Elements can be used in any way.
In Parasite Eve II fire was high attack spells, wind was attack spells with special effects, water was healing and earth was support.
You can come up with any element you like.
Digimon games ussualy have "machine" element, in Digimon World 1 you had "poo" element.
Fire can beat water and water can beat fire, but it is mainstream that water beats fire.
Magic Elements in RPG's (Fire Water...)
Hey Kahiko.
maybe you should try some complex concept without elements, I don't know, maybe science stuff, like hot cold, pression and all.
maybe you should try some complex concept without elements, I don't know, maybe science stuff, like hot cold, pression and all.
Wood, Metal, power, body, and spirit all tend to be central elements IE made of all four elements.
I wouldn't try to make all the elements make combination elements you will end up staying up all night for several weeks in a row. Instead you should just make a consistent rule-set for how elements interact.
Maybe take something from electricity or pressure mechanics, and have the four elements affect 1 spell based on what's going inside it's system. Opposites won't mix/repel(air/earth, fire/water), anything else will mix, a mix of 2 elements will repel/'not mix'. Then based on which elements are at each node in your spell system, it controls which spell you cast(a system being able to cast a handful of spells with the right amount of tinkering).
I wouldn't try to make all the elements make combination elements you will end up staying up all night for several weeks in a row. Instead you should just make a consistent rule-set for how elements interact.
Maybe take something from electricity or pressure mechanics, and have the four elements affect 1 spell based on what's going inside it's system. Opposites won't mix/repel(air/earth, fire/water), anything else will mix, a mix of 2 elements will repel/'not mix'. Then based on which elements are at each node in your spell system, it controls which spell you cast(a system being able to cast a handful of spells with the right amount of tinkering).
If you're feeling ambitious you might reassess from the start exactly what you're doing.
IRL, the "element" scheme - fire\water\earth\wind - is basically just an older way of understanding what things are made of. Hence the hydrogen comment, and the modern concept of "elements" which are different types of atoms. The "elements" in question correspond with plasma, liquid, solid and gas; the more common states of matter that we encounter on an everyday bases.
This is irrelevant; what you're building has nothing to do with what things are made of. You're trying to come up with a set of "seperate but equal" classes which interrelate so that some have advantages over others.
In a game prototype I'm making, I have cannons, tanks and infantry. They have unique properties which let them contend with other units. Without going into my game's rules, the point is that it's the same thing you're dealing with here. It's just a very different theme.
So the "elements" scheme is just a convention for classes, one you can throw away and replace with whatever you want.
Should you?
Sure, why not. But make sure you understand exactly what you're throwing out and what you're doing.
The reason for the use of the classical elements in this manner is because it is inuitive. The player already knows how the classes will interrelate. Of course water beats fire. Duh. My tank\cannon\infantry system has the same advantage; it's intuitive (for example) that the tank is the fast one.
So the off-the-shelf, familiar system is the one to use if you don't care about this part and are focusing your energy on other things.
If you make up something else, the challenge for you is to clearly communicate to the player how the classes interrelate.
Creatively, it can be anything. The classes could be, I dunno, philosophical ideas. Gods. Flavors. Whatever. Go nuts, it's art. And it's magic. Magic spells don't have to be made of dirt or water. Decide on your themes and setting and everything. If you're reopening this issue rather than taking a scheme off the shelf, than what your clases are, is an art issue.
But don't forget that the challenge for you is one of communication.
IRL, the "element" scheme - fire\water\earth\wind - is basically just an older way of understanding what things are made of. Hence the hydrogen comment, and the modern concept of "elements" which are different types of atoms. The "elements" in question correspond with plasma, liquid, solid and gas; the more common states of matter that we encounter on an everyday bases.
This is irrelevant; what you're building has nothing to do with what things are made of. You're trying to come up with a set of "seperate but equal" classes which interrelate so that some have advantages over others.
In a game prototype I'm making, I have cannons, tanks and infantry. They have unique properties which let them contend with other units. Without going into my game's rules, the point is that it's the same thing you're dealing with here. It's just a very different theme.
So the "elements" scheme is just a convention for classes, one you can throw away and replace with whatever you want.
Should you?
Sure, why not. But make sure you understand exactly what you're throwing out and what you're doing.
The reason for the use of the classical elements in this manner is because it is inuitive. The player already knows how the classes will interrelate. Of course water beats fire. Duh. My tank\cannon\infantry system has the same advantage; it's intuitive (for example) that the tank is the fast one.
So the off-the-shelf, familiar system is the one to use if you don't care about this part and are focusing your energy on other things.
If you make up something else, the challenge for you is to clearly communicate to the player how the classes interrelate.
Creatively, it can be anything. The classes could be, I dunno, philosophical ideas. Gods. Flavors. Whatever. Go nuts, it's art. And it's magic. Magic spells don't have to be made of dirt or water. Decide on your themes and setting and everything. If you're reopening this issue rather than taking a scheme off the shelf, than what your clases are, is an art issue.
But don't forget that the challenge for you is one of communication.
http://www.kongregate.com/games/Badim/doodle-god
This should help you brainstorm element combinations.
This should help you brainstorm element combinations.
You could take it one step lower, and subdivide them into Heat, Cold, Wet, and Dry, which can can combine as following:
Heat + Wet = Wind
Heat + Dry = Fire
Cold + Wet = Water
Cold + Dry = Earth
You could elaborate on this and make more involved elemental ratios, and then develop a sort of chemistry where you can have procedural effects arise based on the ratios of elements. Perhaps negating elements release energy and leave the remaining element as a precipitate to react further; for example, Wind and Fire react, negating Wet and Dry, creating energy and an excess of Heat, which will then either harmlessly disperse or react directly with, say, water, negating the Cold creating Energy and an excess of Wet, and so forth until the elements essentially dilute beyond use.
Heat + Wet = Wind
Heat + Dry = Fire
Cold + Wet = Water
Cold + Dry = Earth
You could elaborate on this and make more involved elemental ratios, and then develop a sort of chemistry where you can have procedural effects arise based on the ratios of elements. Perhaps negating elements release energy and leave the remaining element as a precipitate to react further; for example, Wind and Fire react, negating Wet and Dry, creating energy and an excess of Heat, which will then either harmlessly disperse or react directly with, say, water, negating the Cold creating Energy and an excess of Wet, and so forth until the elements essentially dilute beyond use.
Quote:Original post by JoeCooper
This is irrelevant; what you're building has nothing to do with what things are made of. You're trying to come up with a set of "seperate but equal" classes which interrelate so that some have advantages over others.
I agree with this. What the "elements" are is irrelevent. What is important is how they interact.
Quote:Original post by JoeCooper
Creatively, it can be anything. The classes could be, I dunno, philosophical ideas. Gods. Flavors. Whatever. Go nuts, it's art. And it's magic. Magic spells don't have to be made of dirt or water. Decide on your themes and setting and everything. If you're reopening this issue rather than taking a scheme off the shelf, than what your clases are, is an art issue.
But don't forget that the challenge for you is one of communication.
In a design I came up with a while ago, I replaced the elements with Gods. I had several Gods and each God had several spells associated with them. A player was not limited to taking spells from just one of the Gods and could, if they wanted to, take spells from multiple (or even all) of the gods.
The relationships between the Gods, and the spells they had, was down to the back story of the gods (one was a god of life, another a god of death one was a god of trickery, etc). IT was the "personality" I created for the God that determined how the spells interrelated.
I also had spells that dealth with the elements directly, however, I didn't have a dominance (or Scissors/Paper/Rock) relationship between them. Instead, each element didn't interact with the other elements.
For example: One could create a wall of fire and this spell would burn any character that entered it. However, I deliberatly left out a wall of water as this could interact with the fire (instead you had spells that allowed you to walk on water, breath underwater, etc). If you cast a wall of fire on water, then the wall of fire would be on the surface of the water.
This way, each of the elemental spells could be cast and I didn't have to work out how they combined or affected each other.
Author
I have decided to continue with a complex system with no intention to create balance. I decided that this would fit the game the most, i wanted to create something unique and complex where tactics wil win. Thank you for helping me it helped alot to look trough my current system again and making changes
I think the comments (some your own!) that alluded to going with a more fundamental approach are spot on. Thinking of fire, water, earth, and air as standalone elements is insufficient, IMHO, to logically describe the intuitive interactions you're looking for.
States. We need states. Solids, Liquids, and Gases. Let's add Plasma as well. These are our base states.
Now let's add some forces, things that combine with our states. We'll have Energy and Motion. We'll further divide Energy into positive energy (Heat) and negative energy (Cold).
So what are some possibilities with such a system?
First, some abbreviations...
Heat (H)
Cold (C)
Motion (M)
Solid (S)
Liquid (L)
Gas (G)
Plasma (P)
Bob is a practitioner of Solid Based Motion magic (i.e., "Earth Bender"). He can manipulate the solids around him, using them as defenses to BLOCK incoming attacks or as projectiles.
Fred however, studied the art of Gas Based Motion magic (i.e., "Air Bender"). He can manipulate the air around him, DEFLECTing incoming attacks or using the motion of the air to move his opponents (e.g., knockbacks). He can also enhance his own mobility by increasing his jump distance, or reduce falling damage.
Sam devoted his life to the study of Liquid Based Cold Motion magic (i.e., "Water Bender").
George is a student of Plasma Based Motion (e.g., "Fire Bender"), and is also studying the higher art of Plasma Based Heat Motion (i.e., lightning manipulation).
You may want to also introduce Light into the equation as another incarnation of Energy. Possibly also subdividing it into Light and Dark:
Energy->Heat (active)
Energy->Cold (active)
Energy->Light (passive)
Energy->Dark (passive)
You could then assign a difficulty to each state/force combination to come up with a hierarchy for determining skill or mastery levels. It would seem intuitive for the following progression of difficulty:
solids > liquids > gases > plasma
That is, it's easiest to learn solid manipulation. A little harder to learn how to manipulate liquids. Just a bit more difficult to learn how to manipulate gases, and finally the most difficult to manipulate plasma. Or you could rationalize it this way:
gases > liquids > solids > plasma
Since air is much lighter and contains less particles to deal with.
I'm going to ramble now, using some of the above to come up with some ideas...
I could start by learning Solid manipulation. I could create small units of earth/dirt starting with a small pile that could slow my opponent's movement and working my way up to walls which could completely obstruct a passageway for example.
Next I could add Motion to my Solid Manipulation skills resulting in at first the ability to project small units of earth at my target (small projectile attacks) all the way up to localized earthquakes.
I could then add Heat to my studies of Solids and at first maybe I could heat up my opponent's weapon causing him to drop it (if metal) or consuming it (if wood). Then later maybe I could actually even convert my summoned/created earth to lava.
Just some thoughts. Hope they've been useful!
Take care.
States. We need states. Solids, Liquids, and Gases. Let's add Plasma as well. These are our base states.
Now let's add some forces, things that combine with our states. We'll have Energy and Motion. We'll further divide Energy into positive energy (Heat) and negative energy (Cold).
So what are some possibilities with such a system?
First, some abbreviations...
Heat (H)
Cold (C)
Motion (M)
Solid (S)
Liquid (L)
Gas (G)
Plasma (P)
Bob is a practitioner of Solid Based Motion magic (i.e., "Earth Bender"). He can manipulate the solids around him, using them as defenses to BLOCK incoming attacks or as projectiles.
Fred however, studied the art of Gas Based Motion magic (i.e., "Air Bender"). He can manipulate the air around him, DEFLECTing incoming attacks or using the motion of the air to move his opponents (e.g., knockbacks). He can also enhance his own mobility by increasing his jump distance, or reduce falling damage.
Sam devoted his life to the study of Liquid Based Cold Motion magic (i.e., "Water Bender").
George is a student of Plasma Based Motion (e.g., "Fire Bender"), and is also studying the higher art of Plasma Based Heat Motion (i.e., lightning manipulation).
You may want to also introduce Light into the equation as another incarnation of Energy. Possibly also subdividing it into Light and Dark:
Energy->Heat (active)
Energy->Cold (active)
Energy->Light (passive)
Energy->Dark (passive)
You could then assign a difficulty to each state/force combination to come up with a hierarchy for determining skill or mastery levels. It would seem intuitive for the following progression of difficulty:
solids > liquids > gases > plasma
That is, it's easiest to learn solid manipulation. A little harder to learn how to manipulate liquids. Just a bit more difficult to learn how to manipulate gases, and finally the most difficult to manipulate plasma. Or you could rationalize it this way:
gases > liquids > solids > plasma
Since air is much lighter and contains less particles to deal with.
I'm going to ramble now, using some of the above to come up with some ideas...
I could start by learning Solid manipulation. I could create small units of earth/dirt starting with a small pile that could slow my opponent's movement and working my way up to walls which could completely obstruct a passageway for example.
Next I could add Motion to my Solid Manipulation skills resulting in at first the ability to project small units of earth at my target (small projectile attacks) all the way up to localized earthquakes.
I could then add Heat to my studies of Solids and at first maybe I could heat up my opponent's weapon causing him to drop it (if metal) or consuming it (if wood). Then later maybe I could actually even convert my summoned/created earth to lava.
Just some thoughts. Hope they've been useful!
Take care.
Quote:Original post by Kahiko
I have decided to continue with a complex system with no intention to create balance. I decided that this would fit the game the most, i wanted to create something unique and complex where tactics wil win. Thank you for helping me it helped alot to look trough my current system again and making changes
If you want the player to use tactics to win, then you will need some kind of balance. If the game is unbalanced, then there will very likely be dominated or dominent tactics.
A dominated tactic is one that is weaker than other, or is not useful at all. A player would never use this as it is a waste of their resources (it is also a wate of developer resources to include it in your game).
A Dominent tactic is one that is always useful. A player would never use any other tactic because if they did, then the other player using this tactic would win. This is worse than a dominatged tactic as it makes all of the other tactics useless and using any other tacitc is a waste of the player's resources (and it makes the time and effort spent developing all the other tactics a wate of developer resources too).
This is why balance is important.
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