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superpig

Gdnet Black (Alpha)

61 posts in this topic

Ditto on leiavoia's eye strain comments! Another site I frequent, www.ocforums.com has this as the only skin and I can only be on the site for a few minutes at a time before the headaches start.
Thanks for making it optional, and I'll pass.
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This CSS is definitely a godsend. The comments of Blogs definitely needs to be modified though (as mentioned before for http://www.gamedev.net/blog/23/entry-2249112-48-hours-later-moving-forward/ )
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[quote name='MarkS' timestamp='1294789109' post='4757432']
Ditto on leiavoia's eye strain comments! Another site I frequent, [url="http://www.ocforums.com"]www.ocforums.com[/url] has this as the only skin and I can only be on the site for a few minutes at a time before the headaches start.
Thanks for making it optional, and I'll pass.
[/quote]
IT BURNS!

For the truly desperate, here's another tip:

If you use Firefox, you can View->PageStyle->NoStyle to completely disable server-provided stylesheets. On an unwieldy forum like this it may not be very useful, but for sites that make you want to rip your eyes out it makes it readable at least.
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[quote name='superpig' timestamp='1294717457' post='4757041']
[b](edit by Gaiiden)[/b]
Please everyone if you notice issues with the black theme, do not use the Feedback tab, but report them here so everyone can see them, offer corrections and superpig can also have all issues in one place for making edits to the theme.[/quote]
Oops sorry, didn't know there was a thread. :/
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I went and wrote a user stylesheet for myself for ipboard. Still a bit buggy, and written as a bunch of horrible !important directives and probably chrome dev-branch specific. Posting it in case anyone else wants a rough idea of what to override. Still has a big rough edge in the reply form bits, and probably elsewhere: [url="https://gist.github.com/776147"]Custom.css[/url] . Doubt it'd be a good idea to drop in directly, but hey, you might like it ;)

Among other things, it kills custom text colors and sizes by posters. Sidesteps the whole "some fool used the same grey text in their post as the background, for no good reason" thing.

EDIT: Alternative version with a fake downrate button to keep my fellow negative nancy's cold hearts warm at night: [url="https://gist.github.com/776179"]troll-custom.css[/url] - now with [url="http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/6094/clipboardfb.png"]screenshot[/url]!
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[quote name='leiavoia' timestamp='1294725626' post='4757097']
[b]Black text on white background:[/b] This is the highest contrast you can get and the easiest to read... or so some people claim. This works good for print but not web. Obviously, the bright white is not popular around here and that's because were talking about positive (emissive) color. Translation: it burns your eyes.[/quote]Agreed.


Compared to the "light" skin, I also see the black one easier. However, I'd still tone down a bit the black bg and make the text lighter.
WRT [url="http://www.gamedev.net/topic/592469-what-does-everyone-think-about-the-new-site-layout/page__view__findpost__p__4756578"]my previous post[/url], I think the black version features more contrast already but text is still more difficult than it used to be.
I wonder if it's the font itself, it seems to be more condensed. ?_?
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The light skin text was recently condensed in line spacing... doesn't seem to affect the dark theme yet/currently

[url="http://www.gamedev.net/topic/592469-what-does-everyone-think-about-the-new-site-layout/page__view__findpost__p__4757651"]Relevant Post[/url]
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Awesome!

Much appreciated, a lot easier on the eyes... but maybe it's a bit to dark?

Anyway far better then the default plasma-beam skin.

:)



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I found a bug on the black version of the site.

If you look at the "What do you think of the new site" thread in the thread list page. When you hover over it the link to the last page shifts to a new line every time you hover or mouse away. It's pretty annoying if that's what you are trying to click. Especially when you use odd paths with your mouse to get from point A to B. It took me 2 minutes to click the last page :'(
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[quote name='leiavoia' timestamp='1294819376' post='4757607']
[quote name='MarkS' timestamp='1294789109' post='4757432']
Ditto on leiavoia's eye strain comments! Another site I frequent, [url="http://www.ocforums.com"]www.ocforums.com[/url] has this as the only skin and I can only be on the site for a few minutes at a time before the headaches start.
Thanks for making it optional, and I'll pass.
[/quote]
IT BURNS!
[/quote]

See, and this is where you show your 'qualifications' to break down horribly.

The colour scheme at ocforums has always been very easy on my eyes, and has allowed me to read it for hours on end. The whole point of a Black theme is to enable people with eyes more sensitive to light than average to still easily enjoy a site's content. Something like your suggested #DDD as a background shade is still far too bright for me to read off of comfortably for extended periods of time with a large back lit screen.

Right now, this reply box is actually white on black, and while it is a little annoying, it isn't too bad for the time I need to read off it. However, there are two large black bars to either side of it. If they were gray or white, I would already be developing a headache.

Your posts in this thread are the equivalent of suggestions for more comfortable thread rise and run lengths for the front steps to a building, and you are ignoring that some of us are actually looking for a proper wheel chair ramp. If you actually care about developing websites that are highly accessible, I strongly suggest you get it out of your head that there is any kind of a 'one size fits all' method you can take.



On a side note, for people like me the largest issue tends to come from large fields of very light colours which project large amounts of light into the eyes, especially on the edges of vision. A bright image boxed in a dark colour can go a long way to reducing the eye strain and headaches.
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[quote name='Luckless' timestamp='1294847051' post='4757757']
See, and this is where you show your 'qualifications' to break down horribly.

The colour scheme at ocforums has always been very easy on my eyes, and has allowed me to read it for hours on end. The whole point of a Black theme is to enable people with eyes more sensitive to light than average to still easily enjoy a site's content. Something like your suggested #DDD as a background shade is still far too bright for me to read off of comfortably for extended periods of time with a large back lit screen.

Right now, this reply box is actually white on black, and while it is a little annoying, it isn't too bad for the time I need to read off it. However, there are two large black bars to either side of it. If they were gray or white, I would already be developing a headache.

Your posts in this thread are the equivalent of suggestions for more comfortable thread rise and run lengths for the front steps to a building, and you are ignoring that some of us are actually looking for a proper wheel chair ramp. If you actually care about developing websites that are highly accessible, I strongly suggest you get it out of your head that there is any kind of a 'one size fits all' method you can take.



On a side note, for people like me the largest issue tends to come from large fields of very light colours which project large amounts of light into the eyes, especially on the edges of vision. A bright image boxed in a dark colour can go a long way to reducing the eye strain and headaches.
[/quote]

Who are you replying to? Granted, not everyone is the same, but I know that the white text on black gives me horrible headaches.
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I had been replying to leiavoia and the previous comment from that user where they made the suggestion of a black text on an off white/grey background.

The Black/Dark theme is for those of us who have issues reading from the default blue-white/bright theme. If you can read the default just fine, then you don't really need to come here and complain about how the dark theme is hard for you to read,... This is not the theme you are looking for. This is for the rest of us who DO have an issue with the default theme and need something different so we can comfortably read the site. (And that is why the dark theme is an option.)
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[quote name='Luckless']See, and this is where you show your 'qualifications' to break down horribly.[/quote]
With all due respect: First, i think your analysis is bordering on character attack, at least the way you word it. Consider toning down the holier-than-thou attitude. Second: please don't ignore the fact that i clearly stated that what i wrote was personal opinion and subjective.

Since you make me defend my 'qualifications', here they are: I currently work as a web developer for a website with an awful lot of text content. My job is to make sure it is easy to read, looks nice, and works well, because our income depends on it.

Before that i was a color analyzer in a large photo/color lab. I spent most of every day for six years doing color correction and darkroom work. I have a very acute sense of color from doing that. I also learned a lot about environmental and biological factors that can affect your sense of color.

None of this means that my opinions are The Most Right. My point is: it's okay to have a differing opinion, but please don't talk down to other people like they're blubbering idiots.

[quote name='Luckless']The colour scheme at ocforums has always been very easy on my eyes, and has allowed me to read it for hours on end.[/quote]
And that's the opinion part. And that's fine. Everybody sees differently.

[quote name='Luckless']The whole point of a Black theme is to enable people with eyes more sensitive to light than average to still easily enjoy a site's content.[/quote]
My eyes are quite sensitive. That's why i posted in this thread in the first place. I would also like to have a dark theme!

[quote name='Luckless']Your posts in this thread are the equivalent of suggestions for more comfortable thread rise and run lengths for the front steps to a building, and you are ignoring that some of us are actually looking for a proper wheel chair ramp. If you actually care about developing websites that are highly accessible, I strongly suggest you get it out of your head that there is any kind of a 'one size fits all' method you can take.[/quote]
From an administrative point of view, consider this: newcomers to the site won't know there are multiple skins available. They'll just plop in and judge the site as-is. I think the [i]default[/i] theme at least should be as close to "one size fits all" as possible. Certainly not wrong to have alternates though.

[quote name='Luckless']The Black/Dark theme is for those of us who have issues reading from the default blue-white/bright theme. If you can read the default just fine, then you don't really need to come here and complain about how the dark theme is hard for you to read,... This is not the theme you are looking for. This is for the rest of us who DO have an issue with the default theme and need something different so we can comfortably read the site. (And that is why the dark theme is an option.)
[/quote]
But i DO have issues with the default theme. Again, that's why i started reading this thread to begin with. I would still like a dark theme myself. (My text editor and terminals use a light on dark theme, for instance). I just don't think the current color selections are any improvement over the light theme, that's all. With some tweeks it would be good.


[b]A few other observations on color, garnered from slaving away for years in front of a machine doing color correction:[/b]
[list][*]Environment can affect your sense of color. If you normally have your room lights on, turn them off (or vice-versa). Some people have a hard time staring at a screen without ambient light in the room. Some people need darkness. (I'm going to guess that most people that prefer the dark theme are also working in a dark room).[*]Placement of ambient lights in the room can affect your sensitivity to light. I personally find that lights in front of the computer or above it become painful. Light behind me is okay.[*]Time of day affects your sensitivity to color. See if you feel differently about the light/dark themes in the morning versus late at night. Usually eyes are more sensitive and tired at night.[*]Caffeine will dull your sense of color.[*]Amount of time spent looking at the screen will take it's toll. If you feel overly light sensitive, try getting regular "light breaks", especially if you work in a dark room.[*]Exposure to certain colors will dull or skew your perception of other colors. That's why brightly colored backgrounds are never a good idea for reading. (some websites still don't understand this!)[*]Certain colors or color combinations cause physical pain! High-chroma blue/red combinations are the ultimate sins, IMO. I also note that high-chroma colors on neutral grey will also do this. If they are on white or black, they seem to be fine. Stark white/black (zebra stripe) can be painful for some.[*]Your perception of color will change naturally over time. If asked to identify a specific color, even trained experts will not (usually) be able to pick the exact same shade the following day![/list]
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Just wanted to point out that for some reason the Black theme doesn't seem to work on the XNA 4.0 Workshop forum: [url="http://www.gamedev.net/topic/592661-xna-40-winter-workshop-introduction/"]http://www.gamedev.n...p-introduction/[/url] .. or at least for me I get dark grey on darker grey... I would have thought the post would have the same classes that the CSS could already handle... Looking at the source it seems to have thrown in a "[color="#881280"][font="monospace"][size="2"]<span style='color: #1C2837'>[/size][/font][/color]" at the beginning of the post, could be related to copy-pasting into the Post box (as formatting seems to be preserved).

For things like this I can only assume that posting in such a way may break visibility in other themes (unless we can ban the span, which I thought was already banned from posting)
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[quote name='MaulingMonkey' timestamp='1294841960' post='4757729']The light skin text was recently condensed in line spacing... doesn't seem to affect the dark theme yet/currently

Relevant Post
[/quote]Sorry, I didn't mean to compare against previous rel of this style but rather the previous gamedev. The concept I'm trying to point out is related to x-dimensions of characters.
For example, OpenOffice writer has a property in a "Character" tab allowing to scale the glyphs in the x dimension... something like that. Is the new font more compact? I'm not even sure. I guess it's just me.
[quote name='Calexus' timestamp='1294842433' post='4757730']Much appreciated, a lot easier on the eyes... but maybe it's a bit to dark?[/quote]Nah... it's ok in my opinion. Even darker would be ok for me but in case bg isn't made darker, I would appreciate some extra brightness on text it still seems to be a bit low on contrast for me.

As for the light themes, although I cannot see the individual sub-pixels, I often perceive high-luminance areas to be "not smooth" (I can see the pixel grid relatively easy)... LCD kinda sucks and I suppose I'm pretty high in sensitivity so +1 for black!
Anyway, is the text color light blue? It appears to be. I think it is. Maybe I'll annoy someone but I think it needs more contrast.
[attachment=984:blueText.png]

By the way, can we have justified text?

[quote name='leiavoia' timestamp='1294863807' post='4757931'][b]A few other observations on color, garnered from slaving away for years in front of a machine doing color correction:[/b]
[list][*]Caffeine will dull your sense of color.[/list][/quote]No this is not true, I don't believe this for a minute. It cannot be real. It is not real. (Joke intended)
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When using the Black (Alpha) theme, the number of views in the View column has gray text on gray background that makes it hard to see.

Note: I initally logged this using the Feedback tool. It was marked as "Resolved", but the problem still remains.
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[quote name='Alpha_ProgDes' timestamp='1294949230' post='4758454']
Note: I initally logged this using the Feedback tool. It was marked as "Resolved", but the problem still remains.
[/quote]

That's probably because I'm working on the Dark theme as kind of a sideline to everybody else, so it's been requested that bugs/issues with it be kept out of the official feedback channels. Keeping the bugs and reports in this thread is the appropriate thing to do for now.

I've dropped off the radar for the past couple of days due to other projects - I should have a bit of time this evening / tomorrow to go through and correct some of the issues people have mentioned here, as well as try to cover a bit more of the site. I think I agree with the suggestions that the contrast between text and background should be increased a bit; my present thought is to make the text brighter.
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[quote name='dwarfsoft' timestamp='1294872741' post='4758030']
Just wanted to point out that for some reason the Black theme doesn't seem to work on the XNA 4.0 Workshop forum: [url="http://www.gamedev.net/topic/592661-xna-40-winter-workshop-introduction/"]http://www.gamedev.n...p-introduction/[/url] .. or at least for me I get dark grey on darker grey... I would have thought the post would have the same classes that the CSS could already handle... Looking at the source it seems to have thrown in a "[color="#881280"][font="monospace"][size="2"]<span style='color: #1C2837'>[/size][/font][/color]" at the beginning of the post, could be related to copy-pasting into the Post box (as formatting seems to be preserved).

For things like this I can only assume that posting in such a way may break visibility in other themes (unless we can ban the span, which I thought was already banned from posting)
[/quote]Yeah, unfortunately I think this is just the way the WYSIWG editor encodes colours (the paintbrush button after the size dropdown). People will just need to be aware, when authoring their posts, that the colours will break on alternate themes.


Perhaps at some point we can look into adding proper CSS-stylable 'heading' and 'subheading' styles to the 'Other Styles' dropdown.
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OK, I've gone through and collapsed all the black theme's changes into one place, so that the other changes that have been made to the regular skin will now propagate through. Let me know if anything's broken as a result.
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[quote name='superpig' timestamp='1294978370' post='4758670']
OK, I've gone through and collapsed all the black theme's changes into one place, so that the other changes that have been made to the regular skin will now propagate through. Let me know if anything's broken as a result.
[/quote]

Don't know if it is a result but the RSS menu is not readable.
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[quote name='CableGuy' timestamp='1295110783' post='4759325']
Don't know if it is a result but the RSS menu is not readable.
[/quote]

Quite possibly. You mean the light-grey-on-orange popup you get when you click the RSS icon?
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Can we please go back to the white background for source code?! The color scheme is ridiculous and having to squint and/or highlight text so I can read is extremely annoying. Also quotes colors are just an eye strain. [url="http://www.gamedev.net/topic/592617-gdnet-black-alpha/page__view__findpost__p__4757757"]Quote that black and white[/url]

An example of source code madness: [url="http://www.gamedev.net/topic/592960-how-to-design-specialised-ui-for-subclasses/page__view__findpost__p__4759060"]Crazy Code Colors[/url]

Oh and can we remove the violet/purple text against the black and gray backgrounds? Text is hard to read. And also, can we make links blue instead of gray?
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[quote name='superpig' timestamp='1295143390' post='4759491']
[quote name='CableGuy' timestamp='1295110783' post='4759325']
Don't know if it is a result but the RSS menu is not readable.
[/quote]

Quite possibly. You mean the light-grey-on-orange popup you get when you click the RSS icon?
[/quote]

Yep.
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