RP'ing while fighting
Re: Hawkins8, Edtharan
I think Hawkins8's post touch on an interesting niche with respect to the audience and to the discussion, which is the group of players that want to RP and do Combat.
For this specific type of players, community leadership, quest giving, or crafting are not the interest of their RP. Their interest is in combat. They are the type that dramatizes encounters with enemies, the type that calls out the names of every attack, the type that doesn't miss a chance to taunt the enemy even if it is an AI.
This is the type of RP that arises from a conflict or a crisis that the game readily provides. This is the type you get when you play a table-top zombie game, where in the whole game you and your group is trying to cooperate and survive.
How to make a Web-based RPG FUN?
I agree, that is why I didn't say to get rid of these roles, only to expand number of roles available. I also suggested some combat roles as part of the new set of roles to add (Mercenary, Caravan Guard, Bandit, etc). So I agree that there is defintily a place for these kinds of players, we just have to give players more potential roles that they can engage in.
It is because I've got the feeling that the classical standalone RPG games may not satisfy what the RPers want, and today's MMOs also may not satisfy what the RPers want. I think that they want a MMO but leaning more on a classic RPG game like.
Today's MMO is emphasizing on making a "world" for everyone. So I keep wondering if this can be changed such that the everyone can have his own world, while the MMO only occurs to a common portion of the whole world. To simply, this is to make a main world on the client side instead of on the server side, where just like the old-fashioned RPG games, it goes through a main story line.
In the game Civilization, the whole game goes through a technology hierachy, new technologies are unlocked along time. So I wonder if this can be applied to the MMORPGs. Instead of a technology hierachy, the game goes through a NPC network hierachy. If you ever played the Ultima series, you may remember that Avatar gets to know his friends alone time, Iolo, Shamino, Dupre, Sentri, Jaana, Julia and etc. Avatar gets to know them one by one alone time.
So just like in the game Ultima, every player has a world Britania, yet a common world Sosaria is for teh MMO part. So that everyone is following one of the several story lines to establish a human network with in game NPCs, that is, Iolo, Shamina...and so forth. Each player will establish his own NPC network and even PC network by adventuring and questing. In game success will depend on the quality of such a network instead of your gears. And such a network is built alone real time, so that you hack'n slash 24/7 may not make you a in game hero. And a casual player can thus compete with a hardcore player in terms of his NPC network quality which is not depending on how much time you spent in game.
Resources farming and items are still on the server side. The world is seemlessly divided into the client side game world for RP and the server side world for MMO. Grouping is made smarter, such that you don't need to yell LFG. You just need to receive the server side quests, nominate yourself as 'available' for some specific quests, then the game mechanic will automatically form a group for you.
Today's MMO is emphasizing on making a "world" for everyone. So I keep wondering if this can be changed such that the everyone can have his own world, while the MMO only occurs to a common portion of the whole world. To simply, this is to make a main world on the client side instead of on the server side, where just like the old-fashioned RPG games, it goes through a main story line.
In the game Civilization, the whole game goes through a technology hierachy, new technologies are unlocked along time. So I wonder if this can be applied to the MMORPGs. Instead of a technology hierachy, the game goes through a NPC network hierachy. If you ever played the Ultima series, you may remember that Avatar gets to know his friends alone time, Iolo, Shamino, Dupre, Sentri, Jaana, Julia and etc. Avatar gets to know them one by one alone time.
So just like in the game Ultima, every player has a world Britania, yet a common world Sosaria is for teh MMO part. So that everyone is following one of the several story lines to establish a human network with in game NPCs, that is, Iolo, Shamina...and so forth. Each player will establish his own NPC network and even PC network by adventuring and questing. In game success will depend on the quality of such a network instead of your gears. And such a network is built alone real time, so that you hack'n slash 24/7 may not make you a in game hero. And a casual player can thus compete with a hardcore player in terms of his NPC network quality which is not depending on how much time you spent in game.
Resources farming and items are still on the server side. The world is seemlessly divided into the client side game world for RP and the server side world for MMO. Grouping is made smarter, such that you don't need to yell LFG. You just need to receive the server side quests, nominate yourself as 'available' for some specific quests, then the game mechanic will automatically form a group for you.
Quote:Original post by Hawkins8
Today's MMO is emphasizing on making a "world" for everyone. So I keep wondering if this can be changed such that the everyone can have his own world, while the MMO only occurs to a common portion of the whole world. To simply, this is to make a main world on the client side instead of on the server side, where just like the old-fashioned RPG games, it goes through a main story line.
But, if all you can do in the game is kill things or transport things, then you don't have that many roles to take on. Sure, it might give the more hard core RPers more tools with which to work with, but for them to RP as they want, they have to ignore your game to do so.
This is the problem, RPers have to ignore the games (as they are) in order to role play, this is because the games do not provide the mechanics to allow player to take on other roles.
Quote:Original post by EdtharanQuote:Original post by Hawkins8
Today's MMO is emphasizing on making a "world" for everyone. So I keep wondering if this can be changed such that the everyone can have his own world, while the MMO only occurs to a common portion of the whole world. To simply, this is to make a main world on the client side instead of on the server side, where just like the old-fashioned RPG games, it goes through a main story line.
But, if all you can do in the game is kill things or transport things, then you don't have that many roles to take on. Sure, it might give the more hard core RPers more tools with which to work with, but for them to RP as they want, they have to ignore your game to do so.
This is the problem, RPers have to ignore the games (as they are) in order to role play, this is because the games do not provide the mechanics to allow player to take on other roles.
The design is in the very contrary, this is not to introduce fight-only element to the game. The world separation is an attempt to pull players away from the grind treadmill. Actually, without pulling players from the grind treadmill, there's nothing can stop the players from hack'n slash 24/7.
For other game elements to be introduced to the game, you need to somehow pull away the grind from the players. Of course you need to do this very carefully to maintain addictiveness/fun of the game to keep at least a certain portion of the player base, in this case the RPers.
The world separation is to make the game more assemble the classic RPG games where fighting is driven by storyline and mission instead of the grind treadmill. In current MMOs quests are crapy because everything is grind centric which stops the design from adding depth to the game, all other elements are superficial other than the hack'n slash. In order to change this, you need to take the grind treadmill abit far away, but not completely removing it.
Quote:Original post by Hawkins8
The design is in the very contrary, this is not to introduce fight-only element to the game. The world separation is an attempt to pull players away from the grind treadmill. Actually, without pulling players from the grind treadmill, there's nothing can stop the players from hack'n slash 24/7.
Actually, what you are doing is just introducing more grind elements, only that the grind is singleplayer not multiplayer.
You are suggesting to give each player their own "world" where they can play as a single player. As you described it, this would be like their own game, so this would ential all the stuff that goes on in an normal PRG only without the MMO component.
Quote:Original post by Hawkins8
For other game elements to be introduced to the game, you need to somehow pull away the grind from the players. Of course you need to do this very carefully to maintain addictiveness/fun of the game to keep at least a certain portion of the player base, in this case the RPers.
I don't think it would pull the grind away from the players, at least not how you described it (so I might have got the concept wrong).
All you seem to be doing is giveing them more area to grind in (their own single player world).
The one part you did seem to get right is that you want to build a social network for the players to act on, but this would not requier a seperate world to impliment.
Quote:Original post by Hawkins8
The world separation is to make the game more assemble the classic RPG games where fighting is driven by storyline and mission instead of the grind treadmill. In current MMOs quests are crapy because everything is grind centric which stops the design from adding depth to the game, all other elements are superficial other than the hack'n slash. In order to change this, you need to take the grind treadmill abit far away, but not completely removing it.
There is grind in Sinlge player RPGs as well. Stroy can be implimneted equally well in Single player or multiplayer worlds, so having a seprate world would not give any advantage for this.
Also, with a pre-set stroy, you actually take away the player ability to role play. You force them to play the role you want, not the role they want to play. Story, does not make for a role playing gmae, although most role playing games seem to have a story (but so do most other games anyway).
Actually it is the implimentation of the story that makes these role playing games what they are. The story is implimented so as to allow the player to affect the unfolding of the story.
However, the players are not allowed to take on their own roles in the story, they are constrained by the story itself to very specific roles.
This is why the current set of RPGs seem so limited. It is not the story, it is not the interactions. It is the fact that the design constrains the players to a particular role.
Playing a Mage or a Thief is not a role, it is a combat choice. If I could play a Mage in an RPG, then I shouldn't be constrained to play the Mage that does exactly the same as the Theif or Warrior but uses a different animation and particle effect. I should be able to play a mage. Perhaps I use spells to charm hapless minions to seek out adventures, or work on some great magical project that could defend the real from enemies (while they do the same or try to counter my attempts). I should be able to try and control arcane enemgies or beings from another plane of existance. ANd yes, maybe I hurl globs of fire at goblins until they are nice and crispy, but I should get the choice.
As it stand I don't have a choice about the role I play. Whether it is fighter, mage or theif, I still do exactly the same tnings, just with different animations and particle effects.
I think a concrete example following Hawkin's intention would be something like this:
Game Concept:
Age of Voyages
This is an MMORPG with a pirate and discovery theme. Each player begins as an villager at a location. Each player is free to start a game with his own island, an island shared by friends, or the mainland where everyone has access.
Own Island: (Single Player structure, RP or RPG)
If the player begins in his own islane, the player starts as a village, and must develop the island by completing many missions similar to those found in a single-player RPG. The player is successful if he can at least get access to a seafaring ship that allows himself to reach the mainland. The lowest level of success is to become a lowly pirate on a ship controlled by NPC. A more successful player may control the island and is the pirate captain, or an admiral that had sworn to defend his island or similar ones from pirates.
Existing Island (RP Island): (Multiplayer Co-op or competitive structure, RP or RPG)
These islands began as the island that a player started. Regardless whether a player had gained absolute control of the island, the player can choose to open the island to friends. If the island is opened before the original player has absolute control, all subsequent players are subjected to the unfinished mission (e.g. pirate attacks) until one of the players gains absolute control. The player who has the absolute control has the ownership of the island. He can continue to build and let new players join this already stabilized island. During this whole process, the players are free to RP or do RPG stuff.
The Mainland: (MMORPG structure)
The Mainland is a place where player could get additional resources or skills to augment their endeavors on their islands (private or shared). It is a place where players can trade, kill stuff, loot, get treasures, harvest resources, explore, etc. Unlike islands, no player has control of the Mainland. Most of the Mainland is very dangerous. Some locations are fortified by NPC kingdoms, while some are pirate heavens. A player that chooses to start the game on the Mainland starts in one of these locations and can expect to play in an RPG type game, until he finds and become known in an RP island. These players can get control of a seafaring ship in three ways: As a pirate captain (without his own port); As an admiral of the NPC Kingdom (docks at the Kingdom's ports); or As a trader (docks at commercial ports, some in the Kingdom's territory). As a pirate captain or a trader, the player must pay a fee to park at docks. As an admiral, the player must complete a value of missions for the kingdom, such as escorting traders, raiding pirates, and discovering new land.
The Newland: (MMO RPG / RP structure)
Newlands discovered by the Kingdom's admirals vary in size, but the news of such discovery always leak and becomes a subject of contest. Players intended to claim the land can organize ships to conquer the land. The conquest is different ways depending on the scenario. One way is for each ship to enter the Newland as an instance where each ship tries to take control of the land in the fastest time. After a week, the Newland is awarded to the ship that was fastest. Once the land is claimed, the winning group will have exclusive access to the Newland for a period of time. When the period is over, the Kingdom or NPC Pirates would start harrassing it unless dues are paid. Newland that is controlled by the Kingdom or NPC Pirates can be re-conquered by player ships.
For claiming the Newland, I mentioned the time-trial method because it allows different ships to "conquer" the land in different ways. An RPG ship might conquer the island only by attacking or capturing its governor. While an RP ship might do it by other means perhaps as negotiation.
Topology:
Only the Mainland and Newlands exist on the world map. Each port has a number of premium locations where a ship may dock directly to land. For trade ports and pirate ports, these locations are the most expensive. For a royal port, these locations are rationed by ranks. Ships that can't dock directly are anchored near the port (crew uses the rowboat to get to land). The number of ships anchored near the port is only roughly represented by ship graphics in the water. They are not physically anchored in the game world. So in the game if you see 10 ships anchored near the port, there might actually be 100 ships anchored there according to the server.
[Edited by - Wai on November 17, 2010 6:24:24 AM]
Game Concept:
Age of Voyages
This is an MMORPG with a pirate and discovery theme. Each player begins as an villager at a location. Each player is free to start a game with his own island, an island shared by friends, or the mainland where everyone has access.
Own Island: (Single Player structure, RP or RPG)
If the player begins in his own islane, the player starts as a village, and must develop the island by completing many missions similar to those found in a single-player RPG. The player is successful if he can at least get access to a seafaring ship that allows himself to reach the mainland. The lowest level of success is to become a lowly pirate on a ship controlled by NPC. A more successful player may control the island and is the pirate captain, or an admiral that had sworn to defend his island or similar ones from pirates.
Existing Island (RP Island): (Multiplayer Co-op or competitive structure, RP or RPG)
These islands began as the island that a player started. Regardless whether a player had gained absolute control of the island, the player can choose to open the island to friends. If the island is opened before the original player has absolute control, all subsequent players are subjected to the unfinished mission (e.g. pirate attacks) until one of the players gains absolute control. The player who has the absolute control has the ownership of the island. He can continue to build and let new players join this already stabilized island. During this whole process, the players are free to RP or do RPG stuff.
The Mainland: (MMORPG structure)
The Mainland is a place where player could get additional resources or skills to augment their endeavors on their islands (private or shared). It is a place where players can trade, kill stuff, loot, get treasures, harvest resources, explore, etc. Unlike islands, no player has control of the Mainland. Most of the Mainland is very dangerous. Some locations are fortified by NPC kingdoms, while some are pirate heavens. A player that chooses to start the game on the Mainland starts in one of these locations and can expect to play in an RPG type game, until he finds and become known in an RP island. These players can get control of a seafaring ship in three ways: As a pirate captain (without his own port); As an admiral of the NPC Kingdom (docks at the Kingdom's ports); or As a trader (docks at commercial ports, some in the Kingdom's territory). As a pirate captain or a trader, the player must pay a fee to park at docks. As an admiral, the player must complete a value of missions for the kingdom, such as escorting traders, raiding pirates, and discovering new land.
The Newland: (MMO RPG / RP structure)
Newlands discovered by the Kingdom's admirals vary in size, but the news of such discovery always leak and becomes a subject of contest. Players intended to claim the land can organize ships to conquer the land. The conquest is different ways depending on the scenario. One way is for each ship to enter the Newland as an instance where each ship tries to take control of the land in the fastest time. After a week, the Newland is awarded to the ship that was fastest. Once the land is claimed, the winning group will have exclusive access to the Newland for a period of time. When the period is over, the Kingdom or NPC Pirates would start harrassing it unless dues are paid. Newland that is controlled by the Kingdom or NPC Pirates can be re-conquered by player ships.
For claiming the Newland, I mentioned the time-trial method because it allows different ships to "conquer" the land in different ways. An RPG ship might conquer the island only by attacking or capturing its governor. While an RP ship might do it by other means perhaps as negotiation.
Topology:
Only the Mainland and Newlands exist on the world map. Each port has a number of premium locations where a ship may dock directly to land. For trade ports and pirate ports, these locations are the most expensive. For a royal port, these locations are rationed by ranks. Ships that can't dock directly are anchored near the port (crew uses the rowboat to get to land). The number of ships anchored near the port is only roughly represented by ship graphics in the water. They are not physically anchored in the game world. So in the game if you see 10 ships anchored near the port, there might actually be 100 ships anchored there according to the server.
[Edited by - Wai on November 17, 2010 6:24:24 AM]
While I share part of your concern, you have to know there is a bigger force at will here...
the games you seem to like are hardcore gamer related (to a certain degree, even WoW is meant for its own hardcore gamers).
Web-games you are referring to (mafia wars, farmville, etc) were initially designed to broaden the audience, with the addition of the casual gamers. The sole idea was to rake in more money by multiplying the audience.
By convincing every non-gamer 40 years old mum to play your game, you're increasing your profits by like say 20%. The game needs to be simple and addictive, it doesn't need to be immersive in terms of story, just in terms of gameplay.
I wish there were more hardcore gamers' games still being made, but which company would really come and say "I'm not interested in an easy 20-40% bigger profits (or check out Zynga for more) I really just honestly want to make great game experiences even though I may turn up a loss by the end of the year"
You'll soon find that the best games are currently developped on the indie scene (thank you Minecraft) where gameplay is perhaps more complex, but appeals to an audience that seeks quality. People who actually bother to learn the mechanics. Casual gamers are more like "gamers against their will": it was so easy they didn't even realize they had started playing "a game" ;)
the games you seem to like are hardcore gamer related (to a certain degree, even WoW is meant for its own hardcore gamers).
Web-games you are referring to (mafia wars, farmville, etc) were initially designed to broaden the audience, with the addition of the casual gamers. The sole idea was to rake in more money by multiplying the audience.
By convincing every non-gamer 40 years old mum to play your game, you're increasing your profits by like say 20%. The game needs to be simple and addictive, it doesn't need to be immersive in terms of story, just in terms of gameplay.
I wish there were more hardcore gamers' games still being made, but which company would really come and say "I'm not interested in an easy 20-40% bigger profits (or check out Zynga for more) I really just honestly want to make great game experiences even though I may turn up a loss by the end of the year"
You'll soon find that the best games are currently developped on the indie scene (thank you Minecraft) where gameplay is perhaps more complex, but appeals to an audience that seeks quality. People who actually bother to learn the mechanics. Casual gamers are more like "gamers against their will": it was so easy they didn't even realize they had started playing "a game" ;)
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