[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1300192917' post='4785996']
[quote name='ChaosEngine' timestamp='1300157257' post='4785882']
Again, you can argue the "prime mover" view of god, i.e. Einsteins God of physical laws who set up the initial parameters for the universe (the physical constants) and let the whole thing unfold, but that is redefining the term creationist as most people understand it. The actual creation story as written in the bible is, as I said, trivially disprovable until you start jumping through literary and linguistic hoops. Which is why most Christians I know accept it for what it is, a myth.

If I were to start spreading the belief that bananas are elephants, does that change what an elephant is? And I was unaware that reading it being conscious of the language it was originally written in is "jumping through literary and linguistic hoops."
[/quote]

So do you have an actual point?[/quote]

no more point than you I suppose. I guess if anybody were to throw around flowery words that didn't really mean anything in that context and attached them to the blanket statement that they disagreed with something it would sound like an argument.

[font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][quote name='ChaosEngine' timestamp='1300157257' post='4785882']
Again, you can argue the "prime mover" view of god, i.e. Einsteins God of physical laws who set up the initial parameters for the universe (the physical constants) and let the whole thing unfold, but that is redefining the term creationist as most people understand it.

[/font]Yes! That is redefining "creationist"! That is exactly what I am trying to do! As "Creationism" is currently defined, it is pure bunk. It doesn't have to be that way though and it is currently that way because of absurd teachings for [font="sans-serif"]millennia[/font].
[font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][/quote]

Ok, you've kinda killed the discussion right there. It's the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.[/quote]
No it's not. He started by establishing that "creationism" is both wrong and not really creationism. You didn't give him a counter example, you just said, "'creationism' is wrong," which agrees with him, and he never changed his position from his original assertion. Therefore, it is not the fallacy of which you speak. Had he started his argument saying he believed established creationism rather than saying, quite specifically, that that was not what he was, then it would be.[/font]

I already explained that you have made fundamental errors of fact (the big bang theory is not "first there was nothing, which exploded) and logic (science does not need to disprove god, it is an astoundingly unlikely construct for which we have zero evidence).


And don't hide behind a "medical condition". My brother has dyslexia, and he works damn hard to overcome it. Besides, just because you spell words incorrectly (which is just laziness on a browser with a spell checker) doesn't excuse the lack of coherence in your arguments or the structure of your posts. They're a mess and even people on your own side agree.

[

[font="Times New Roman"]Few things buddy, its possible you have a brother with my condition, but I have no way of knowing if this is true not to add that he is not me, and if you had one you should have more respect for us who do try to make it easy for you to communicate with us , I even told you I am trying to help you so read my posts
[/font]

[font="Times New Roman"]
[/font][font="Times New Roman"]Also just so you know the spell check wont work for some reason so its not just "laziness"
[/font]

how can it be lazy when I spend an hour or so on one post?

What part is "incoherence?"
I think you just don't want to debate and will use anything
(like someone who can't use grammar or spell corectly) to get out of it, if your brother dose have it then you would be use to talking to someone with this problem
You know nothing about me, where did I say that I did not try?
no where, in fact i I work damn hard to buudy, hardar then you ever probely have in your life, so don't call me lazy or making ecuses cause I'm not, I have a condition that makes it hard for me to comuncate, and I still try, I'll be the frist to admit that my stuff needs work, but i work evrey single day of my life trying to help jerks like you who dont care how hard we try and assume "making excuses, dose not try, lazy, oh and all of them seem to have a brother\sister\mother\father\pet dog
that has the condition, you can say what you want about me, but leave insults and shuch out of a debate they ahve no plcae.
Now for the big bang, where did I say it came form nothing?
I did not, I said what caused the big bang, the theroy said something REALLY dense
but what caused that?


Also in the 5[sup]th[/sup] century there was no evidence of nuclear power, there was no evidence that the Sun was in the center instead of Earth, there was no evidence of TV’s being possible, just because there is no evidence yet dose not mean its not real



[font="Times New Roman"][font="Arial"]And there IS evidence to suggest the Bible has some facts, the creation story just happens to go along with how the earth was formed, in order, now how on earth could people back then know that suns take longer to form then planets[/font]?
[/font]


[font="Times New Roman"]It may not be hard core evidence but how can you explain them knowing everything in order?[/font]

[font="Times New Roman"]Could it be Luck? Possible but the odds are really small, [/font]Show me how God is unlikely, what about him is impossable?




[font="Times New Roman"]Creating new things?[/font]

[font="Times New Roman"]We clone animals, I’ll give you it is a copy, but it is a new life that was not there before[/font]

[font="Times New Roman"]So created new life is not impossible, as such who’s to say a being before us could not do it? [/font]

[font="Times New Roman"]Created the cosmos?[/font]

[font="Times New Roman"]We already can make some pretty intense explosions, nothing says we can’t cause another “big bang” giving time to learn [/font]

[font="Times New Roman"]Maybe it’s the odds that an all powerful god exists?[/font]

[font="Times New Roman"]How about these odds, a explosion in space happened, caused by a very dense thing, to explode which in turn made the materials to make the planets which started pulling on one another and forming [/font]

[font="Times New Roman"]Taking millions of years, which then happened to form one planet in one solar system, in the goldilocks spot, allowing for life to be made, which some how just “appeared” and started forming for billions of years which lead to a race called humans, who happen to be the only type of being like that at this time[/font]

[font="Times New Roman"][/font]

[font="Times New Roman"][/font]

[font="Times New Roman"]Wonder what the odds that all that happened with out any intelligent involvement , seems to me the other one is much more unlikely... not [/font]

With all due respect, it appears that having a peaceful discussion regarding religious stuff is impossible on any forum.

With all due respect, it appears that having a peaceful discussion regarding religious stuff is impossible on any forum.

Well if your talking about me, if you read my posts the aguemnt is about my condition NOT Religion
for the most part the debate is ok
it's just pepole thow in things nothing to do with the debate

honestly the debate is very lay back and impresevie for the most part

If there is a god he's an asshole. If you had the power to do anything and loved everyone wouldn't you just make everyone happy all the time?

I will restate my argument with as little "flowery words" as I can.

The literal interpretation of the bibles genesis story is wrong. Creationists now say things like "day means age" or "god made the universe by setting it up and making life unfold", but that is a cop-out. This is why most Christians accept it as a myth or at best a metaphor.

yea, and you said that in reply to a guy that has said repeatedly from the beginning that the creation story shouldn't be taken by its literal english translation. That doesn't mean that it cannot be accepted as true in the original hebrew version.

So, once again, what is your point? Your banana/elephant statement makes no sense to me in this context. I offered you an opportunity to clarifyand you responded with some petty accusations of using "flowery words". But given your posting history, I don't know why I expected any better.
[/quote]
The point is that a creationist is someone who believes in the creation story/myth. It doesn't mean it is someone who believes in the literal english translation of it. There is nothing wrong with being a creationist like MarkS and believing more in the original written word of the text rather than a less than accurate translation. Your argument against his beliefs are a appeal to the masses fallacy, which is the same fallacy highlighted by my, "If everyone starts calling a banana an elephant..." metaphor.

But sure, resort to ad homonym attacks to make you feel like your argument is justified. Run into the thread yelling about how close minded creationists are without taking the time to actually understand what a sensible creationist has written about their beliefs. I for one am glad you are frustrated to the point of leaving, as close minded people on any side of religious discussion result in it going nowhere.

If there is a god he's an asshole. If you had the power to do anything and loved everyone wouldn't you just make everyone happy all the time?

How would you make everyone happy without violating free will or making other people upset? How would you balance who gets to be most happy or less happy? Would you be truly happy if you knew you had no control over your life?

It is best to look at God as a parent. Parents love their children, but we've all seen what can happen when parents try to make their children happy all the time.

1[sup]st[/sup] day he made light (hmm wonder what a big bang is?)

Why don't you find out what it is?

2[sup]nd[/sup] day he made skies Hmmm the forming of the atmospheres of the planets? 3[sup]rd[/sup] day water (last I checked water needs atmosphere and the planet was coverd in water mostly) Day 4 he makes in the firmament and makes two great lights (stars take longer to form then planets so a few hundred thousand years later or so seems about right) Now the moon is not a planet or a star How ever the two great lights are not named we assume they are the moon and sun but no way of knowing Also if the sun just formed he must not being used earths days since they have yet to be made in day 1-3)[/quote]The sun formed before the earth, this should be basic science.

6[sup]th[/sup] day he makes land and land animals, among them are humans (or monkeys who will become humans, notice they are never described) [/quote]What day did he create the straw men?<BR>

It is best to look at God as a parent. Parents love their children, but we've all seen what can happen when parents try to make their children happy all the time.

We've also seen what happens when parents abuse or kill their children, God is no different in that regard.

[quote name='monkey8751' timestamp='1300279409' post='4786476']
If there is a god he's an asshole. If you had the power to do anything and loved everyone wouldn't you just make everyone happy all the time?

How would you make everyone happy without violating free will or making other people upset? How would you balance who gets to be most happy or less happy? Would you be truly happy if you knew you had no control over your life?

It is best to look at God as a parent. Parents love their children, but we've all seen what can happen when parents try to make their children happy all the time.
[/quote]

Ok God is a shitty parent then. Parents who love their children don't let them suffer or starve or kill each other. You could ask any parent in Japan right now that lost a child in the earthquake if they had the power to stop the earthquake would they have and I guarantee they will say yes. God has the power to create a universe but can't stop an earthquake? If you're this supreme perfect being why create a world that has earthquakes in the first place.

Really if you're an all powerful being that has always existed why create humans? Why would you create a creature that is lesser than you and give it feelings and urges and then tell it if it doesn't keep those feelings and urges under control then they will suffer for eternity. But on the other hand if you worship me and kiss my ass you can go to heaven. It's like a game. If a human did that to other humans they would be called a psychopath.

Seems like a waste of time to worship something that might not exist or if it does exist there's a lot of evidence that shows it really doesn't care.