Anyway, me and Pouya were talking about this earlier today. We came to the conclusion that if there is a major war soon, it's not going to be because of WikiLeaks. The world has been building its tensions for a decade now, possibly longer, and every year it seems more and more people are itching for the trigger. If anything, WikiLeaks is just a convenient excuse for war; it was going to happen either way sooner or later.
Just like Archduke Ferdinand was a convenient scapegoat for WW1; the world was a powderkeg waiting to go off.
/scared
//kinda
If WW3 occurs within the next 6 months, thank WikiLeaks
I just think there are times when things should be kept secret.
The wikileaks assumption that having all information available to everybody is a good thing hasn't really been evaluated, has it? They strike me as idealists who are too caught up in themselves and release these things with the assumption that everything will be just fine via the magic of Openness!
It's like the idea that making everything open-source will somehow erase all the problems with software...
The wikileaks assumption that having all information available to everybody is a good thing hasn't really been evaluated, has it? They strike me as idealists who are too caught up in themselves and release these things with the assumption that everything will be just fine via the magic of Openness!
It's like the idea that making everything open-source will somehow erase all the problems with software...
Quote:Original post by Prinz Eugn
I just think there are times when things should be kept secret.
If you ever watched Stargate SG-1 this topic comes up a lot. Albeit if the government had a Stargate program I might want to know.
The point of this is?
Every government on this planet is in it for the big 'WIN', they have all done the same thing the US gov has done. They use their power for their own good. It is human nature and the nature of the governing bodies.
So what if they have shown that the US gov is bad, so is the rest of them. They dont represent the populace any more than the Russian gov represents their people, the Chinese gov represent their people, the Pakastan gov represents their people, the Israel gov, the Indian gov, the British, the French, the German and on and on....
All gov's use their power to facilitate their own agenda, once in awhile they do get called out on it, at least (hopefully) they don't kill the messenger this time. Now we just need a wikileaks for all of them, the bad part is, nobody in power really cares other than to try to shut them up.
With all of the fear mongering going on over the past few years, Im surprised they haven't simply 'disappeared', as in being imprisoned without a trial and never heard from again. Its nice to see publicly they aren't all nice and want to protect our security as they keep blatantly pushing on us (which is BS, no country is ever 100% safe) while creating their own atrocities.
Every government on this planet is in it for the big 'WIN', they have all done the same thing the US gov has done. They use their power for their own good. It is human nature and the nature of the governing bodies.
So what if they have shown that the US gov is bad, so is the rest of them. They dont represent the populace any more than the Russian gov represents their people, the Chinese gov represent their people, the Pakastan gov represents their people, the Israel gov, the Indian gov, the British, the French, the German and on and on....
All gov's use their power to facilitate their own agenda, once in awhile they do get called out on it, at least (hopefully) they don't kill the messenger this time. Now we just need a wikileaks for all of them, the bad part is, nobody in power really cares other than to try to shut them up.
With all of the fear mongering going on over the past few years, Im surprised they haven't simply 'disappeared', as in being imprisoned without a trial and never heard from again. Its nice to see publicly they aren't all nice and want to protect our security as they keep blatantly pushing on us (which is BS, no country is ever 100% safe) while creating their own atrocities.
Quote:Original post by Prinz Eugn
I just think there are times when things should be kept secret.
The wikileaks assumption that having all information available to everybody is a good thing hasn't really been evaluated, has it? They strike me as idealists who are too caught up in themselves and release these things with the assumption that everything will be just fine via the magic of Openness!
It's like the idea that making everything open-source will somehow erase all the problems with software...
Ofcourse there are some things that should be kept secret, especially for a nation at war, Its the governments job to keep those secrets though, not wikileaks and embarassing diplomatic mail isn't one of those things.
Its obvious that government secrecy is out of control, Most of the material published on wikileaks is embarassing for the nation/organisation that kept it secret but in general the things published shouldn't have been kept secret in the first place and in some cases it should have been published by the government with names and other identifying information censored (In the cases where the identifying information relates to civilian informers etc).
Government isn't software, in a democracy the people needs to know what their government is doing in order to make informed decisions when its time to vote, in software there are massive advantages for some users to have sourcecode access but for most users its not essential because they aren't expected to influence the direction the software will be developed in in the future.
Quote:Original post by SimonForsmanMost of the material published on wikileaks is embarassing for the nation/organisation that kept it secret but in general the things published shouldn't have been kept secret in the first place and in some cases it should have been published by the government with names and other identifying information censored
What would be the point of publishing notes that US officials think the german foreign minister is an idiot? Its like publishing that you said your mom/teacher/boss/friend is an idiot.
Most of the material that was published is nothing more than high school gossip. It's US diplomats stating their opinions about important figures from other countries. This doesn't need to be public. US diplomats are allowed to have their opinions about people they deal with, and it's absurd to expect all those opinions to be positive. In this case, the messenger gets all the blame.
Some of the rest of the material is different and the blame goes with the US for doing that stuff in the first place.
Some of the rest of the material is different and the blame goes with the US for doing that stuff in the first place.
Isn't it Saudi Arabia who's "doing that stuff" here?
I distinctly remember us not bombing Iran.
If anything, this makes it look like there actually are real security worries from up high instead of us just going after Iran because their oil bourse is in euros or something.
...Not that I'm afraid of Iran. Just saying, that one makes me feel slightly less bad about our government; heads of state are genuinely concerned and we're trying the softer approach.
I distinctly remember us not bombing Iran.
If anything, this makes it look like there actually are real security worries from up high instead of us just going after Iran because their oil bourse is in euros or something.
...Not that I'm afraid of Iran. Just saying, that one makes me feel slightly less bad about our government; heads of state are genuinely concerned and we're trying the softer approach.
Quote:Original post by JoeCooper
Isn't it Saudi Arabia who's "doing that stuff" here?
I distinctly remember us not bombing Iran.
Yet.
And it is definitely the US government that has been building tension against Iran during the last 8 years.
Excuse the rest of the world for not feeling exactly sympathetic towards your government, its actions and its anti-Wikileaks propaganda. If WW3 starts, the US will, more likely than not, be the instigator.
Quote:Original post by SimonForsmanQuote:Original post by Prinz Eugn
I just think there are times when things should be kept secret.
The wikileaks assumption that having all information available to everybody is a good thing hasn't really been evaluated, has it? They strike me as idealists who are too caught up in themselves and release these things with the assumption that everything will be just fine via the magic of Openness!
It's like the idea that making everything open-source will somehow erase all the problems with software...
Ofcourse there are some things that should be kept secret, especially for a nation at war, Its the governments job to keep those secrets though, not wikileaks and embarassing diplomatic mail isn't one of those things.
Its obvious that government secrecy is out of control, Most of the material published on wikileaks is embarassing for the nation/organisation that kept it secret but in general the things published shouldn't have been kept secret in the first place and in some cases it should have been published by the government with names and other identifying information censored (In the cases where the identifying information relates to civilian informers etc).
Government isn't software, in a democracy the people needs to know what their government is doing in order to make informed decisions when its time to vote, in software there are massive advantages for some users to have sourcecode access but for most users its not essential because they aren't expected to influence the direction the software will be developed in in the future.
Diplomacy is a delicate art and it would be unwise to air internal deliberations and communication. The government is not an open source project and at a time when opaque regimes are doing their best to outmaneuver us on all fronts -- politically, economically, and militarily -- we should not be assisting them by making them privy to our operations.
This leaked material is very interesting, though. It'll be valuable for the historical record but I'd hate to be any of the folks responsible for obtaining and disseminating it. This is unfortunately very likely to have far-reaching consequences concerning Internet freedom. The WikiLeak team may not understand this.
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