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staticVoid2

Proof God doesn't exist?

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staticVoid2    381
I've been thinking about this over the past few months and I believe its turning me into a bit of an atheist (which is kind of scary) but anyway, it all stems from
this phase:

"Cogito ergo sum[i][b]"

[/b][/i]which means....[i][b]

[/b][/i]"I think, therefore I am"

I keep wondering if there is a god and if he/she acknowledges that they exist then how do they know that they are in turn not being monitored by some higher power
(i.e. god's god). No matter what dimension or place god is existing within there will still be that acknowledgement of existence and therefore the uncertainty: are they really the apex entity?

This goes on forever (god's god's god etc.) until you realize that the current portrayal of god just does make any sense. Maybe because I'm human I just cant conceptualize an awareness of
one's own existence at that level (i.e. god), but, really, even if god is omnipotent, what if one day he finds out that everything he has ever known is false and that there is this higher power.

Is religion really just the answer to man's fear of death?, I mean we've been dead before and we kind of know how that went... just nothing.
[i][b]
[/b][/i]

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Palidine    1315
Different religions have different answers to this.

In the Greek mythology, many of the gods did in fact have parents: Athena was born out of the head of Zeus. Zeus in turn was created by Uranus who was birthed from Gaia who was born of Chaos and Chaos existed eternally before that: nothing created Chaos, it was timeless.

In the Christian religion the tree is a lot simpler. Jesus was the son of God. After he died they became part of the trinity: became again one god. But the god of the old testament is timeless (similar to Grecian Chaos). That is he existed forever. "Without beginning and without end" or something like that, I think, appears in the bible, or various hymns or both... I don't remember explicitly.

From a physics standpoint things are perhaps even simpler. Time simply did not exist before our universe came into existence. In so far as I understand current physical theory, time is actually a product of the Big Bang. So to talk about "time before the Big Bang" is actually meaningless.

But speaking purely philosophically, no you really haven't found "proof of God's non existence". That particular philosophical point has been successfully quashed probably a few hundred or even thousand years ago with the argument of the eternal nature of Gods. The idea that something must have a beginning is a strong human intuition but is not necessarily a fact in either a philosophical or scientific way. If you can conceive of something lasting from now until "forever" you should also be able to imagine something that has always existed. Both directions are equally infinite :)

-me

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Chris Reynolds    110
1.) A man died on a cross which somehow saves the entire human race (only a TINY fraction of 1% of life that has been on the planet) from living in eternal damnation.
2.) Somehow we are still all born into sin and guilt and should spend our lives repenting and asking for forgiveness.
3.) If you don't do this, you will spend an eternity in a burning bad place - if you do this you will spend eternity in absolute happiness.

My question isn't which God is at the top... it's.. what could possibly make someone read a relic written thousands of years ago that says these things, and nod their head.. "yea... yea.. this makes sense, I'm going with this one."

It's my opinion that there are thinkings and there are believers. The more you think, the less religion will make sense to you.

If you think turning athiest is scary (don't know why you would) then I suggest you spend more time believing and less time thinking ;)

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Concentrate    181
Yea I had the same thought couple of years ago. Then I thought possibly that aliens could have created us and watched us grow, just like we are creating complex robots and watching them grow. I wish the higher being would just come and set everything straight. So there will be no more confusion on religion, life and everything else. Its really hard to fight against cognitive thinking in favor of beliefs. Logically religion doesn't make sense, at least not now( and probably never will ). So my friend I suggest you to just forget this thought ever came to your mind and either, just believe, or live your life the way you feel is right. If not, this might become an obsession.

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d000hg    1199
[color=#1C2837][size=2]"Cogito ergo sum[b]" [/b]isn't a law of nature though, is it? It's just one philosopher's idea.[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]
[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2][quote][/size][/color][color=#1C2837][size=2]It's my opinion that there are thinkings and there are believers. The more you think, the less religion will make sense to you.[/quote]That can be scientifically disproved because there are demonstrably people who are far better (if you don't mind the assumption) at thinking than you or I, and understand science better than you or I, who believe [i]more[/i] strongly than we do.[/size][/color]

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staticVoid2    381
[quote name='Chris Reynolds' timestamp='1295568367' post='4762129']
1.) A man died on a cross which somehow saves the entire human race (only a TINY fraction of 1% of life that has been on the planet) from living in eternal damnation.
2.) Somehow we are still all born into sin and guilt and should spend our lives repenting and asking for forgiveness.
3.) If you don't do this, you will spend an eternity in a burning bad place - if you do this you will spend eternity in absolute happiness.

My question isn't which God is at the top... it's.. what could possibly make someone read a relic written thousands of years ago that says these things, and nod their head.. "yea... yea.. this makes sense, I'm going with this one."

It's my opinion that there are thinkings and there are believers. The more you think, the less religion will make sense to you.

If you think turning athiest is scary (don't know why you would) then I suggest you spend more time believing and less time thinking ;)
[/quote]


theres another thing... eternal damnation. If we live for 70 years, commit a few sins here and there (punch someone etc.) then 70 / infinity = 0?
so really our sins meant 0 for the amount of punishment we were given? and yet other animals just simply pass away to non-existance?

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Hodgman    51222
Capital-G-god is omnipotent and omnipresent, but not self-aware. It does not think, but it still is. Dilemma solved.

After all, even if you accept "I think therefore I am" as true, the reverse ("I am therefore I think") is obviously not true. You've not proven that God thinks, which has absolutely no impact on whether God exists or not ([i]on the other hand, if you did prove that God does think, then that would have an impact on the question of God's existence[/i]).

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Pthalicus    738
I'm an atheist. ( It's not [i]that[/i] scary, is it? I mean, have you played Amnesia? That's [i]way[/i] scarier... )

Yet, I believe that "God" exists.
The concept of [i]God[/i] lives in the mind of the believers of "God", much like Father Christmas.
There is no hard evidence of [i]God[/i], as we don't yet have the technology to prove the concept.

Interestingly, perhaps [i]God[/i] exists in another sense; perhaps this world/universe is a prison or rehabilitation, or even a school.
Imagine the possibility of there only being one concious life, "God", yet the universe is populated by uncountable lifeforms.
Perhaps, in this situation, [i]God[/i] is to live the full life of each lifeform in turn, which exists, will exist, and has existed, to better itself.
Perhaps this is a simulation, inwhich all of this happens in the blink of an eye.

Or perhaps, it's just us, and despite being incredibly lucky, we managed to somehow survive the onslaught of chaos in the universe.
Humans could be around for millions of years still, with technology beyond belief... yet everyone on this planet today will be dead in 150 years.

Life is short.

So, have fun, and make lots of fun games. :)

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staticVoid2    381
[quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1295569042' post='4762138']
Capital-G-god is omnipotent and omnipresent, but not self-aware. It does not think, but it still is. Dilemma solved.

After all, even if you accept "I think therefore I am" as true, the reverse ("I am therefore I think") is obviously not true. You've not proven that God thinks, which has absolutely no impact on whether God exists or not ([i]on the other hand, if you did prove that God does think, then that would have an impact on the question of God's existence[/i]).
[/quote]

Ok, that kind of makes sense actually.

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staticVoid2    381
[quote]I'm an atheist. ( It's not [i]that[/i] scary, is it? I mean, have you played Amnesia? That's [i]way[/i] scarier... )[/quote]

I'm not really an atheist, I've actually read the new testament every night for the past four years with no exception. I'm reading revelations at the moment which is quite brutal and probably why I'm posting this. which reminds me... I think ill order a King James bible from Amazon while I remember.

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SteveDeFacto    109
You are trying to rationalize something that is obviously fiction but this is just going to lead you back to where you started. Embrace the truth and forget the lies you were taught as a child because they will lead you no where. A large majority of the people on the internet are atheist because it is the most logical assumption when you have access to an infinite source of information like the internet. The only people who believe in god are those who have been taught it from a very young age and who do not have the information to realize the truth.

If I told you that I had an invisible pink hippo living in my apartment you would think me crazy because it is an outrageous claim. If I showed you strong evidence such as a bag full of invisible hippo poop you would have to accept it as truth. God is a magic man in the sky which is an extremely outrageous claim and should require strong evidence but there is none...

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owl    376
Asking if god exists is like asking if bittersweet food is [font=arial, sans-serif][size=2]palatable[/size][/font].

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Chris Reynolds    110
There is nothing scary about not believing in God. Believe in humanity, good will, creativity, innovation, and love - these are more comforting to me than any God, because I have experienced them and I understand the immense meaning they bring to human life. My only beef with religion is that it seems to bring false meaning and conflict - both inner and outer.

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Wan    1366
[quote name='staticVoid2' timestamp='1295567426' post='4762111']
This goes on forever (god's god's god etc.)[/quote]
Ha! The mere existence of stack overflows is a proof that god exists.

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way2lazy2care    790
[quote name='SteveDeFacto' timestamp='1295571442' post='4762153']
You are trying to rationalize something that is obviously fiction but this is just going to lead you back to where you started.[/quote]
I often wonder how people are so ready to damn how close minded right wing christians are but pay no mind to stuff like this. I'm a christian, but I'd never go so far as to say the Buddha is fiction or that agnostics are wrong. It is just as harmful to think as close mindedly against religion as it is to think close mindedly for any religion.

[quote]If I told you that I had an invisible pink hippo living in my apartment you would think me crazy because it is an outrageous claim
[/quote]
if you got 4 billion people to also believe there was an invisible pink hippo living in your apartment and there were historical documents conveniently matching the timelines of other known and accepted historical accounts that said that this pink hippo existed I probably wouldn't think you were crazy. I wouldn't necessarily believe you, but I wouldn't think you were crazy.

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owl    376
[quote name='SteveDeFacto' timestamp='1295577126' post='4762193']
I can't help but hate threads like this one. In my opinion it should be a standard rule that mods close these threads...
[/quote]

and you're fat

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Concentrate    181
[quote name='owl' timestamp='1295577261' post='4762195']
[quote name='SteveDeFacto' timestamp='1295577126' post='4762193']
I can't help but hate threads like this one. In my opinion it should be a standard rule that mods close these threads...
[/quote]

and you're fat
[/quote]



Rotfl!!!!!!!!!!!! Classic comeback.

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way2lazy2care    790
[quote name='SteveDeFacto' timestamp='1295577126' post='4762193']
I can't help but hate threads like this one. In my opinion it should be a standard rule that mods close these threads...
[/quote]

it would probably be better if they did. All it will do is offend some users and they rarely raise any points that could be considered new. Questioning the entire belief structure of a core belief (not belief specific) that someone has held their whole life is obviously going to offend them and rarely will do anything to disprove anything anymore than their proofs for a god would disprove a belief that one does not exist.

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akaitora    399
This is actually a very interesting question. I am very blessed to make my living as a game programmer. I am doing something that I have always wanted to do even as a child. Our development team at work spends our time creating virtual worlds. Our artists spend quite a bit of time designing characters, terrains, rivers, roads, mountains, lighting, etc until they look perfect. As for us engineers, we spend our time creating virtual laws that our entities must obey and follow. For example, it is up to my discretion as to how much gravity will be applied to the virtual world... if any at all. It is also my responsibility to create the objective and rules for accomplishing that objective. Often times it requires a team of talented and intelligent ceos, producers, writers, artists, engineers, and sound technicians to accomplish a good virtual world experience. I am so happy that video games don't happen by chance or by accident because if they did... well I think many of us would be out of jobs. Virtual worlds simply don't create themselves... nor would they evolve over billions of years by chance. You see we know that Virtual Worlds and video games can't create themselves. Even though the universe is far more complex however, we easily try to reject God.

I believe this is what the Apostle Paul was getting at in Romans when he wrote the following,

[size="2"]"18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, [sup]19[/sup] since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. [sup]20[/sup] For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.[/size][size="2"] [sup]21[/sup] For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. [sup]22[/sup]Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools [sup]23[/sup] and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles." (Romans 1:18-23)[/size]



Its funny, I have a toy of Donkey Kong that sits on my computer at work. I asked a friend of mind where it came from. He said that some toy company must have designed it. However when I asked him where do real monkeys come from, he said they are just a product of mindless chemical reactions that evolved over billions of years... Interesting...

Alright friends, take it easy! =)

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Hodgman    51222
[quote] You see we know that Virtual Worlds and video games can't create themselves.[/quote]Yeah, just as a chicken cannot give birth to the egg from which itself hatches from...
However, virtual worlds, video games, and chickens [b][i]can[/i] [/b]spontaneously come into existence by random, unguided forces of nature (as evidenced by the existence of chickens :P).[quote]Even though the universe is far more complex however, we easily try to reject God.
...
Its funny, I have a toy of Donkey Kong that sits on my computer at work. I asked a friend of mind where it came from. He said that some toy company must have designed it. However when I asked him where do real monkeys come from, he said they are just a product of mindless chemical reactions that evolved over billions of years... [/quote]"Rejecting God" is not the same thing as believing that "God" is actually a mindless manifold... You could say that those "mindless chemical reactions" [i]are [/i]God, in which case it would still be misleading to say that "God created the world" (implying "he" did it on purpose).

If you step in dog poop, you don't marvel and the wonderous design created by the almighty dog anus. If you did, then after looking at the world you'd probably conclude that God himself is just a really large sphincter...[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1295581258' post='4762215']
Questioning the entire belief structure of a core belief (not belief specific) that someone has held their whole life is obviously going to offend them[/quote]Sorry, but if you're offended by questioning your belief of the paranormal/spiritual, then you're exactly the kind of person that [i]needs[/i] to question a few more things about your life, and lighten the fuck up. Anyone serious about their paranormal/spiritual beliefs should [i]enjoy[/i] questioning and discovering their foundations.

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CadetUmfer    234
Doh, I accidentally upvoted this thread, so I'd better reply.

[quote name='staticVoid2' timestamp='1295567426' post='4762111']
Is religion really just the answer to man's fear of death?
[/quote]

No, it's man's answer to the fear of being accountable to no one but himself. That's a hard pill to swallow, it's easier to pretend you're accountable to [i]something[/i].

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