What 2 countries at war could potentially lead to a WW3?

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56 comments, last by Alpha_ProgDes 13 years, 5 months ago
Quote:It's too late,imho.
In addition,many "rare" elements in fact arn't rare and would be found everywhere,but already "scattered" by mother nature ,i.e. never forms large deposites.For example,there is a huge amount of uranium in the Earth crust,but we'll spent more energy to concentrate U-235 than will obtain further in nuclear reactor.
Lay (journalists) almost always confuse "rare" and "difficult for extraction".In that article this two things are simply mixed "into one heap".

Yeah, that makes sense. The reason why I made that comment, is because one could assume that man made trash already contains high concentrations of the aforementioned valuable minerals and metals. It's just a matter of finding an economical way to separate them out again.
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The idea of going to war over 'rare' materials is rather foolish. Most are 'rare' because the value of getting it out of the ground is often less than the value of the recovered resources. (Either because we currently don't have viable methods of extracting from a given location, or because the ease of extraction from other sites is so much greater that it deflates the value.)

There has always been lots of gold in the regions that saw gold rushes. An example is the Yukon gold rushes. Men flooded in and did fairly minor surface mining. They extracted less than 1% of the estimated gold in the region, and then the bulk of the miners gave up and left. Not because there wasn't gold, but because they didn't have the methods of the hard rock mining needed. They didn't have the technology to make the estimates on how much gold was in an area, or ways of breaking up the rock to get at it even if they guessed it was there. Even now there is research into ways to go back over the tailings from gold mines to extract even more gold from them.

During either the First or Second World War, Italy 'mined' the slag heaps that were left over from the Roman empire's iron production.

It is a bit of an irony of Economics. As the value of mined products rises, the supply can actually go up as well.

Why spend all that time and effort to go to war, in a task that is likely to back fire and fail, when you can just pay them a little more and buy the mining rights?


Going to war over water is equally foolish. Look at the planet 'Earth',... most of it is water. Most of it isn't fit to drink, but it is due to what else is IN the water. Extracting the containments isn't an easy task, but neither is shipping vast amounts of water. Scenarios like the US taking over Canada for our vast supplies of fresh drinking water are laughable. The time and effort put into the long and dangerous campaign would be better put toward buying filtering equipment and processing local water.

If something happens to the oceans that you can no longer process the water to something clean and usable, then it means that NO water will remain clean and usable for long. All that fresh clean water in Canada comes FROM the oceans in the water cycle.

(And for anyone dumb enough to think the US could win an easy total military victory against Canada, 2 things. 1. The war of 1812. The Empire burnt the White House. 2. They are having a hard enough time in Iraq, where the people look different than the majority of Americans, and are on the other side of the world. Think of just how much 'fun' it will be to have freedom fighters who look exactly like Americans, and share one of the longest and hardest to patrol boarders in the world? Canadian hunters are also likely better shots than your average Iraqi insurgent.)
Old Username: Talroth
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Quote:Original post by Talroth
The idea of going to war over 'rare' materials is rather foolish.

Well,the big wars often begins because of foolish reasons[smile]
Quote:
There has always been lots of gold in the regions that saw gold rushes. An example is the Yukon gold rushes. Men flooded in and did fairly minor surface mining. They extracted less than 1% of the estimated gold in the region, and then the bulk of the miners gave up and left. Not because there wasn't gold, but because they didn't have the methods of the hard rock mining needed. They didn't have the technology to make the estimates on how much gold was in an area, or ways of breaking up the rock to get at it even if they guessed it was there. Even now there is research into ways to go back over the tailings from gold mines to extract even more gold from them.

Firstly,the gold is not a rare material in comparison with lantanoids,for example.Once in my work I used lutetium orthosilicate,been specially cleared it had a price about 3000$/gramm.

Quote:
Why spend all that time and effort to go to war, in a task that is likely to back fire and fail, when you can just pay them a little more and buy the mining rights?

But who will allow you to REALISE your right to buy something in case of VERY serious crysis?

Quote:
Going to war over water is equally foolish. Look at the planet 'Earth',... most of it is water. Most of it isn't fit to drink, but it is due to what else is IN the water. Extracting the containments isn't an easy task, but neither is shipping vast amounts of water.

And where you are going to get enough energy?
Quote:Original post by Krokhin
Quote:
Going to war over water is equally foolish. Look at the planet 'Earth',... most of it is water. Most of it isn't fit to drink, but it is due to what else is IN the water. Extracting the containments isn't an easy task, but neither is shipping vast amounts of water.

And where you are going to get enough energy?


Where are you going to get enough energy to build the transportation network to move the vast amounts of water and keep it running? Water is heavy, a metric tonne per cubic metre. Moving it huge distances isn't as easy as some would have it.


As for the dollar value of materials? It is true that gold isn't the most expensive material out there, and is in fact rather common. However part of why we have so much gold, and why its value is relatively low is in part because of how much is used. People want it, therefore other people go out to get it. I can't recall the last time I said to myself "Damn, I could really use a bit of lutetium orthosilicate!", and I would assume there aren't a whole lot of producers of it. If you are the only person making something, and someone wants that for something else,... Well you get to name your price, and either they bite and buy, you drop your price and try again, or you get to keep your shiny object to yourself.
Old Username: Talroth
If your signature on a web forum takes up more space than your average post, then you are doing things wrong.
Quote:Original post by Talroth
Quote:Original post by Krokhin
Quote:
Going to war over water is equally foolish. Look at the planet 'Earth',... most of it is water. Most of it isn't fit to drink, but it is due to what else is IN the water. Extracting the containments isn't an easy task, but neither is shipping vast amounts of water.

And where you are going to get enough energy?


Where are you going to get enough energy to build the transportation network to move the vast amounts of water and keep it running? Water is heavy, a metric tonne per cubic metre. Moving it huge distances isn't as easy as some would have it.


I think moving water is one of the things we've gotten pretty good at tackling, actually. Look up where LA gets its water... not exactly a convenient source.

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The middle east faces the very real possibility of an Islamic equivalent of the Thirty Years War. Things are already starting to look grim in Iraq again. The US bought off the bad guys with guns and money, but the underlying issues were not resolved. Things could get ugly and the region can easily descend into decades of slow, prolonged bloodshed. It won't be WWIII, however. The big players -- the US, China, India, and Europe -- can help accelerate the process, let it run its natural course if you will, by playing the various factions against each other, bleed them dry, and extract resources while they can.

In Asia, there are plenty of potential sources of conflict: India/Pakistan, the South China sea, the India/China rivalry, and resource-rich Siberia. India and China are already competing with each other for influence in S.E. Asia, and the US is getting involved as well as a counterbalance to the Chinese. Where will this go over the course of 20, 30, 40 years? Anyone's guess is as good as mine.

"War" will certainly take on a different meaning in the modern, globalized world. It's not clear if the United States realizes this, yet. China certainly does.

Here's a great article discussing the pivotal role that "grand strategy" will play, something our political system may not be fully prepared to grapple with:

Peaceful Rise Through Unrestricted Warfare: Grand Strategy with Chinese Characteristics

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As countless observers have pointed out, the American-Chinese rivalry in the early 21st century bears more than a passing resemblance to the Anglo-German antagonism that led to World War I. In these conditions, it is not surprising if a consensus has emerged, among International Relations (IR) academics, around the proposition that the U.S.-China relation is bound to be the most important bilateral relation in the coming decades.
Yet, the degree of certainty regarding the salience of this bilateral relation is only matched by the degree of uncertainty surrounding its dynamics and its eventual outcome. When it comes to answering the question “Is a conflict inevitable?,” all three IR schools (realism, liberalism, constructivism) hedge their bets by offering both a pessimistic and an optimistic variant – a tacit admission that, on the most burning issue of the day, the predictive value of IR theory is close to nil. (1)
For the outside observer, the most disconcerting aspect of this academic debate is that optimists and pessimists alike share the same unexamined notions of conflict and war, as if “conflict” was a self-explanatory concept, “war” was a trans-historical category. In particular, both proponents and critics of Power Transition Theory (PTT) – the most popular theory about China in academe today - keep arguing about the factors conducive to the initiation, timing, severity, and consequences of “major wars” without giving much thought to either the singularity of Chinese strategic culture or, a fortiori, to three global developments of the past fifty years: the waning of “major wars,” the declining “fungibility” of military force as such and, last but not least, the transformation of “war” itself. (2)


http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/journal/docs-temp/449-corn.pdf

Every few decades, men find ways to unleash ever greater horrors upon their fellow men. The next century will be no exception. Industrialized warfare, death camps, and strategic bombing were all but unimaginable at the beginning of the last century. What unknown terrors might await us now, 100 years later?
----Bart
Quote:Original post by Prinz Eugn
Quote:Original post by Talroth
Quote:Original post by Krokhin
Quote:
Going to war over water is equally foolish. Look at the planet 'Earth',... most of it is water. Most of it isn't fit to drink, but it is due to what else is IN the water. Extracting the containments isn't an easy task, but neither is shipping vast amounts of water.

And where you are going to get enough energy?


Where are you going to get enough energy to build the transportation network to move the vast amounts of water and keep it running? Water is heavy, a metric tonne per cubic metre. Moving it huge distances isn't as easy as some would have it.


I think moving water is one of the things we've gotten pretty good at tackling, actually. Look up where LA gets its water... not exactly a convenient source.


Actually the LA water supply isn't all that more complex than what the Romans did. They have been able to take some short cuts that the Romans couldn't because of newer technology, but the LA water is relatively close, and is mostly a traditional aqueduct system where much of the power comes from gravity. Getting water from great lakes system to LA is a much greater challenge: Raise all that water over TWO continental divisions: Raise the water up out of the St. Lawrence Basin, then fight against the Mississippi Basin, then you have to find a way over the Great Divide to get the water over/through the Rockies.

Now, at the point after lifting water out of the St. Lawrence basis you have to ask yourself,... Why are we taking water from Canada? The Mississippi alone has about twice the volume as the St. Lawrence on a good day, and is one divide closer,... Not to mention the Mississippi basin contains more great rivers than just the Mississippi, which puts the total volume well above the St Lawrence. (Which is actually a really small watershed.)

Much of the rest of the water in Canada is even harder to collect,... given that it flows North. Main collection points would then be even further away from a point you can let the water flow down hill.

Now of course the biggest issue is that if something magically has made all that water in the Mississippi basin, one of the greatest in the world, become nearly impossible to purify into drinking water,... How do you think Canada's waters are going to be?
Old Username: Talroth
If your signature on a web forum takes up more space than your average post, then you are doing things wrong.
Quote:Original post by Wan


I don't see why governments spend so much money useless technology when it'll all just get wiped out in seconds by a Zergling rush.

Kind of silly, really.
True, disregarding Russia's power is a bit naive (forgot who said it first). The Chinese are also starting to boom, and they certainly are no pushover for any attacker. People often think of warfare just in terms of sheer military might; we have a big bad army, so we will win! Not always true... You can't disregard things like the battlefield (terrain, distances, conditions), politics and media, economics and so on.

Surely every American knows about Vietnam. Did we really LOSE in Vietnam militarily, as people often say/think? No. Just by stats alone we were blowing the opposition away. We lost the war in our living rooms and "hearts and mind". General Giap totally outclassed us in propaganda and "style"; mounting large scale (coordinated) attacks convinced the American public the situation would never end, and the footage of body bags on US television drove the message home. He was one hell of a strategist, and any commander has to tip their hat to what he accomplished. He also had the perfect storm; an optimal political and pop-culture climate to operate in. Think of what was going on here at home: civil rights movements & "race riots", anti-government demonstrations and sentiment, unpopular leaders, etc. It was the perfect game of chess, and we got whooped. :P It was a similar situation which ousted the mighty Soviets from Afghanistan, in what is often called "Russia's Vietnam". The point here is that a war is never clear cut. Just because country A seems bigger and mightier in every way than country B (or even a loosely-formed, non-state-sponsored force) doesn't mean victory is assured for the big dog. The underdog can definitely win if given the opportunity.

I don't believe we can withstand a major war, let alone another "World War" in America right now. Vietnam left a deep scar on public confidence that is still sore to this day. We've also grown accustomed to these "World Police" and "Nation Builder" missions and the media fanfare that flows in their wake. We went through wars in the 20th century in which casualties could be measured in the hundreds of thousands (sometimes millions, like WWII). Nowadays we're accustomed to seeing the great tragedy surrounding the loss of a handful of men on the news. Like (the psychopathic, but brutally pragmatic) Stalin said, "The death of one man is a tragedy; the death of millions is a statistic.". That is certainly true. America has come to believe that you can go to war and no one should die except the "bad guys", and if our men are killed we should give up and concede defeat. While my heart goes out to the loved ones of any soldier who dies, and I'm saddened by the loss, I understand that war IS death and killing. You cannot make war without losing something; and sadly, it is human lives that we lose (on both sides) in real war.

It's just my personal feeling that if a large-scale conventional war or battle were to break out, many of my fellow Americans would rather "...live on their knees than die on their feet". I just hope that NO wars break out, because war is really a waste. We should only be compelled to fight a war when we are truly in danger as a nation and as a people.

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