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_orm_

Osama Bin Laden is Dead.

148 posts in this topic

There will be a lot of people who see this as a sort of closing of that particular chapter of history, though Obama said the War On Terror will continue. BBC reported earlier that the Taliban have threatened attacks on Pakistani agencies and the US, so nothing much has changed from this time yesterday. A member of AQ who was/is held at Guantanamo said they had a nuclear weapon hidden in Europe which would be detonated if OBL was ever killed, but nothing has happened yet so it's probably safe to either he was lying or, security services found and dealt with the problem sometime ago.

He was little more than a figure head/ fundraiser for AQ so, not much will change with him being dead, except some loons frothing at the mouth about it.

There will be many people who will think it's a conspiracy of some sort. They'll never believe it no matter how much proof is given.
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Do you really believe the circle of violence will end with a murder? Are you really so naive?

By celebrating the assassination, you have dropped to the level of the terrorists you are supposedly fighting. Whatever moral high ground you used to claim - that is lost now.

Enjoy your peaceful intermission until the next terrorist strike lands. Your policy has all but made that certain. Mission accomplished?
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[quote][color=#1C2837][size=2]By celebrating the assassination, you have dropped to the level of the terrorists you are supposedly fighting[/size][/color][/quote]

I'm not celebrating murder. I'm celebrating the loss of a man responsible for mass murder. Would you not have celebrated the demise of Hitler? Or Saddam Hussein, who was responsible for a genocide of his own? There is nothing wrong with being happy that an evil person who caused such inconceivable harm to the world is no longer in it.

And 'dropped to the level of the terrorists'. No, slaughtering hundreds or thousands of innocent people based on nothing but their nationality or their belief system would lower us to the level of terrorists. No matter how you may feel about the celebration of somebody's death, don't ever accuse people of sinking to the level of the terrorists. Don't equate a possibly slightly immoral expression of free speech with mass murder and genocide.
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By the by, does anyone have a link to anywhere that cites that OBL ever actually admitted to planning 9/11? The closest I can find is [u][url="http://classic-web.archive.org/web/20070613014620/http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=7403"]this[/url][/u] where he says that 9/11 sent the message that he'd been trying to send for years, and that the though of attacking american towers entered his mind in the 80's (prior to the 1993 WTC attacks). It's very vague...

It's "common knowledge" that he's the guy responsible, and the legality of the Afghanistan invasion rests on that knowledge, but I can't dig up a solid source for it. Anyone got a better source of this bit of common knowledge?
[quote name='Fox89' timestamp='1304336044' post='4805356']
Wasn't this also confirmed by Pakistan?[/quote]Pakistan did confirm his death... 5 years ago.
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[quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1304337640' post='4805371']
[quote name='Fox89' timestamp='1304336044' post='4805356']
Wasn't this also confirmed by Pakistan?[/quote]Pakistan did confirm his death... 5 years ago.
[/quote]

I was wrong anyway, according to the reports I'm seeing now the US were worried about information leaks in the Pakistani intelligence network so didn't inform anybody before the strike!
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[quote name='_orm_' timestamp='1304310459' post='4805277'][url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/02/osama-bin-laden-dead-obama"]http://www.guardian....aden-dead-obama[/url][/quote]

Any one else disturbed by the fact that even a time honoured newspaper like The Guardian can make such basic grammar mistakes as "None of the Americans [i]was[/i] killed"? (In case English is not your first language, it should be [i]were[/i] killed).
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[quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1304339160' post='4805377']
[quote name='Fox89' timestamp='1304337525' post='4805370']
No, slaughtering hundreds or thousands of innocent people based on nothing but their nationality or their belief system would lower us to the level of terrorists.[/quote]Does the vietnam war's 70% civilian casualty rate count, with it's many documented acts of genocide (2 million civilians)? Or the 2nd gulf war's 90% civilian casualty rate (400,000 civilians)?
Or the 500,000 Iraqi children who died as a [u]direct[/u] result of American sanctions during the 90's ([i]to no effect[/i])? Isn't that basically laying siege to and killing via attrition hundreds of thousands based on nothing but their nationality...?


Would you celebrate the death of the men who ordered these acts?
[/quote]

You are supposed to be the leaders of the developed world. Not just the enemy of some crazy (nazi) nutcase. You are our example. What's your example? Beatin' the shit out of anyone in your way?

That's fine. But as soon as I have something to hurt you. GTFO of my way.
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[quote][color="#1C2837"][size="2"]Would you celebrate the death of the men who ordered these acts? [/size][/color][/quote]

If the goal was to do so because they are evil men, yes. If not, perhaps not. Am I happy about the innocents killed in Iraq during the hunt for Saddam Hussein? No, of course not. But at least now he can't commit atrocities any more. The innocent deaths along the way are a tragedy, and should not be trivialised, of course not, their lives are every bit as important as those killed on 9/11, for example. But can Hussein systematically attempt to exterminate entire races now? No. Something worthwhile has come out of the war, not just misery and death. Lives have been saved as well as lost.

There is a slight difference between people who cause terrible things to happen because of poor execution of good intentions than people whose GOAL it is to cause terrible things to happen. I can't comment on Vietnam or the 90's sanctions as I am highly ignorant of the circumstances of those events. But the recent war I can. I'm not trying to paint George W. Bush as a saint or anything, I dislike him as much as anyone, and I won't feel bad when he dies. But I won't celebrate either because at the end of the day, his existence was not dedicated to the destruction of peaceful people. This is where the likes of Bush differ from the likes of Hussein and bin Laden, who felt exactly that was their duty.
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Intentions doesn't mean Jack shit. Actions do. Maybe The intentions of Churchill was nice, when they bombed Drezda, Americans were nice when they bombed the shit out of Tokio/Hiroshima/Nagasaki. I don't give a shit. It wasn't any better than the Holocaust IMHO just the numbers were different.
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[quote name='szecs' timestamp='1304341034' post='4805392']
Intentions doesn't mean Jack shit. Actions do. Maybe The intentions of Churchill was nice, when they bombed Drezda, Americans were nice when they bombed the shit out of Tokio/Hiroshima/Nagasaki. I don't give a shit. It wasn't any better than the Holocaust IMHO just the numbers were different.
[/quote]

I agree, mostly. I can agree that all those events you mentioned were horrible, horrible deeds. Intentions only come into it after the people responsible are gone. If you can ask yourself the question "Is there likely to be less death and misery in the world now that this person is no longer in it?" and the answer comes back "yes", that seems like a good enough reason to be happy. Do you not think? That's why I celebrate (if you can call it that, I'm not cheering in the streets, I simply admit that it makes me feel a little happy) Bin Laden's death. Not because I think it is justice, but because I think 'he can no longer orchestrate and fund attacks that kill thousands'. I don't see what part of that attitude is such a bad thing that people find reprehensible.
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[quote name='szecs' timestamp='1304341034' post='4805392']
Intentions doesn't mean Jack shit. Actions do. Maybe The intentions of Churchill was nice, when they bombed Drezda, Americans were nice when they bombed the shit out of Tokio/Hiroshima/Nagasaki. I don't give a shit. It wasn't any better than the Holocaust IMHO just the numbers were different.
[/quote]

You know what bothers me? That they can drop a letter inside your toilet telling you that they can drop a letter inside your toilet but they can't wipe the genocides out of this world without killing thousands of innocent civilians. I give a fuck about the MILLONS comunism killed BEFORE That's the buried past. The US sold me all this shit about superman and the league of justice, Transformers and the like. They better stand up for it or give me my hours of consuming their propaganda back.
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[quote name='Fox89' timestamp='1304341554' post='4805397']I agree, mostly. I can agree that all those events you mentioned were horrible, horrible deeds. Intentions only come into it after the people responsible are gone. If you can ask yourself the question "Is there likely to be less death and misery in the world now that this person is no longer in it?" and the answer comes back "yes", that seems like a good enough reason to be happy. Do you not think? That's why I celebrate (if you can call it that, I'm not cheering in the streets, I simply admit that it makes me feel a little happy) Bin Laden's death. Not because I think it is justice, but because I think 'he can no longer orchestrate and fund attacks that kill thousands'. I don't see what part of that attitude is such a bad thing that people find reprehensible. [/quote]

The hipocrisy of it.
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[quote name='forsandifs' timestamp='1304341708' post='4805399']

The hipocrisy of it.
[/quote]

What's hypocritical about it? I feel confident in saying it would be fair to apply the same attitude to anyone.
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I agree that accidents happen, but if those figures about the wars against terrorist are correct, then they're not accidents. It's the US Army, the most fuckingest advanced army in the Universe for Christ's sake!

Back to topic: I agree that this event is not much more than an "ahham, okay" event.
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[font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][size="2"][quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1304342673' post='4805409']
[quote name='Osama Bin Laden']I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy.
The situation was like a crocodile meeting a helpless child, powerless except for his screams. Does the crocodile understand a conversation that doesn't include a weapon? And the whole world saw and heard but it didn't respond.
In those difficult moments many hard-to-describe ideas bubbled in my soul, but in the end they produced an intense feeling of rejection of tyranny, and gave birth to a strong resolve to punish the oppressors.
[/quote][/quote]

You know what. I know shit about that guy beyond what the cnn and fox news reported. I might even have crossed eyes with him right here at the airport (99.99% chances I didn't).

One thing is for sure: He, all the civilians involved and the american soldiers who fought valiantly didn't deserve to die for those words you quoted.

You see. Even a cockroach can realize the truth (it has 3 brains!).

EDIT: You widen the quote while I replied. My post was intended for what I quoted.[/size][/font]
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Best quote evar:
[quote][i]Original Post by Katie from Yahoo![/i]
[b]Breaking News: Hide-and-Seek World Champion loses his title[/b][/quote]
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[quote][color="#1C2837"][size="2"]If you're going to claim that good intentions make it ok, it's obvious that Bin Laden didn't think he was committing evil, he really did believe he had good intentions.[/size][/color][/quote]

Sorry, I never wanted to give the impression that good intentions make it OK. I understand that most people who do evil deeds honestly believe they are doing the right thing, whether it be God's will, or fighting for freedom against those they perceive as oppressors. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter and all that. And I put my argument badly.

The major point was rather: he was a person who caused and incited murder against the innocent. And he was the sort of person who, if you left him alone and gave him the opportunity, would do it again and again. And I think his death means one less highly influential person doing those things, which I think we can all agree, regardless of whether you actually feel it is cause for 'celebration', is for the net benefit of everyone.

[quote][color=#1C2837][size=2]If you agree ok to celebrate the deaths of people who "orchestrate and fund attacks that kill thousands"[/size][/color][/quote]

That's not [b]quite[/b] the context in which I said that though... that definitely wasn't my 'criteria' for celebrating a death to be 'OK'.
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While Osama might have believed he was acting for the benefit of weaker people who he felt had fallen victim to the USAs/The Wests aggressive foreign policy what happened on 9/11 can't be compared to civilians being killed in Afghanistan or Iraq. With the exception of odd events civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan were killed through collateral damage.

This doesn't make their death right or justified but they are worlds away from OBL flying planes in to the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. He/AQ actively targeted civilians with a few exceptions.
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[quote name='Fox89' timestamp='1304343648' post='4805415']
he was a person who caused and incited murder against the innocent. And he was the sort of person who, if you left him alone and gave him the opportunity, would do it again and again. And I think his death means one less highly influential person doing those things, which I think we can all agree, regardless of whether you actually feel it is cause for 'celebration', is for the net benefit of everyone.
[/quote]

George W. Bush is accountable for the death of way more innocent people than Osama Bin Laden, having he (Bush) stated less understandable reasons for what he ordered. Should all people of the world unite in order to kill him (George W. Bush) and whoever defends him? (AND CELEBRATE?)

That's your reasoning? That's what at least I am trying to highlight here. That in the end, the only truth that matters is the truth of those who hold the biggest gun and portrais the scariest macho posture. Which is bullshit.
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[quote name='Fox89' timestamp='1304343648' post='4805415']
The major point was rather: he was a person who caused and incited murder against the innocent. And he was the sort of person who, if you left him alone and gave him the opportunity, would do it again and again. And I think his death means one less highly influential person doing those things, which I think we can all agree, regardless of whether you actually feel it is cause for 'celebration', is for the net benefit of everyone.[/quote]...but if you're on the other side of the fence -- if your family was slaughtered in Fallujah -- those same statements would apply to the commander in chief of the US military... so you're advocating the assassination of the POTUS...

[quote name='Smeagol' timestamp='1304343707' post='4805416']
With the exception of odd events civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan were killed through collateral damage.[/quote]You don't reach a figure of 90% "collateral damage" from "odd events"!
Systematic and deliberate targeting of both civilians and civilian infrastructure causes figures that high. There's plenty of reports of snipers being ordered to fire on any civilian matching a vague description, or veterans returning to tell of how they were ordered to "clear the street" full of women and children with their M4 carbine, or how populated residential areas were shelled by tanks to draw out insurgents, or gunships firing on 'suspicious' crowds, etc...

BTW, the phrase "collateral damage" was coined during Vietnam by US propagandists to use in place of "civilian casualties" to downplay incidents when reported back home. It's pretty sad to see it being used as if it means "accidental deaths".[quote]This doesn't make their death right or justified but they are worlds away from OBL flying planes in to the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. He/AQ actively targeted civilians with a few exceptions.[/quote]As above, there's plenty of cases of US troops deliberately firing on civilians. Prior to 9/11 OBL did mainly target US diplomatic or military targets, not civilians. Also, sadly, we'll never actually see OBL found guilty of 9/11 unless he's tried in absence, and he'll remain only accused of it.
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