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AndyHarglesis

Really important question I could use help on with game development.

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AndyHarglesis    202
I was wondering if it's possible to create a game like this with DirectX 9, C++ and that's it. Here is a clip of the game as an example:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9IvN--ZDAY[/media]


By "create" I mean from scratch, writing the engine, modelling the low-poly characters, animations, sounds, music, etc. I know it will take at least 3 years to do it all...

But is it really possible?

And by create I mean re-create as in making it EXACTLY the way it is shown in the video, so watch the video carefully and tell me if it's possible, please.

Thanks in advance!

NOTE: DirectX 9 and C++ ONLY! Nothing else, except the modelling programs, etc. Can it be DONE is the question, and be exactly the same as shown, character wise, camera movement, animation display. Can DirectX 9 really handle things that efficiently?

And an answer like "Yes, ANYTHING'S POSSIBLE!" won't help. I would like some elaborating on the details, preferably.

Thanks though, in advance.

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Ravyne    14300
[color="#C0C0C0"]You know that's a [i]playstation [/i]game right? Yes, the first one.

As seemingly uselesss as the "Yes, anything is possible" answer is -- it also happens to be the precise answer to the question you've asked. In fact, they got by on the original playstation with much. much less than even the worst Direct3D 9-level card would allow you to do. The playstation architecture is entirely unique and built for games, of course, but it was a system with a 32bit processor running less than 40 Mhz, had 4 megabytes of RAM, and a GPU that wasn't even capable of perspective-correct texturing.

FF7 was released on the PC also, minimum specs were (for a fairly sloppy port, and accounting for additional layers of abstraction (OS, 3D API):
[/color][list][*][font="arial"][size="2"][color="#C0C0C0"]Windows 95 compatible system[/color][/size][/font][*][font="arial"][size="2"][color="#C0C0C0"]DirectX 5.0[/color][/size][/font][*][font="arial"][size="2"][color="#C0C0C0"]Intel Pentium 133 (recommended Pentium 200)[/color][/size][/font][*][font="arial"][size="2"][color="#C0C0C0"]4 megs Video Card (8 megs 3D accelerator recommended)[/color][/size][/font][*][font="arial"][size="2"][color="#C0C0C0"]32 megs of RAM[/color][/size][/font][*][font="arial"][size="2"][color="#C0C0C0"]4x CD-ROM[/color][/size][/font][*][font="arial"][size="2"][color="#C0C0C0"]DirectX 5.0 compatible sound card (AWE64 or XG-MIDI compatible recommended)[/color][/size][/font][/list][color="#C0C0C0"]
[font="arial"][size="2"]So, there you have it, I guess. Direct3D 9 is overkill, Direct3D 5 is all you [i]really [/i]need.[/size][/font]
[font="arial"] [/font]
[font="arial"] [/font]
[font="arial"][size="2"]If the question you really meant to ask was "How would I recreate these animations, effects and visuals in a modern way using Direct3D 9?" then I suggest you do some research into typical modern techniques, and post appropriate follow-up questions to the appropriate forums here.[/size][/font][/color]

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Hodgman    51234
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303176343' post='4800120']
By "create" I mean from scratch, writing the engine, modelling the low-poly characters, animations, sounds, music, etc. [/quote]Well the modelling, animation, sound, music, etc... will all be done in other DCC tools (modelling programs, etc).[quote]I know it will take at least 3 years to do it all...But is it really possible?[/quote]How do you have a 3 year time-line but not have the feasibility down? Is that 3 years with a 20 man team, or 3 man-years? What's the distribution of those man-hours between art and programming?[quote]NOTE: DirectX 9 and C++ ONLY! Nothing else, except the modelling programs, etc. Can it be DONE is the question, and be exactly the same as shown, character wise, camera movement, animation display. Can DirectX 9 really handle things that efficiently?[/quote]DirectX 9 is just the layer we use to talk to the hardware; almost every PC game engine is built on top of DirectX. [b]Every Xbox game[/b] is built on top of DirectX, so yes, it's efficient enough.

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SimonForsman    7642
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303176343' post='4800120']
I was wondering if it's possible to create a game like this with DirectX 9, C++ and that's it. Here is a clip of the game as an example:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9IvN--ZDAY[/media]


By "create" I mean from scratch, writing the engine, modelling the low-poly characters, animations, sounds, music, etc. I know it will take at least 3 years to do it all...

But is it really possible?

And by create I mean re-create as in making it EXACTLY the way it is shown in the video, so watch the video carefully and tell me if it's possible, please.

Thanks in advance!

NOTE: DirectX 9 and C++ ONLY! Nothing else, except the modelling programs, etc. Can it be DONE is the question, and be exactly the same as shown, character wise, camera movement, animation display. Can DirectX 9 really handle things that efficiently?

And an answer like "Yes, ANYTHING'S POSSIBLE!" won't help. I would like some elaborating on the details, preferably.

Thanks though, in advance.
[/quote]

Ofcourse it can be done, graphics wise there really isn't anything you can't do with DX9, Some more advanced effects might require multiple rendering passes or that data is processed on the cpu but they can be done, The game in question FF7 was ported to the PC using DirectX 5.

Recreating any game exactly is illegal without permission from the copyright holder though and getting things to be identical is always hard.

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AndyHarglesis    202
[quote name='SimonForsman' timestamp='1303177678' post='4800133']
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303176343' post='4800120']
I was wondering if it's possible to create a game like this with DirectX 9, C++ and that's it. Here is a clip of the game as an example:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9IvN--ZDAY[/media]


By "create" I mean from scratch, writing the engine, modelling the low-poly characters, animations, sounds, music, etc. I know it will take at least 3 years to do it all...

But is it really possible?

And by create I mean re-create as in making it EXACTLY the way it is shown in the video, so watch the video carefully and tell me if it's possible, please.

Thanks in advance!

NOTE: DirectX 9 and C++ ONLY! Nothing else, except the modelling programs, etc. Can it be DONE is the question, and be exactly the same as shown, character wise, camera movement, animation display. Can DirectX 9 really handle things that efficiently?

And an answer like "Yes, ANYTHING'S POSSIBLE!" won't help. I would like some elaborating on the details, preferably.

Thanks though, in advance.
[/quote]

Ofcourse it can be done, graphics wise there really isn't anything you can't do with DX9, Some more advanced effects might require multiple rendering passes or that data is processed on the cpu but they can be done, The game in question FF7 was ported to the PC using DirectX 5.

Recreating any game exactly is illegal without permission from the copyright holder though and getting things to be identical is always hard.
[/quote]


Not for distribution purposes I am doing it. Also, I need to know how I can simulate older-style DirectX 5 graphics, etc. in DirectX 9 so it will resemble the exact replica of FF7, no enhancements at all. Is THAT possible? How could you get a newer version of DirectX to act seemingly "old", like DirectX in the older days?

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SimonForsman    7642
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303179357' post='4800137']
[quote name='SimonForsman' timestamp='1303177678' post='4800133']
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303176343' post='4800120']
I was wondering if it's possible to create a game like this with DirectX 9, C++ and that's it. Here is a clip of the game as an example:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9IvN--ZDAY[/media]


By "create" I mean from scratch, writing the engine, modelling the low-poly characters, animations, sounds, music, etc. I know it will take at least 3 years to do it all...

But is it really possible?

And by create I mean re-create as in making it EXACTLY the way it is shown in the video, so watch the video carefully and tell me if it's possible, please.

Thanks in advance!

NOTE: DirectX 9 and C++ ONLY! Nothing else, except the modelling programs, etc. Can it be DONE is the question, and be exactly the same as shown, character wise, camera movement, animation display. Can DirectX 9 really handle things that efficiently?

And an answer like "Yes, ANYTHING'S POSSIBLE!" won't help. I would like some elaborating on the details, preferably.

Thanks though, in advance.
[/quote]

Ofcourse it can be done, graphics wise there really isn't anything you can't do with DX9, Some more advanced effects might require multiple rendering passes or that data is processed on the cpu but they can be done, The game in question FF7 was ported to the PC using DirectX 5.

Recreating any game exactly is illegal without permission from the copyright holder though and getting things to be identical is always hard.
[/quote]


Not for distribution purposes I am doing it. Also, I need to know how I can simulate older-style DirectX 5 graphics, etc. in DirectX 9 so it will resemble the exact replica of FF7, no enhancements at all. Is THAT possible? How could you get a newer version of DirectX to act seemingly "old", like DirectX in the older days?

[/quote]

Thats really not an issue, DirectX itself has no impact on the quality of the graphics(The hardware features exposed by newer DX versions allow you to certain things in a far more efficient manner which in turn allows you to increase the quality but given a fast enough system you could get the exact same quality with an older API (The things the API doesn't let you do on the GPU you can always do on the CPU))), To make a game look old i'd start by using low resolution texture and models and a fairly simple texture filtering model (I'm guessing FF7 uses linear filtering which was fairly common at that time), Then its simply a case of not using any advanced shader effects (in the DX5 days almost everything was done using blending, multiple render passes and the stencil buffer, all of which are available in DX9 aswell (I'd recommend that you use shaders anyway though, they don't magically change the way things look but lets you do alot more in a single render pass and cuts out alot of the unnecessary passing of data back and forth between cpu and gpu))

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AndyHarglesis    202
[quote name='SimonForsman' timestamp='1303180396' post='4800143']
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303179357' post='4800137']
[quote name='SimonForsman' timestamp='1303177678' post='4800133']
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303176343' post='4800120']
I was wondering if it's possible to create a game like this with DirectX 9, C++ and that's it. Here is a clip of the game as an example:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9IvN--ZDAY[/media]


By "create" I mean from scratch, writing the engine, modelling the low-poly characters, animations, sounds, music, etc. I know it will take at least 3 years to do it all...

But is it really possible?

And by create I mean re-create as in making it EXACTLY the way it is shown in the video, so watch the video carefully and tell me if it's possible, please.

Thanks in advance!

NOTE: DirectX 9 and C++ ONLY! Nothing else, except the modelling programs, etc. Can it be DONE is the question, and be exactly the same as shown, character wise, camera movement, animation display. Can DirectX 9 really handle things that efficiently?

And an answer like "Yes, ANYTHING'S POSSIBLE!" won't help. I would like some elaborating on the details, preferably.

Thanks though, in advance.
[/quote]

Ofcourse it can be done, graphics wise there really isn't anything you can't do with DX9, Some more advanced effects might require multiple rendering passes or that data is processed on the cpu but they can be done, The game in question FF7 was ported to the PC using DirectX 5.

Recreating any game exactly is illegal without permission from the copyright holder though and getting things to be identical is always hard.
[/quote]


Not for distribution purposes I am doing it. Also, I need to know how I can simulate older-style DirectX 5 graphics, etc. in DirectX 9 so it will resemble the exact replica of FF7, no enhancements at all. Is THAT possible? How could you get a newer version of DirectX to act seemingly "old", like DirectX in the older days?

[/quote]

Thats really not an issue, DirectX itself has no impact on the quality of the graphics(The hardware features exposed by newer DX versions allow you to certain things in a far more efficient manner which in turn allows you to increase the quality but given a fast enough system you could get the exact same quality with an older API (The things the API doesn't let you do on the GPU you can always do on the CPU))), To make a game look old i'd start by using low resolution texture and models and a fairly simple texture filtering model (I'm guessing FF7 uses linear filtering which was fairly common at that time), Then its simply a case of not using any advanced shader effects (in the DX5 days almost everything was done using blending, multiple render passes and the stencil buffer, all of which are available in DX9 aswell (I'd recommend that you use shaders anyway though, they don't magically change the way things look but lets you do alot more in a single render pass and cuts out alot of the unnecessary passing of data back and forth between cpu and gpu))
[/quote]

I appreciate all the answers, but one more question:

Like in the video I posted, if you didn't see it you could watch again... I want to know how to get such a smoothly simulated look of a command window on the bottom of the screen where most of the battle control takes place. Any ideas on how to draw that, identical to the command bar in FF7? I'm kind of confused there...

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SimonForsman    7642
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303189550' post='4800196']
[quote name='SimonForsman' timestamp='1303180396' post='4800143']
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303179357' post='4800137']
[quote name='SimonForsman' timestamp='1303177678' post='4800133']
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303176343' post='4800120']
I was wondering if it's possible to create a game like this with DirectX 9, C++ and that's it. Here is a clip of the game as an example:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9IvN--ZDAY[/media]


By "create" I mean from scratch, writing the engine, modelling the low-poly characters, animations, sounds, music, etc. I know it will take at least 3 years to do it all...

But is it really possible?

And by create I mean re-create as in making it EXACTLY the way it is shown in the video, so watch the video carefully and tell me if it's possible, please.

Thanks in advance!

NOTE: DirectX 9 and C++ ONLY! Nothing else, except the modelling programs, etc. Can it be DONE is the question, and be exactly the same as shown, character wise, camera movement, animation display. Can DirectX 9 really handle things that efficiently?

And an answer like "Yes, ANYTHING'S POSSIBLE!" won't help. I would like some elaborating on the details, preferably.

Thanks though, in advance.
[/quote]

Ofcourse it can be done, graphics wise there really isn't anything you can't do with DX9, Some more advanced effects might require multiple rendering passes or that data is processed on the cpu but they can be done, The game in question FF7 was ported to the PC using DirectX 5.

Recreating any game exactly is illegal without permission from the copyright holder though and getting things to be identical is always hard.
[/quote]


Not for distribution purposes I am doing it. Also, I need to know how I can simulate older-style DirectX 5 graphics, etc. in DirectX 9 so it will resemble the exact replica of FF7, no enhancements at all. Is THAT possible? How could you get a newer version of DirectX to act seemingly "old", like DirectX in the older days?

[/quote]

Thats really not an issue, DirectX itself has no impact on the quality of the graphics(The hardware features exposed by newer DX versions allow you to certain things in a far more efficient manner which in turn allows you to increase the quality but given a fast enough system you could get the exact same quality with an older API (The things the API doesn't let you do on the GPU you can always do on the CPU))), To make a game look old i'd start by using low resolution texture and models and a fairly simple texture filtering model (I'm guessing FF7 uses linear filtering which was fairly common at that time), Then its simply a case of not using any advanced shader effects (in the DX5 days almost everything was done using blending, multiple render passes and the stencil buffer, all of which are available in DX9 aswell (I'd recommend that you use shaders anyway though, they don't magically change the way things look but lets you do alot more in a single render pass and cuts out alot of the unnecessary passing of data back and forth between cpu and gpu))
[/quote]

I appreciate all the answers, but one more question:

Like in the video I posted, if you didn't see it you could watch again... I want to know how to get such a smoothly simulated look of a command window on the bottom of the screen where most of the battle control takes place. Any ideas on how to draw that, identical to the command bar in FF7? I'm kind of confused there...
[/quote]

Textured quads are all you need for that, just like for any other GUI really. (you can use a simple scissor test to make scrolling etc easy) (that way you can just move a quad with text up to scroll down and vice versa).

Writing a complete GUI system that is easy to extend and integrate with the rest of the game engine is fairly hard, but the FF7 GUI is almost ridicilusly simple (If you are recreating a game like FF7 the GUI will be the least of your problems)

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MeshGearFox    158
[quote name='SimonForsman' timestamp='1303228101' post='4800396']
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303189550' post='4800196']
[quote name='SimonForsman' timestamp='1303180396' post='4800143']
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303179357' post='4800137']
[quote name='SimonForsman' timestamp='1303177678' post='4800133']
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303176343' post='4800120']
I was wondering if it's possible to create a game like this with DirectX 9, C++ and that's it. Here is a clip of the game as an example:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9IvN--ZDAY[/media]


By "create" I mean from scratch, writing the engine, modelling the low-poly characters, animations, sounds, music, etc. I know it will take at least 3 years to do it all...

But is it really possible?

And by create I mean re-create as in making it EXACTLY the way it is shown in the video, so watch the video carefully and tell me if it's possible, please.

Thanks in advance!

NOTE: DirectX 9 and C++ ONLY! Nothing else, except the modelling programs, etc. Can it be DONE is the question, and be exactly the same as shown, character wise, camera movement, animation display. Can DirectX 9 really handle things that efficiently?

And an answer like "Yes, ANYTHING'S POSSIBLE!" won't help. I would like some elaborating on the details, preferably.

Thanks though, in advance.
[/quote]

Ofcourse it can be done, graphics wise there really isn't anything you can't do with DX9, Some more advanced effects might require multiple rendering passes or that data is processed on the cpu but they can be done, The game in question FF7 was ported to the PC using DirectX 5.

Recreating any game exactly is illegal without permission from the copyright holder though and getting things to be identical is always hard.
[/quote]


Not for distribution purposes I am doing it. Also, I need to know how I can simulate older-style DirectX 5 graphics, etc. in DirectX 9 so it will resemble the exact replica of FF7, no enhancements at all. Is THAT possible? How could you get a newer version of DirectX to act seemingly "old", like DirectX in the older days?

[/quote]

Thats really not an issue, DirectX itself has no impact on the quality of the graphics(The hardware features exposed by newer DX versions allow you to certain things in a far more efficient manner which in turn allows you to increase the quality but given a fast enough system you could get the exact same quality with an older API (The things the API doesn't let you do on the GPU you can always do on the CPU))), To make a game look old i'd start by using low resolution texture and models and a fairly simple texture filtering model (I'm guessing FF7 uses linear filtering which was fairly common at that time), Then its simply a case of not using any advanced shader effects (in the DX5 days almost everything was done using blending, multiple render passes and the stencil buffer, all of which are available in DX9 aswell (I'd recommend that you use shaders anyway though, they don't magically change the way things look but lets you do alot more in a single render pass and cuts out alot of the unnecessary passing of data back and forth between cpu and gpu))
[/quote]

I appreciate all the answers, but one more question:

Like in the video I posted, if you didn't see it you could watch again... I want to know how to get such a smoothly simulated look of a command window on the bottom of the screen where most of the battle control takes place. Any ideas on how to draw that, identical to the command bar in FF7? I'm kind of confused there...
[/quote]

Textured quads are all you need for that, just like for any other GUI really. (you can use a simple scissor test to make scrolling etc easy) (that way you can just move a quad with text up to scroll down and vice versa).

Writing a complete GUI system that is easy to extend and integrate with the rest of the game engine is fairly hard, but the FF7 GUI is almost ridicilusly simple (If you are recreating a game like FF7 the GUI will be the least of your problems)
[/quote]

Quote nesting is neat!


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AndyHarglesis    202
[quote name='SimonForsman' timestamp='1303228101' post='4800396']
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303189550' post='4800196']
[quote name='SimonForsman' timestamp='1303180396' post='4800143']
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303179357' post='4800137']
[quote name='SimonForsman' timestamp='1303177678' post='4800133']
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303176343' post='4800120']
I was wondering if it's possible to create a game like this with DirectX 9, C++ and that's it. Here is a clip of the game as an example:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9IvN--ZDAY[/media]


By "create" I mean from scratch, writing the engine, modelling the low-poly characters, animations, sounds, music, etc. I know it will take at least 3 years to do it all...

But is it really possible?

And by create I mean re-create as in making it EXACTLY the way it is shown in the video, so watch the video carefully and tell me if it's possible, please.

Thanks in advance!

NOTE: DirectX 9 and C++ ONLY! Nothing else, except the modelling programs, etc. Can it be DONE is the question, and be exactly the same as shown, character wise, camera movement, animation display. Can DirectX 9 really handle things that efficiently?

And an answer like "Yes, ANYTHING'S POSSIBLE!" won't help. I would like some elaborating on the details, preferably.

Thanks though, in advance.
[/quote]

Ofcourse it can be done, graphics wise there really isn't anything you can't do with DX9, Some more advanced effects might require multiple rendering passes or that data is processed on the cpu but they can be done, The game in question FF7 was ported to the PC using DirectX 5.

Recreating any game exactly is illegal without permission from the copyright holder though and getting things to be identical is always hard.
[/quote]


Not for distribution purposes I am doing it. Also, I need to know how I can simulate older-style DirectX 5 graphics, etc. in DirectX 9 so it will resemble the exact replica of FF7, no enhancements at all. Is THAT possible? How could you get a newer version of DirectX to act seemingly "old", like DirectX in the older days?

[/quote]

Thats really not an issue, DirectX itself has no impact on the quality of the graphics(The hardware features exposed by newer DX versions allow you to certain things in a far more efficient manner which in turn allows you to increase the quality but given a fast enough system you could get the exact same quality with an older API (The things the API doesn't let you do on the GPU you can always do on the CPU))), To make a game look old i'd start by using low resolution texture and models and a fairly simple texture filtering model (I'm guessing FF7 uses linear filtering which was fairly common at that time), Then its simply a case of not using any advanced shader effects (in the DX5 days almost everything was done using blending, multiple render passes and the stencil buffer, all of which are available in DX9 aswell (I'd recommend that you use shaders anyway though, they don't magically change the way things look but lets you do alot more in a single render pass and cuts out alot of the unnecessary passing of data back and forth between cpu and gpu))
[/quote]

I appreciate all the answers, but one more question:

Like in the video I posted, if you didn't see it you could watch again... I want to know how to get such a smoothly simulated look of a command window on the bottom of the screen where most of the battle control takes place. Any ideas on how to draw that, identical to the command bar in FF7? I'm kind of confused there...
[/quote]

Textured quads are all you need for that, just like for any other GUI really. (you can use a simple scissor test to make scrolling etc easy) (that way you can just move a quad with text up to scroll down and vice versa).

Writing a complete GUI system that is easy to extend and integrate with the rest of the game engine is fairly hard, but the FF7 GUI is almost ridicilusly simple (If you are recreating a game like FF7 the GUI will be the least of your problems)
[/quote]


Okay, so what would be the best method to make a GUI like FF7s? And what do you think would be the hardest part about programming Final Fantasy 7?

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osmanb    2082
Like almost any other game, the hardest part wouldn't actually be programming. It would be the time spent modeling, rigging and animating all of the models in the game, as well as painting all the textures.

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AndyHarglesis    202
[quote name='osmanb' timestamp='1303687378' post='4802457']
Like almost any other game, the hardest part wouldn't actually be programming. It would be the time spent modeling, rigging and animating all of the models in the game, as well as painting all the textures.
[/quote]

I find modelling, if done adequately on a good modelling program, to be easier than programming. In fact I'll go on a rant and say that it's a joke to say programming from scratch is easier than just modelling, which is almost drag and drop, whereas programming is creating EVERYTHING your game must run on and perform with from SCRATCH.

Plus, programming gets easily difficult and can take hours on end to clear hundreds of possible errors, being non-existing in modelling programs in the same context.

It takes a C++ snake game 300 lines of code with no GUI. Imagine FF7, probably over 100,000 lines of raw code.

Saying that modelling and making textures is easier than programming the whole ENTIRE game from nothing is seriously not plausible at all. I have trouble believing you're serious.

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osmanb    2082
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303712407' post='4802559']
[quote name='osmanb' timestamp='1303687378' post='4802457']
Like almost any other game, the hardest part wouldn't actually be programming. It would be the time spent modeling, rigging and animating all of the models in the game, as well as painting all the textures.
[/quote]

I find modelling, if done adequately on a good modelling program, to be easier than programming. In fact I'll go on a rant and say that it's a joke to say programming from scratch is easier than just modelling, which is almost drag and drop, whereas programming is creating EVERYTHING your game must run on and perform with from SCRATCH.

Plus, programming gets easily difficult and can take hours on end to clear hundreds of possible errors, being non-existing in modelling programs in the same context.

It takes a C++ snake game 300 lines of code with no GUI. Imagine FF7, probably over 100,000 lines of raw code.

Saying that modelling and making textures is easier than programming the whole ENTIRE game from nothing is seriously not plausible at all. I have trouble believing you're serious.
[/quote]

It obviously depends on your skillset. If you're a good modeler, you can model faster than you can write code. Programming also has more hurdles, but I'm simply talking about the amount of total effort that will be spent during production. If you look at the budget of most large games (console, PC, etc...), far more man-hours are spent producing content (assets) than writing code.

Also, I never worked on PSX, but I think your 100k LoC estimate is probably pretty close. However (and this is critical), sensible programmers don't write everything themselves. If you choose to take advantage of modern libraries, you can probably cut that number way down. Many of these libraries weren't options when working on PSX (FMOD, Bullet, etc...). I'm not suggesting making a more modern game, either - just using modern tools to save yourself the trouble of reinventing the wheel.

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AndyHarglesis    202
[quote name='osmanb' timestamp='1303738471' post='4802651']
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303712407' post='4802559']
[quote name='osmanb' timestamp='1303687378' post='4802457']
Like almost any other game, the hardest part wouldn't actually be programming. It would be the time spent modeling, rigging and animating all of the models in the game, as well as painting all the textures.
[/quote]

I find modelling, if done adequately on a good modelling program, to be easier than programming. In fact I'll go on a rant and say that it's a joke to say programming from scratch is easier than just modelling, which is almost drag and drop, whereas programming is creating EVERYTHING your game must run on and perform with from SCRATCH.

Plus, programming gets easily difficult and can take hours on end to clear hundreds of possible errors, being non-existing in modelling programs in the same context.

It takes a C++ snake game 300 lines of code with no GUI. Imagine FF7, probably over 100,000 lines of raw code.

Saying that modelling and making textures is easier than programming the whole ENTIRE game from nothing is seriously not plausible at all. I have trouble believing you're serious.
[/quote]

It obviously depends on your skillset. If you're a good modeler, you can model faster than you can write code. Programming also has more hurdles, but I'm simply talking about the amount of total effort that will be spent during production. If you look at the budget of most large games (console, PC, etc...), far more man-hours are spent producing content (assets) than writing code.

Also, I never worked on PSX, but I think your 100k LoC estimate is probably pretty close. However (and this is critical), sensible programmers don't write everything themselves. If you choose to take advantage of modern libraries, you can probably cut that number way down. Many of these libraries weren't options when working on PSX (FMOD, Bullet, etc...). I'm not suggesting making a more modern game, either - just using modern tools to save yourself the trouble of reinventing the wheel.
[/quote]

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by "reinventing the wheel". Also, libraries? C and DirectX(or C++)should be enough for the development languages/APIs.

Also, if you don't mind, which modelling programs do you think were used in the development of FF7 and do they still exist now(just to get as exact to the 1997 game as possible)?

And if anyone has any input as to exactly which API for graphics and programming language was used for the development of FF7 would be HIGHLY appreciated.

EDIT: I'm also pretty strained by DirectX(difficulty). Perhaps there's a closely equivalent API with the same low-level capabilities to handle hardware that's a bit better oriented in its use?

Plus, I still can't manage to load .x files using DirectX. It keeps failing.

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Khaiy    2148
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303760336' post='4802785']
I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by "reinventing the wheel". Also, libraries? C and DirectX(or C++)should be enough for the development languages/APIs.

Also, if you don't mind, which modelling programs do you think were used in the development of FF7 and do they still exist now(just to get as exact to the 1997 game as possible)?

And if anyone has any input as to exactly which API for graphics and programming language was used for the development of FF7 would be HIGHLY appreciated.

EDIT: I'm also pretty strained by DirectX(difficulty). Perhaps there's a closely equivalent API with the same low-level capabilities to handle hardware that's a bit better oriented in its use?

Plus, I still can't manage to load .x files using DirectX. It keeps failing.
[/quote]

Re-inventing the wheel is spending time and effort developing a solution to a problem for which there already exists a solution you can use. What osman is saying is that there are libraries and tools that exist now which didn't exist during development of FF7 which you can use to achieve the same effects with less work on your part.

C/C++ and DirectX are indeed enough to do the job you're describing. But in using those and those alone you will be forced to do a massive amount of work which could be avoided using other libraries. Libraries will have bits of code to do things that you want to do, and often will be able to do those things far more efficiently than anything you code up yourself would. The bare minimum of tools may be enough to feasibly finish the project without being enough for you personally to complete the project.

As for a "low level API better oriented in its use", I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "better oriented". There's OpenGL, which is similarly low-level, but I don't know that it's any easier than DirectX. You can look at something like XNA, which handles the lowest-level stuff for you and so abstracts away a lot of the complexity.

The rest, like specifics on what tools were used to make FF7, I don't know enough to help you with. But I am wondering, why are you so focused on making a 1997 level game using only 1997 level tools? You could make a game exactly like FF7 much more easily using modern tools, but pretending that you have the hardware limitations of a Sony Playstation. Using older technology won't make your project more similar to FF7 than any other approach, it will just make the process longer and more tedious. For example, [i}any[/i] modelling program will let you make a low-poly count model and animate it using relatively few frames (as compared with what can be produced using modern technology). You don't need to hunt down a program used a decade and a half ago, where that was the very best it could do, just to get similar images.

You could use the exact tools used in development of FF7 (assuming they're all still available and not deprecated/abandoned) in the same way that you could build a log cabin using nothing but a sharp edged rock and a forest. People have done it, but unless you really want to have their particular experience (as opposed to finishing a comparable product or developing skills that are of value today), why would you?

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AndyHarglesis    202
[quote name='Khaiy' timestamp='1303772131' post='4802855']
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303760336' post='4802785']
I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by "reinventing the wheel". Also, libraries? C and DirectX(or C++)should be enough for the development languages/APIs.

Also, if you don't mind, which modelling programs do you think were used in the development of FF7 and do they still exist now(just to get as exact to the 1997 game as possible)?

And if anyone has any input as to exactly which API for graphics and programming language was used for the development of FF7 would be HIGHLY appreciated.

EDIT: I'm also pretty strained by DirectX(difficulty). Perhaps there's a closely equivalent API with the same low-level capabilities to handle hardware that's a bit better oriented in its use?

Plus, I still can't manage to load .x files using DirectX. It keeps failing.
[/quote]

Re-inventing the wheel is spending time and effort developing a solution to a problem for which there already exists a solution you can use. What osman is saying is that there are libraries and tools that exist now which didn't exist during development of FF7 which you can use to achieve the same effects with less work on your part.

C/C++ and DirectX are indeed enough to do the job you're describing. But in using those and those alone you will be forced to do a massive amount of work which could be avoided using other libraries. Libraries will have bits of code to do things that you want to do, and often will be able to do those things far more efficiently than anything you code up yourself would. The bare minimum of tools may be enough to feasibly finish the project without being enough for you personally to complete the project.

As for a "low level API better oriented in its use", I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "better oriented". There's OpenGL, which is similarly low-level, but I don't know that it's any easier than DirectX. You can look at something like XNA, which handles the lowest-level stuff for you and so abstracts away a lot of the complexity.

The rest, like specifics on what tools were used to make FF7, I don't know enough to help you with. But I am wondering, why are you so focused on making a 1997 level game using only 1997 level tools? You could make a game exactly like FF7 much more easily using modern tools, but pretending that you have the hardware limitations of a Sony Playstation. Using older technology won't make your project more similar to FF7 than any other approach, it will just make the process longer and more tedious. For example, [i}any[/i] modelling program will let you make a low-poly count model and animate it using relatively few frames (as compared with what can be produced using modern technology). You don't need to hunt down a program used a decade and a half ago, where that was the very best it could do, just to get similar images.

You could use the exact tools used in development of FF7 (assuming they're all still available and not deprecated/abandoned) in the same way that you could build a log cabin using nothing but a sharp edged rock and a forest. People have done it, but unless you really want to have their particular experience (as opposed to finishing a comparable product or developing skills that are of value today), why would you?
[/quote]

That sounds a little misleading though... Libraries that'll work out problems for you? How are you actually programming then if all these "libraries" are going to complete a lot of the work for you? That would feel as if you're doing work that's already been arranged for you perfectly and even completed somewhat. I find that appalling because in the good old days the work was harder but you felt like you were actually doing the "work", you know? Even though nowadays there's some workarounds that may be more logical, it just doesn't have the same "feel" of creating a game yourself. Sure, "re-inventing the wheel" may be harder but it's always going to be more appreciated in the end. That's like saying someone building a car out of pre-assorted parts is more appreciated than someone who builds the same result of a car from scratch, no pre-assorted parts and starts from the ground up. The one who started from the ground up will get the feel of actually making the car and will feel most completed at the end, even if harder by a long shot. Plus, to make a game exactly like FF7 it'd be close to impossible without tons of workarounds to make the game flow and logic much slower, low-poly and no tessellation at all plus stencil buffers and low-quality graphics. It'll seem almost like DirectX 9 is too powerful, in some ways, without some amazing knowledge on how to re-create the "past"....

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teutonicus    612
Hidden
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303776602' post='4802870']It'll seem almost like DirectX 9 is too powerful, in some ways, without some amazing knowledge on how to re-create the "past"....
[/quote]

Suggest actually reading the replies in this thread (which are coming from experienced programmers who know how to do exactly what you want to do) and putting in the work to make your game rather than wasting time arguing on a forum.

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CRYP7IK    1327
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303776602' post='4802870']
That sounds a little misleading though... Libraries that'll work out problems for you?[/quote]

Yes. Not misleading at all unless you don't honour all the licences.

[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303776602' post='4802870']How are you actually programming then if all these "libraries" are going to complete a lot of the work for you?[/quote]

Programming game play is harder than you think, especially crazy FF7 game play.

[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303776602' post='4802870']That would feel as if you're doing work that's already been arranged for you perfectly and even completed somewhat. I find that appalling because in the good old days the work was harder but you felt like you were actually doing the "work", you know?[/quote]

I do understand, and I have to agree that it's good to do the 'work' and understand how things work under the hood. However unless you have a thirst of knowledge and not just want to make a game it's kind of a waste of time making a complete game engine yourself.

[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303776602' post='4802870']Even though nowadays there's some workarounds that may be more logical, it just doesn't have the same "feel" of creating a game yourself. Sure, "re-inventing the wheel" may be harder but it's always going to be more appreciated in the end. That's like saying someone building a car out of pre-assorted parts is more appreciated than someone who builds the same result of a car from scratch, no pre-assorted parts and starts from the ground up. The one who started from the ground up will get the feel of actually making the car and will feel most completed at the end, even if harder by a long shot.[/quote]

No-one would be able to tell if you made it in DX9\C++ compared to Unity3D except the fact that one took 1/20th the time of the other. No one here cares whether or not you use libraries, just trying to suggest ways you can finish your goal quicker. Even if you just use the libraries to develop the game play you can remake your own later.

[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303776602' post='4802870']Plus, to make a game exactly like FF7 it'd be close to impossible without tons of workarounds to make the game flow and logic much slower, low-poly and no tessellation at all plus stencil buffers and low-quality graphics. It'll seem almost like DirectX 9 is too powerful, in some ways, without some amazing knowledge on how to re-create the "past"....[/quote]

Incorrect. That problem is easily fixed, delta time or frame limiting or both. DirectX doesn't really create the problem, really good GPUs do.

Final Fantasy 7 was developed from 1994-1997. Three years! They had five programmers on the team, alongside numerous asset creators. These were also professionals. Think about it and make your own judgement.

FYI: FF7 is my favourite game, with Sephiroth being my favourite character.

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Khaiy    2148
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303776602' post='4802870']
That sounds a little misleading though... Libraries that'll work out problems for you? How are you actually programming then if all these "libraries" are going to complete a lot of the work for you? That would feel as if you're doing work that's already been arranged for you perfectly and even completed somewhat. I find that appalling because in the good old days the work was harder but you felt like you were actually doing the "work", you know? Even though nowadays there's some workarounds that may be more logical, it just doesn't have the same "feel" of creating a game yourself. Sure, "re-inventing the wheel" may be harder but it's always going to be more appreciated in the end. That's like saying someone building a car out of pre-assorted parts is more appreciated than someone who builds the same result of a car from scratch, no pre-assorted parts and starts from the ground up. The one who started from the ground up will get the feel of actually making the car and will feel most completed at the end, even if harder by a long shot. Plus, to make a game exactly like FF7 it'd be close to impossible without tons of workarounds to make the game flow and logic much slower, low-poly and no tessellation at all plus stencil buffers and low-quality graphics. It'll seem almost like DirectX 9 is too powerful, in some ways, without some amazing knowledge on how to re-create the "past"....
[/quote]

The external libraries don't work out problems for you. They provide more powerful tools, tested and vetted, which allow you to do more things, do them better, and get them working more quickly. You don't mind using C++, even though it inherently handles certain aspects of programming for you. Libraries are no different. Do you feel like a slacker because you haven't coded your own programming language from nothing? I doubt it. DirectX itself is really just a set of libraries. You're having some issues with the difficulty of that-- and when DirectX was first released, programmers thought it was awesome, simplifying huge swaths of the game programming process. Would you be willing to dive into the much, [i]much[/i] more complicated task of manipulating the graphics hardware yourself, because you think that the DirectX libraries are making things [i]too easy[/i] for you, and taking away the feel of making a game, I mean [i]really[/i] making it?

As for working from scratch being more appreciated in the end, BS. The vast majority of people want to use and enjoy a product-- they don't care how it was made, or how hard it was to do. Some more discerning people might be able to notice the work that you've done, but there isn't a lot of respect to be earned by duplicating work that's been done 15 years ago. And don't worry about modern technology being too powerful. You can easily keep it from "running too fast", or whatever other issues you're imagining. It doesn't require tons of workarounds, anything of the sort. When you get better with DirectX (or XNA, or whatever), you'll see that that's the case.

From your above comment, and forgive me if this sounds harsh, you have [i]no idea[/i] how difficult it is to make a game. What's the largest program you've coded? I absolutely, pinky-promise, guarantee you that you will get the full "feel" of building a game by building a game, no matter how you go about it. The only thing you'll get from the approach you seem to be taking, assuming that you don't have a better reason for doing so than in your last post, is frustration and failure. You will [i]give up[/i] on completing this project, maybe on programming entirely, because it will take vastly longer than you seem to think, and be many orders of magnitude more difficult. It took a team of experienced workers [i]years[/i] to make FF7 using the same technology you're aiming to use-- and they weren't learning about graphics programming and game design and coding as they did it.

Ultimately, you're going to go about this however you choose, even if that's an incredibly difficult way. But a lot of people here are giving you the same advice, and suggesting that you use tools which are designed to be used for exactly what you're trying to do. You are clearly a fairly new programmer, and not terribly experienced. Given that, do you really think everyone else is wrong but you?

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jyk    2094
[quote name='AndyWonHarglesis' timestamp='1303776602' post='4802870']
That sounds a little misleading though...[/quote]
If you're just programming for yourself and/or to learn, you can do whatever you want. In just about any other context though, your analysis is wrong.

[quote]Libraries that'll work out problems for you? How are you actually programming then if all these "libraries" are going to complete a lot of the work for you?[/quote]
By that logic, the only way to 'actually program' would be (I guess) to build a processor yourself, design the instruction set yourself, and write everything in raw machine code (or something).

No matter what level you work at, there's going to be *some* work that's already been done for you. Otherwise, it'd be nearly impossible to produce anything, ever. Technology being what it is today, to get anything meaningful done, it's usually a requirement that one's work be built on the previous work of others, period.

[quote]I find that appalling because in the good old days the work was harder but you felt like you were actually doing the "work", you know?[/quote]
Almost all games are built using at least some existing technology (whether it's a licensed engine, a graphics API such as OpenGL or DirectX, or whatever). It may be that the way games are made has changed somewhat, but you have to remember that the games themselves have changed as well. Today's AAA game is the product of a large team working (in some cases) for some number of years, and that's *still* using existing technology. Creating everything from scratch just isn't practical anymore for projects of that scale (or for just about any project, arguably).

[quote]Sure, "re-inventing the wheel" may be harder but it's always going to be more appreciated in the end.[/quote]
By whom? The end user is unlikely to know or care how your game is implemented. If you're working for someone else, it's unlikely they'll 'appreciate' it if you spend a month implementing subsystem X when you could've just used library Y. And most people with experience will be more impressed by your ability to choose and utilize existing tools wisely than to spend great amounts of time re-implementing the equivalent functionality from scratch.

There are certainly cases where doing the kind of work you're talking about is important and/or appropriate, but 'always' more appreciated? No.

[quote]Plus, to make a game exactly like FF7 it'd be close to impossible without tons of workarounds to make the game flow and logic much slower, low-poly and no tessellation at all plus stencil buffers and low-quality graphics. It'll seem almost like DirectX 9 is too powerful, in some ways, without some amazing knowledge on how to re-create the "past"....
[/quote]
I'm not completely sure what you mean by all that, but the things you mentioned really shouldn't be issues. (For example, the 'speed' of game flow and logic is completely under your control, regardless of what technology you're using, more or less.)

It's clear you've got some strong opinions, but I'd suggest not getting too attached to them, and instead remaining flexible in your thinking. Developers learn and refine their views on things over their entire careers; if you're just getting started, your views on this sort of thing will likely change over time. Again, one of the nice things about programming for yourself is that you can do whatever interests you and that you enjoy. But practically speaking, using existing tools is not only common and recommended, it's absolutely necessary in many cases if you actually hope to get anything done.

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szecs    2990
[quote]Plus, to make a game exactly like FF7 it'd be close to impossible without tons of workarounds to make the game flow and logic much slower, low-poly and no tessellation at all plus stencil buffers and low-quality graphics.[/quote]

Limiting the speed of "game flow" and "logic" is a few lines of [i]low level[/i] code. Low-poly depends of how low-poly you model it. Don't make it high-poly, if you don't want. You don't have to use tessellation, if you don't want to.

It's pretty clear from your posts, that you have next to zero experience and knowledge of programming. So don't make strong statements, because this makes you a troll even if you don't intend to be one.

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Antheus    2409
The fact that ePSXe exists makes this thread moot. It's almost certainly written in C++ and uses supports different kinds of GPU acceleration as a fact.

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