The power of persuasion is too powerful?

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59 comments, last by DarklyDreaming 12 years, 11 months ago
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First of all, might I suggest that you don't lock people up in rooms? :/ That's unnecessarily harsh imo especially to someone who is naturally panic prone. I think a wiser reaction would be to adopt a more zen like attitude in that situation.

Anyway, on to your point. I am in between your viewpoint on this and capn_midnight's. I think that kid could become "normal" socially, but it will be very difficult for him. He will have to work very hard on his weaknesses to overcome them, if he can ever even figure out how to.

Also I disagree with capn's viewpoint that people aren't more intelligent in some areas than others. Memory is an obvious example imo. Some people do have photographic memories. I do not and I am 99% sure I will never develop one, not because I think its impossible for me to do so but because it would require a lot of effort I will probably put into other things. On the other hand most people with such amazing memories had it essentially gifted to them.
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[quote name='SteveDeFacto' timestamp='1305405421' post='4810834']...


First of all, might I suggest that you don't lock people up in rooms? :/ That's unnecessarily harsh imo especially to someone who is naturally panic prone. I think a wiser reaction would be to adopt a more zen like attitude in that situation.

Anyway, on to your point. I am in between your viewpoint on this and capn_midnight's. I think that kid could become "normal" socially, but it will be very difficult for him. He will have to work very hard on his weaknesses to overcome them, if he can ever even figure out how to.

Also I disagree with capn's viewpoint that people aren't more intelligent in some areas than others. Memory is an obvious example imo. Some people do have photographic memories. I do not and I am 99% sure I will never develop one, not because I think its impossible for me to do so but because it would require a lot of effort I will probably put into other things. On the other hand most people with such amazing memories had it essentially gifted to them.
[/quote]
"Memory" isn't a subject matter on which to study, and autodidacticism is certainly an outlier quality, just as much as autism. You *can* learn skills to improve your short term recall, and long term recall is a matter of quantity of study. If looking to make value judgments about the efficacy of certain skills over others, we have to look at the average person using those skills, not the exceptional and statistical anomalies.

[Formerly "capn_midnight". See some of my projects. Find me on twitter tumblr G+ Github.]

There is no such thing as naturally born talent, [/quote]Aye, its proven that IQ etc are heritables(?)

I believe
For a man, the gift of the gab is prolly the most important trait to have, higher than intelligence, goodlooks, body stength etc
For a woman, good looks I'ld say would be the most important trait

Both a quite sad (esp the looks thing for woman), but hey thats the world we live in

[quote name='SteveDeFacto' timestamp='1305405421' post='4810834']
I know someone who is clinically diagnosed with [font="Arial"][color="#1c2837"]asperger's syndrome and I'm going to tell you now he was completely unable to detect when I was becoming annoyed with him. I eventually locked him in the other room and ignored him for 2 hours until his dad came to pick him up. Yet even after that he never picked up on my irritation towards him and suggested that we hang out more often. He actually is very smart as well but he is completely unable to pick up on what others are thinking. If you are suggesting that he could become normal or above normal through training I'm seriously doubtful...[/font]

Oh come on, the dude has autism. You can't expect to use an autistic person as an example of what normal skill acquisition is like. No, I don't expect the handicapped to be capable of the same things as fit. I don't expect a paraplegic to ever run in the Olympics, no matter how hard they try. On the other hand, I don't expect a blind man to become a painter, but it does happen.

So what are you saying? Henry in your original scenario has a mental deficiency of some kind, rather than a skill deficiency? If that is the case, how does that at all prove that persuasive skills are somehow more "powerful" than academic skills? And you still haven't addressed the fact that your own arbitrary scenario tries to make John out to be a dolt, and yet he still manages to get shit done and change the world.
You say,
"[color="#1C2837"][John] reaches out to his talented friends and co-workers who admire him and he persuades a few of them to join his company." -- That's just good management! A successful company depends on more than just the efforts of one person. Get over this fantasy that you can live in your head and all by your lonesome become a millionaire.
[color="#1C2837"]"Over the next few years John is able to make a profit..." -- yeah, because he's a good manager.
[color="#1C2837"]"...despite making many blunders..." -- that happens to everyone, nobody knows exactly what to do all the time. Henry blundered on how to get funding and how to manage people. A much bigger blunder than "didn't make the thing right the first time".
[color="#1C2837"]"...he was always able to find the necessary funding to cover them." -- now you're contradicting your own scenario. If the funding is covering up the losses, then he never made a profit. So which way do you want your contrived scenario to go?
[/quote]


No in my scenario Henry was just below average. In my opinion being clinically diagnosed with some type of disorder simply means you are at a point where you meet the criteria of that disorder and you can absolutely have some aspects of the disorder without meeting the criteria of that disorder. John simply was able to hire smart people to work for him and make him a profit. In the end his fateful and talented employees and his personal relationships with the clients and investors allowed him to make up for any blunders he made.

[quote name='SteveDeFacto' timestamp='1305405421' post='4810834']...


First of all, might I suggest that you don't lock people up in rooms? :/ That's unnecessarily harsh imo especially to someone who is naturally panic prone. I think a wiser reaction would be to adopt a more zen like attitude in that situation.

Anyway, on to your point. I am in between your viewpoint on this and capn_midnight's. I think that kid could become "normal" socially, but it will be very difficult for him. He will have to work very hard on his weaknesses to overcome them, if he can ever even figure out how to.

Also I disagree with capn's viewpoint that people aren't more intelligent in some areas than others. Memory is an obvious example imo. Some people do have photographic memories. I do not and I am 99% sure I will never develop one, not because I think its impossible for me to do so but because it would require a lot of effort I will probably put into other things. On the other hand most people with such amazing memories had it essentially gifted to them.
[/quote]

I didn't lock him up in a room, I locked him out of my room. I was annoyed with him because I was going to go home and work on something but instead he pushed himself on me and forced me to take him to my apartment to "hang out." When he came over it was basically me sitting there for an hour watching him play video games on my computer.
We'll some treatments for [font="Arial"][color="#1c2837"]asperger's is just that, to teach them social skill through intensive role playing. It's of course reserved for mild cases, full blow asperger's there isn't much you can do. Social skills is one of the determining factors of success, yes its been well documented in many studies. This isn't some new phenomena which came out with industrialization or anything, this is a core and fundamental aspect of humanity. There wouldn't be humanity if family groups killed each other upon first contact. Empathy, social intelligence and the ability to read non-verbal signals was selected for a million years or more.. We are all decedents of the best socializer, organizers and wittiest of our ancestors. Genghis Khan has over 15 million [/font][font="Arial"][color="#1c2837"]decedents, he didn't become successful because he was the smartest or strongest but [size=2]because[size=2] he had the charisma and [size=2]organizational[size=2] skills to unify the tribes of Mongolia (luck and being born into a chieftain clans helped i'm sure).. [/font]
[font="Arial"][color="#1c2837"]
[/font]
[font="Arial"][color="#1c2837"]It was thought that after say 10 years old you don't form new brain cells anymore.. We'll until they found new brains cells in adults from radiological tagging.. People continuously learn and develop skills throughout their life. (numerous studies show this, even people as old as 80 can learn new skills) Unless some neurological disorder prevents them from it, most people are fully capable of developing social skills after childhood. Of course to what extent they can develop and to what level of competency, that will vary.. There is indeed a window where children pick up these social skills intuitively and those who do will be much more hmm.. fluent in them but that doesn't preclude ever learning them after childhood, no study shows this that i am aware of.[/font]
[font="Arial"][color="#1c2837"]
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[font="Arial"][color="#1c2837"]-ddn[/font]


I know someone who is clinically diagnosed with [font="Arial"][color="#1c2837"]asperger's syndrome and I'm going to tell you now he was completely unable to detect when I was becoming annoyed with him. I eventually locked him in the other room and ignored him for 2 hours until his dad came to pick him up. Yet even after that he never picked up on my irritation towards him and suggested that we hang out more often. He actually is very smart as well but he is completely unable to pick up on what others are thinking.[/font]


Were you annoyed because you knew he had such diagnosis? Or were you at first so horribly annoyed and later when someone told you you went: "of course, that explains it"?

Power of persuasion works on oneself as well. Under some approaches it's considered the dominant factor in one's behavior.

If you enter a new social group and someone told you a certain person is of royal heritage and rich, you would behave differently than if someone were presented as similarly inferior to you.

[font="Arial"][color="#1c2837"] If you are suggesting that he could become normal or above normal through training I'm seriously doubtful...[/quote]Define normal. People only need to fit into their immediate social circle (family, job, friends).[/font]

No in my scenario Henry was just below average. In my opinion being clinically diagnosed with some type of disorder simply means you are at a point where you meet the criteria of that disorder and you can absolutely have some aspects of the disorder without meeting the criteria of that disorder. John simply was able to hire smart people to work for him and make him a profit. In the end his fateful and talented employees and his personal relationships with the clients and investors allowed him to make up for any blunders he made.


I think that there's some heavy "woe is me" focus for, um, "Henry". It's very common, and there are a host of ways that it can manifest itself. But there are a couple of things to consider.

First, as others have pointed out, neither John's nor Henry's skills are very valuable in and of themselves. John applied his skills in such a way that he was able to be very successful. Henry did not. John (from the sound of things) couldn't design a good product to save his life. So he hired people who could, and then used his interpersonal skills to make that good product a commercial success, and he reaped the rewards of that success.

Henry doesn't do a good job of managing employees, making sales, or handling the customer service line, but he can make an awesome product. Why can he not hire people to compensate for his weaker areas, like John did? There's no reason he couldn't pitch his idea to investors and get a business partner who could handle those things for him. Another John, perhaps. Instead, despite "making all the right moves", Henry arbitrarily fails for no particular reason. His employee retention is poor-- why? And why is that enough to cripple his company despite his awesome product? Why is he (apparently) handling his own sales, when by any outside reasoning (and, I would assume, Henry's own introspective prowess) he is so terrible at doing so?

People will work with other people, even if those other people have poor social skills, if there's money at the other side. Henry must have been pretty bad to drive away everyone who might have helped him in the critical areas of running his business which he himself couldn't handle. Or, what is perhaps more likely, Henry didn't bother to delegate those tasks at all, but insisted on remaining in the thick of things and inflicting his weaknesses on his business directly, all for the sake of his (very real, but situationally irrelevant) strengths.

So your declaration that Henry has made all the right moves is demonstrably false according to other parts of the scenario. Not only should Henry not be bitter that John is more successful than him, he should not be bitter about his general lack of success. Henry, fueled perhaps by some test scores that he got in high school, seems to have felt himself to be the apex of everything and refused to either improve himself in his deficient areas or delegate tasks related to those areas to people who were better suited. John wasn't hired as an engineer, he was hired as a manager, and to try and cross over would have been a disaster for him. Henry was an engineer, not a manager, and he did try to cross over-- and it was a disaster for him.

Second, holding up an example of a John who happened to be successful doesn't really compensate for all of the other people who are socially gifted, if not academically, who are less successful than John or Henry. There are a ton of people who peak in high school, and never manage to leverage their skills into anything of consequence. And I'd bet that "smart" people, however you want to define that term, are underrepresented in that group.

Third, your description of John's power of persuasion either completely discounts the effort that John has to put into it or it raises that persuasiveness to the level of a cartoon super villain. If John can mind-control others with psychic powers to do his bidding and lay fortunes at his feet, then yes, I would say that his skills are too powerful, as compared with Henry's. But if instead John isn't from a comic book, things look very different.

Henry probably has a number of academic things come very easily to him, even if he has to study sometimes. That would be reflected in his much-vaunted test scores and the quality/complexity of the work that he produces. John is naturally personable, reflected in his large number of friends and ease in building and maintaining interpersonal relationships. If John penned a post on the internet complaining that ability to do well on exams is too powerful compared to interpersonal skills, you would tell him to study harder or more or hire help. Why would the inverse situation be any different?

-------R.I.P.-------

Selective Quote

~Too Late - Too Soon~


Also I disagree with capn's viewpoint that people aren't more intelligent in some areas than others. Memory is an obvious example imo. Some people do have photographic memories. I do not and I am 99% sure I will never develop one, not because I think its impossible for me to do so but because it would require a lot of effort I will probably put into other things. On the other hand most people with such amazing memories had it essentially gifted to them.

I agree with capn_midnight on this one. I think photographic memory is an outlier just like autism. So, while its unlikely anybody can learn to have photographic memory (just like its unlikely you can learn to be a savant), I think memory can be trained.

I am slowly doing just that (trying to anyway, maybe I'll change my opinion if I don't succeed). I have an amazing memory for stuff that is unimportant and just doesn't matter (I can often remember close to exact quotes from movies or TV shows that I've seen many years ago), but a terrible terrible memory for important stuff, like peoples names, dates and ordinary things like that. At the end of the day, I force myself to try and remember things from throughout the day - what shoes was somebody wearing, what was the persons name etc. Personally, I think everyone has an adequate memory (you know, unless theres something physically wrong of course) and the rest is just a matter of observation and training your brain to retain these things. For example, I don't care about what shoes somebody wears, so I won't notice it and won't remember it. I'm hoping that by the end of my experiment I will remember all sorts of random things that I usually forget and will be much more observant too. So far, it seems to be (very slowly) working.


"Memory" isn't a subject matter on which to study, and autodidacticism is certainly an outlier quality, just as much as autism. You *can* learn skills to improve your short term recall, and long term recall is a matter of quantity of study.
Off topic ----- but memory is indeed an area that can be studied on it's own, like math, or poetry, or social interaction. With sufficient study of memory itself, one can achieve and demonstrate what would appear to a layman to be a "photographic memory". There are many schools throughout history that have had this on their curriculum, and IMO it should be on our modern school's curricula too (along with logic)...

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