What Does Everyone Think About The New Site Layout?

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486 comments, last by GameDev.net 13 years ago

Actually, now that I think about it, why am I getting ads when I'm a paying GDnet+ member? :blink:

You might see some if they are newly added, like the post separator ad was. If you see anything besides the leaderboard, box and forum-topper ads let us know if it goes on for a few days

Drew Sikora
Executive Producer
GameDev.net

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I really miss the active topics button. It was my bookmark to GDNet.

I really miss the active topics button. It was my bookmark to GDNet.


I think that's about the same as clicking "View Latest Content" at the top of it-looks-like-every-page, and then clicking the "Forums" tab.

I really miss the active topics button. It was my bookmark to GDNet.

As has been mentioned a couple times in this thread already, the equivalent in the new forum seems to be the Active content page.

i'm on a lot of technical other forums, where accuracy and correctness is needed. the only-plus rating system works very well.

and you can flag posts that are incorrect or inpolite. just report them. which i do on the other forums, too.

as said, it's a CHANGE. you can not YET say if it's for the better or the worse. but you could at least try it first, instead of going into attackmode. without trying it out for a while, we can't KNOW if it works, or not.


I'm not sure as to the origins of this sentiment that discussing problems with the new site is somehow equivalent to whining or attacking the developers, but it's patently ridiculous. When you support a software product, you don't consider users submitting feedback and bug reports as personal attacks, do you? I know for me, user feedback is ALWAYS appreciated, even if we don't always end up making the change the user wanted. So much so, in fact, that both at work as well as in my hobbyist projects I continually reach out to users to cajole them into giving feedback. Trying to put a damper on that here seems absolutely mind boggling.

As for the rating system, it's not hard to look at the new system and determine logically what the outcome of its effects will be. You don't always have to run an experiment to know the outcome of a process. Trying to dump off the role previously filled by the rating system onto the moderators, who already have enough work to do, doesn't sound like a brilliant move to me. It's not really their job to try to run posts through the constantly fluctuating filter of community standards, and even if it were I don't think they could do it with any degree of success.

Where would they draw the line? Profanity? How about if I just call you a stupid moron? What if I followed you around and after every single one of your posts, I also posted a followup "I think everything he just said is wrong."? I bet that would get me an even higher rating, since a few people might find it funny to rate those posts up, and anyone who finds it annoying won't have any recourse but to bug the moderators to censor me when the actual content of my posts isn't breaking any rules.
Mike Popoloski | Journal | SlimDX

As for the rating system, it's not hard to look at the new system and determine logically what the outcome of its effects will be. You don't always have to run an experiment to know the outcome of a process. Trying to dump off the role previously filled by the rating system onto the moderators, who already have enough work to do, doesn't sound like a brilliant move to me. It's not really their job to try to run posts through the constantly fluctuating filter of community standards, and even if it were I don't think they could do it with any degree of success.

Where would they draw the line? Profanity? How about if I just call you a stupid moron? What if I followed you around and after every single one of your posts, I also posted a followup "I think everything he just said is wrong."? I bet that would get me an even higher rating, since a few people might find it funny to rate those posts up, and anyone who finds it annoying won't have any recourse but to bug the moderators to censor me when the actual content of my posts isn't breaking any rules.


That would get you banned, I suspect. And how is this different from the previous system? If users found harassment and trolling funny, they could rate it up in the old forums too. It's also still possible to ignore users if you dislike their posts that much.

I guess the moderators responsibilities include moving threads around and maintaining specific FAQs and probably other things; I can't find an FAQ that details the moderators job description. However, to a large extent I think applying certain standards IS part of their job (at least, that's always been my impression) e.g. closing threads which become abusive or contrary to the gamedev rules / terms and conditions, as well as dealing with users who break those. This happened in the old forums.

I feel that some things could be better about the new user rating system: ratings could perhaps be more visible, and individual posts could have down voting. However, I think it's rather extreme to say that because users lack down-voting, standards of posting will suddenly drop. If you want to maintain standards then make useful posts, and encourage others to do the same. If users are motivated to do this by a number, that's great, but if they're not I don't see why they would care any more about down-voting than up-voting.

As for the rating system, it's not hard to look at the new system and determine logically what the outcome of its effects will be. You don't always have to run an experiment to know the outcome of a process. Trying to dump off the role previously filled by the rating system onto the moderators, who already have enough work to do, doesn't sound like a brilliant move to me.

But you ignore the problem with the old system. That a rating specifically designated to indicate helpfulness and technical knowledge could and was (no need to experiment there) lost for things unrelated at all to helpfulness or technical knowledge. It also had the problem of not being on the same page as the posts themselves, which has it's own bag of side effects.

The system as is now will see the cream rise to the top eventually. I think people are just upset that their ratings got lost, even though they were pretty arbitrary.

I do agree that flagging individual posts as unhelpful is important, but I don't think it should affect the user's profile negatively as they were just trying to help or voicing an opinion. As far as I know this is the same way stack overflow works but slightly less complicated?

If a person is conducting themselves in a way that hurts the community, then yes it should be the moderators job to step in. That's a large portion of their responsibility; to moderate. Entirely self moderated communities are usually trash because the community very rarely holds itself as accountable as a moderator holds themselves

Szecs suggestion might help some, but the new system is already implemented and will probably have the same effect.

That would get you banned, I suspect. And how is this different from the previous system? If users found harassment and trolling funny, they could rate it up in the old forums too. It's also still possible to ignore users if you dislike their posts that much.


If it were that blatant then I agree, it would probably get me banned. But a more subtle variation most likely wouldn't, because banning someone is a blunt and heavy handed punishment; you either broke the rules and are forcibly removed, or you're not. There is no measure of degree. You can't just ban someone for being chronically stupid or unhelpful. As for how this is different from the previous system? I would think this would be obvious. With a downvote, users can "punish" me for my rudeness, which in turn drops my rating and can push me below rating thresholds that many users use when browsing the forums.


I guess the moderators responsibilities include moving threads around and maintaining specific FAQs and probably other things; I can't find an FAQ that details the moderators job description. However, to a large extent I think applying certain standards IS part of their job (at least, that's always been my impression) e.g. closing threads which become abusive or contrary to the gamedev rules / terms and conditions, as well as dealing with users who break those. This happened in the old forums.


Yes, it's the mod's job to enforce de jure rules. Is it also their job to enforce the de facto standards of the community, which are far more flexible and can fluctuate rather quickly? How would the mods even determine these "community standards"? In the old system they are an amalgamation of everyone's opinions, not determined by any one person or group of people.


I feel that some things could be better about the new user rating system: ratings could perhaps be more visible, and individual posts could have down voting. However, I think it's rather extreme to say that because users lack down-voting, standards of posting will suddenly drop. If you want to maintain standards then make useful posts, and encourage others to do the same. If users are motivated to do this by a number, that's great, but if they're not I don't see why they would care any more about down-voting than up-voting.


I'm not bothered by rating based on post. It was an oft-requested feature of the old system, and it lets you see which of your posts are making a good impression, and which aren't. Without a down-vote to counter up-votes though, they basically lose all meaning. As for why they would care more about down-voting than up-voting? Well, down-voting implies the loss of goodwill built up from previous work. With only up-voting, there's no need to worry about individual posts as much, since they can't ever hurt you, only help. You can throw out posts here and there without thought to how they affect the community's image of you as a whole; unlike in real life where everything you say will be held against you, for good or for ill.


But you ignore the problem with the old system. That a rating specifically designated to indicate helpfulness and technical knowledge could and was (no need to experiment there) lost for things unrelated at all to helpfulness or technical knowledge. It also had the problem of not being on the same page as the posts themselves, which has it's own bag of side effects.


I think this is a common misconception; I don't think the old rating ever denoted only technical competence, nor was it meant to. It simply stood for your reputation in the community. Each person has some opinion of you, and an idea how the rating system works, as he sees it. If someone decides that he will rate down people with poorly written posts, he's completely within his rights to do so, and your rating will reflect that little piece of his opinion of you based upon that. I know that personally I find language debate threads to be incredibly asinine and inane, so very often starters of such threads would find themselves rated down based upon that. It lets me express my opinion of such threads without requiring moderators to step in and ban people. I may not like such threads, but I don't think users should be banned for starting them either.
Mike Popoloski | Journal | SlimDX

As for the rating system, it's not hard to look at the new system and determine logically what the outcome of its effects will be. You don't always have to run an experiment to know the outcome of a process. Trying to dump off the role previously filled by the rating system onto the moderators, who already have enough work to do, doesn't sound like a brilliant move to me. It's not really their job to try to run posts through the constantly fluctuating filter of community standards, and even if it were I don't think they could do it with any degree of success.




But you ignore the problem with the old system. That a rating specifically designated to indicate helpfulness and technical knowledge could and was (no need to experiment there) lost for things unrelated at all to helpfulness or technical knowledge. It also had the problem of not being on the same page as the posts themselves, which has it's own bag of side effects.

The system as is now will see the cream rise to the top eventually. I think people are just upset that their ratings got lost, even though they were pretty arbitrary.

I do agree that flagging individual posts as unhelpful is important, but I don't think it should affect the user's profile negatively as they were just trying to help or voicing an opinion. As far as I know this is the same way stack overflow works but slightly less complicated?

If a person is conducting themselves in a way that hurts the community, then yes it should be the moderators job to step in. That's a large portion of their responsibility; to moderate. Entirely self moderated communities are usually trash because the community very rarely holds itself as accountable as a moderator holds themselves

Szecs suggestion might help some, but the new system is already implemented and will probably have the same effect.


I've stated before that I personally feel the ratings in the Lounge wasn't a great idea. But at the time, one of the moderators came back and stated that even if you removed the ratings from the Lounge, what's to stop them from searching every non Lounge post (which I can agree with to an extent)?

I've never made it any secret that I've never cared for the ratings system. I prefer the only rate up approach, with reasons that way2lazy2care stated. If a person posts incorrect technical information in a post, they'll be corrected, and at the same time, probably won't have a good rating to begin with. If a person is being a jerk and obstructing the community, then yes, it's a moderators job.

Excluding areas where a moderator should get involved, the rate down feature seemed in my opinion to be most used in Lounge topics dealing with opinion. I personally don't see how opinion is unhelpful towards the overall community. But if we're talking something like politics, why should someone's personal belief harm their overall perception with their technical knowledge? Right now, you can rate the post, which is how it should be. Politics? Unhelpful and avoid. But at least this way, it won't be "You believe in XYZ? Then obviously I'm not going to trust you, nor should anyone trust you, when it comes to the following C++ question." The typical response in the previous forums was "Well, if you care about your rating that much, avoid answering questions in threads that people feel passionate about". What about people who are passionate about such threads and also care about their rating though?

I think this is a common misconception; I don't think the old rating ever denoted only technical competence, nor was it meant to. It simply stood for your reputation in the community.

It said quite plainly in the "rate this user" dialogue what it meant. I am sorry that so many people don't read the dialogue before clicking it or assume that it means something that it isn't meant to.

edit: I think rating people down also makes people more likely to become apathetic to the rating, which makes them less likely to change their manner of posting. In the new way, they are still encouraged to help even if they might have a controversial personality.

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