit overly axed towards military conflicts (which I understand is not to be one of your main focus at any rate).
I'd recommend having a look, and shifting some of the designspace from combat back to economy. In other words, if your core mechanics work fine, you don't need to go deep into the detail.
Also, once again basing myself your tech demo showcased earlier, there are simply too many ressources to keep track of. I'm not a big fan of civilization, but Sid Meieir had the right idea behind simplification of the economy (although his model was oversimplification).
Most games that deal well with resources handle anywhere from 2 to 5 resources, and I'd recommend not exceeding this number because this is around the average amount of things a human being is able to keep track of (well, most will reach the golden number 7, but you also want them to be able to remember other things, obviously).
Once you have decided what your 5 core resources are, you will know the depth of your game's complexity, or at least, its potential.
Now population is an obvious must, as is some form of currency, based on your current theme.
Since this is the industrial revolution, you need some kind of manufacturing resource (iron?) and accelerant (coal?)
Let me know if I've got something wrong?
I judge RTS games from their realism, here's my best bet:
Obviously they need people operating the buildings, thats the way it is in every single video game. You cannot have all of your population dead AND still have the buildings working.
If the people don't have a building where they can work, then they don't get money and they aren't willing to pay taxes.
You should have the people paying taxes and the buildings giving resources.
Otherwise you'll have 500 dudes standing around looking dumb. You will also need the people for military and so on....
I understand why its so confusing sometimes. RTS games take a helluva lot of thinking!! After all, its strategy.
Have fun with all that code, thats gonna take some time!
If some of your population dies, then the buildings won't produce. Its a very very difficult formula, but once you got it, you can literally copy it for any RTS.
Thanks, hope that helps.
Obviously they need people operating the buildings, thats the way it is in every single video game. You cannot have all of your population dead AND still have the buildings working.
If the people don't have a building where they can work, then they don't get money and they aren't willing to pay taxes.
You should have the people paying taxes and the buildings giving resources.
Otherwise you'll have 500 dudes standing around looking dumb. You will also need the people for military and so on....
I understand why its so confusing sometimes. RTS games take a helluva lot of thinking!! After all, its strategy.
Have fun with all that code, thats gonna take some time!
If some of your population dies, then the buildings won't produce. Its a very very difficult formula, but once you got it, you can literally copy it for any RTS.
Thanks, hope that helps.
Author
I don't see a 12 year old girl saying "Mummy! Let's play a game about industrial revolution there will be steamengines, we will be digging out coal and cutting down trees to build more factories. It will be fun!" :D
It depends how you define "casual player", but at least this genre will be severly handicaped.
As for resources I will think about these later once I deal with population. Workers dilemma is the most pressing matter for me now.
It depends how you define "casual player", but at least this genre will be severly handicaped.
As for resources I will think about these later once I deal with population. Workers dilemma is the most pressing matter for me now.
Quote:Original post by Metal MercenaryWhat do you mean? I most strategies I know population is not needed to run buildings. I would even say is is quite rare...
Obviously they need people operating the buildings, thats the way it is in every single video game.
Quote:Original post by Acharis
I don't see a 12 year old girl saying "Mummy! Let's play a game about industrial revolution there will be steamengines, we will be digging out coal and cutting down trees to build more factories. It will be fun!" :D
It depends how you define "casual player", but at least this genre will be severly handicaped.
You are wrong.
No one pictured kids playing Civilization either, or Minecraft for that purpose... But they are quite popular amongst the young and old, not just the mainstream gamers.
Step one: understand your target audience...
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